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Archive 2007 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

  
 
bcaslis
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p.20 #1 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


One comment I'd like to add to that. I agree with all the pluses for the 1D3. To be honest, I take pictures for fun, not money (at least not right now). I don't use AI Servo enough for misses with the 1D3 to be life or death. But what drives me crazy are random issues with single shots. I will infrequently get images that are completely OOF. More frequently I'll get shots that aren't focused on the point I selected but something else. I've done lots of lens tests and such not because I like to but I'm trying to figure out why.

My main reason for a 1D3 is better focus and better body build than the 5D I had previously but with the same or better image IQ. That's the reason for me why the AF just drives me crazy. I'd be fine if it would tell me it can't focus on what I asked. But I'm not satisfied with it telling me it's in focus when it's not.



Dec 29, 2007 at 01:19 AM
Pixel Perfect
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p.20 #2 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Jeff wrote:
So Brian, what's the verdict on the D3? Is it as fantastic as everyone is raving about?

I have to admit that the D3/D300 combo are my perfect duo in cameras, but I hate to think the money I'd lose in recreating the 24-70 and 70-200 in the Nikon versions.


Would you be out of pocket too much? The Canon glass will sell for a very good price and the Nikon equivalents are similarly priced to the Canon. For me it's really only the superteles I'd worry about as the Nikon glass is much dearer.



Dec 29, 2007 at 04:14 AM
Red Grainger
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p.20 #3 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Jeff wrote:
I'm not certain that even Canon yet knows what will be done next, and I certainly have no specific knowledge of additional specific hardware defects. I'd agree with you that getting a large number of repaired cameras in the field is critical, the results of which could directly affect any further overt action on Canon's part. If I were you I'd take a good, long, detailed, and critical look at RG's last set of images, as they illustrate what some of the remaining issues are. The cause(s) of them remains to be revealed, but many of us have our suspicions,
...Show more

Jeff,
I'm afraid your last statement regarding a Mark V or an "n" version is the most likely end to this unfortunate Canon debacle. They can never overcome the negative publicity and stigma of the Mark III autofocus issue. Now add to that the possibility or just the hint of another set of issues and the camera is dead. I lost a few dollars selling my Mark III but I'm glad I did it. I will not buy another. I have just purchased two 40D's just to fill in until I can make a decision on the Ds but now I'll probably wait and see what happens to the future of the current 1 series. On a purely business basis, Canon cannot afford to give up very much market share on its flagship bodies. The profit margins are just too thin. They are far to clever to "not" introduce a successor quickly. I know that's not what people want to hear but I think it is all but certain to play out that way. I would get rid of my Mark III (as I have done) and make do with whatever I can until the next chapter is written. Jeff I think you are being realistic in suggesting that Canon may simply not be able to fix the Mark III due to an underlying basic design flaw. Time will well.
Cheers-Red



Dec 29, 2007 at 07:03 AM
gbee
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p.20 #4 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Whatever about the 24~70, take my word for it that the 70~200 ƒ2.8 VR Nikkor beats the Canon bazooka, by a fair margin in all respects.

Buy new though as the early models all had plastic rail problems, just like the Coolscan 2000s ~ that's the biggest problem with Nikon actually, they make cheap stuff ~ Canon's build quality is almost over-engineered in the 1D series.

Jeff wrote:
, but I hate to think the money I'd lose in recreating the 24-70 and 70-200 in the Nikon versions. .




Dec 29, 2007 at 08:13 AM
Hrow
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p.20 #5 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


bcaslis wrote:
One comment I'd like to add to that. I agree with all the pluses for the 1D3. To be honest, I take pictures for fun, not money (at least not right now). I don't use AI Servo enough for misses with the 1D3 to be life or death. But what drives me crazy are random issues with single shots. I will infrequently get images that are completely OOF. More frequently I'll get shots that aren't focused on the point I selected but something else. I've done lots of lens tests and such not because I like to but I'm trying
...Show more


I'm in exactly the same boat and bought my 1DMkIII for the same reason. Just got mine back from Canon yesterday so if the sun pops out a little today I'll do some testing and see how it fared.



Dec 29, 2007 at 09:08 AM
Hrow
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p.20 #6 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Jeff, I shot with Nikons for 25+ years and switched to Canon. I have been pondering a switch back as well but my main reason for not doing so is the IS lenses. I have grown quite fond of the 24-105 IS as a walk around lens and the 300 mm F4 IS spends huge amounts of time on the camera when hunting butterflies. Even though the shutter speeds are high enough to be out of the range for the IS to be super effective, the stable image in the VF really helps me.
If Nikon releases equivalents for these two I'm gone.

PS. Would still hate to leave the 70-200 F4 IS behind. Great travel telephoto.



Dec 29, 2007 at 09:15 AM
mill4570
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p.20 #7 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken




Jeff,
I'm afraid your last statement regarding a Mark V or an "n" version is the most likely end to this unfortunate Canon debacle. They can never overcome the negative publicity and stigma of the Mark III autofocus issue. Now add to that the possibility or just the hint of another set of issues and the camera is dead. I lost a few dollars selling my Mark III but I'm glad I did it. I will not buy another. I have just purchased two 40D's just to fill in until I can make a decision on the Ds but now I'll probably wait and see what happens to the future of the current 1 series. On a purely business basis, Canon cannot afford to give up very much market share on its flagship bodies. The profit margins are just too thin. They are far to clever to "not" introduce a successor quickly. I know that's not what people want to hear but I think it is all but certain to play out that way. I would get rid of my Mark III (as I have done) and make do with whatever I can until the next chapter is written. Jeff I think you are being realistic in suggesting that Canon may simply not be able to fix the Mark III due to an underlying basic design flaw. Time will well.
Cheers-Red


Red,

I can only hope you are wrong on this one. I agree the stakes are high and as such, Canon can not afford to abandon the MKIII. The release of an "N" version later next year would be received as Canon dumping the "problamatic" MKIII. The same would be true of an early release of the MKIV. I know I am starting to sound like a broken record, but this isn't a $90 P&S. This is their "flagship camera introduced in a banner year". This is the camera they want every wire service, newspaper, magazine, and small business man in the world using. Besides, as expensive as it is, it is still a vehicle to sell lenses.

IMHO, the only way Canon could start over with a IIIn or a MKIV anytime soon, would be to offer to swap cameras with all MKIII users for $500 or less. Canon needs to keep Canon users and the introduction of the MKIII replacement next year would probably be the last straw even for some heavily invested in Canon gear.

By the way, I'm still a "Canon fan boy" and it is my intention to give Canon more time to completely fix the MKIII.


Jeff,

I have had absolutely "zero" problems with my III in one shot mode. I have done weddings with this camera and the results are superb. In Servo AF, I occassionally get some of the "soft or ghosted images" you mentioned. I have inspected those pictures and many show the ground and the plane of focus clearly dead on the player. In other words the camera did not miss the focus nor was there camera movement, but the image is soft and I didn't really no why until you mentioned the ghosting. Also in Servo AF, during a burst, the camera might jump several feet ahead of the subject and it may take two frames for it to recover. Not even f11 would have saved those frames. I am hoping both of these issues will be taken care of with the fix. Neither has stop me from using the camera in certain conditions, but it is the reason I haven't taken your "buffer full" challenge.

For now, I still have my fingers crossed and my faith in Canon, but Canon Fan Boy cards may be become as rare as Ty Cobb cards depending on Canon's next move.

Richard K.




Dec 29, 2007 at 10:33 AM
SoundHound
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p.20 #8 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Dear Brian:

Thanks for your observations! As I understand you the D3 with it's 24-70 zoom (and proper ACR/PS) will have better IQ than a MK III with Canon's zoom with the bonus of a little less noise at 3200 and 6400. To my knowledge your's are the 1st, direct, comparison of the D3 to the Mk III. I am taking delivery of a D3 and 24-70 next week. A little bit worried now since I shoot dancers in low light. But I use single sensor Ai Servo-maybe that will help.

I have no intention of abandoning Canon-so I am hoping to train myself to use these 2 bodies interchangeably. I plan to keep the D3 at least until Canon's next sports/action body "one ups" it. Also Canon's new 5D Mk II will, predictably, have the best IQ of any DSLR except the 21Mp 1Ds MK III.

I think there's a 14-24 in my future and for that reason alone the D3 might be the platform to mount this extraordinary lens (and a few other special Nikkors such as the dreamy 70-200 which I was loath to sell after I moved from the D70 to 5D). But there's a Nikkor G to EOS adapter in the works which would (with MF) be the cat's meow on the 1Ds MK III. And so the tantalizing drama continues.




Dec 29, 2007 at 11:43 AM
Red Grainger
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p.20 #9 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Richard,
I agree with you entirely about the psycological effect of a Mark IV or N version on the Series 1 community. I suggested a long time ago that one day CAnon would have to deal with the result of their marketing a "not ready" for prime time body. There are several ways they could do this and not only maintain loyalty but increase it. Yes, a buy back program is one way and maybe the fairest. Actaully BMW once bought back one of my cars (for what I paid for it) and apologized saying "it was not the automobile they had hoped it would be". Unfortunately, I have not been impressed with Canon's commitment to customer loyalty. I would switch back to Nikon but, cost aside, I really do like Canon glass much better. Certainly each hardware recall costs Canon significant money. I have been told the margin on these bodies is small and would guess that the profit is all but gone. Canon is in business to make money so at some point they will have to cut their losses and introduce a less flawed product. One thing they cannot do is to ride this injured horse into the ground. Just my two cents, I'm sure I have offended someone...I apologize but this issue can have only one outcome.
Happy New Year Mate-Red



Dec 29, 2007 at 12:28 PM
Jeff
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p.20 #10 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Of note, today I overnighted a DVD of 'post-fix' RAW AI Servo images to VA at CITS' request. It will be very interesting to hear the results of their inquiry, as they will need to give me some sort of feedback as to the reason for the rather poor (~55%, on average) hit rate. I still say they are going to try to say the camera focused on the (rather small) snowflakes...

Anyway, in going back through my images last night, I started thinking some more about my most recent AI Servo tests from my supposedly 'fixed' MkIII, and it prompted me to go back and completely re-read all of Rob's 8500-word December 10 update.

A couple of things that gave me pause in Rob's most recent report on 'Blue Dot' MkIII's, quoted below:

Q. Are there any settings that can help squeeze the best possible AI Servo autofocus performance out of the EOS-1D Mark III?

Yes, one: C. FnIII-7 [AF Microadjustment]. This setting's primary purpose is to enable the photographer to compensate for focus calibration errors in the body or combination of the body and attached lens. Its hidden purpose is to improve the EOS-1D Mark III's tracking performance. The Phoenix testing with Canon included shooting sequences with an AF Microadjustment amount of 0, -1 or -5 applied (via the [Same amount for all lenses] option). The inescapable conclusion was that the -1 sequences

If we'd rattled off only a handful of 0 to -1 comparisons, this result could have been chalked up to a testing fluke. But because we shot and compared dozens of sequences and could see that the same slightly better performance in the -1 frames is consistently there, we've gone on to shoot almost all real-world peak action with -1 set, and recommend that you try doing the same.

To be clear, dialing in -1 for AF Microadjustment in this case is not about compensating for focus calibration error. The bodies and lenses we used to test the impact of AF Microadjustment were all calibrated by Canon USA or Canon in Japan.

Nor is it about making all photos be frontfocused slightly (minus side adjustments give the focus a slight frontward push). Instead, it's about making more properly focused or very nearly properly focused frames when the camera is tracking. The weirdest part of all is that the most notable difference between 0 and -1 sequences is that the -1 sequences show fewer instances of the camera focusing too far in front of the moving subject.

The tracking improvements brought about by this AF Microadjustment change are slight, but they sure seem to be real. We can't explain why this is so, and we also can't take credit for the idea: it came straight from Canon, as part of the testing regimen specified starting with the October Phoenix trip.

The suggestion to dial in a -1 AF Microadjustment raises a few questions:

What do you do if you already have this Custom Function set to compensate for focus calibration error with one or more of your lenses?

Should the -1 AF Microadjustment be set only when shooting things that move?

When photographing static subjects, but with the autofocus mode set to AI Servo, is it better to have the camera set to 0 or -1?

Do those who use One Shot autofocus mode choose 0 or -1?

In the future, will Canon somehow insert this AF Microadjustment trick directly into the EOS-1D Mark III's autofocus algorithm - perhaps by applying -1 AF Microadjustment compensation automatically when the camera senses subject motion?


The answer to all of these questions is the same: we don't know. What we've chosen to do for now is set -1 when shooting action, then switch over to 0 when shooting portraits. We can see that -1 is the way to go for sports, but we haven't done enough comparing of the difference between 0 and -1 when shooting portraits and other static things to know which setting is better or if in fact it makes any real world difference at all.
...Show more

I still continue to find this whole '-1 AF Microadjustment' thing very odd, and haven't yet tried it on my camera. It makes me suspect that Canon may have written some sort of software kludge into that single setting, but I have no idea why they'd even need to use such a strategy. My 'bad' AI Servo results most often showed front-focusing of 6" to 1 foot, so perhaps I need to try this non-publicized strategy of Canon's. Either way, I don't know what to think (until I try it, that is).

Otherwise, our experience has been that - like other 1-series Canons before it - the EOS-1D Mark III will deliver the strongest raw autofocus performance in configurations that are more basic. Assuming that the autofocus point can be kept on the subject almost all the time, manual selection of the centre AF point is the way to go. Our confidence about this was bolstered by the fact that Canon's testing regimen for the Phoenix trips called for only centre AF point shooting.

Interesting to note, for those testing their camera for AF oddities.

Finally, the fact that RG has not yet tested a 'fixed' MkIII makes me wonder just a bit. It's too bad they didn't give him that opportunity when testing the Blue Dot versions. It would be very interesting to know if most of the people not experiencing problems with their MkIII have assembly line iterations, or whether just as many 'fixed' versions are performing properly, at least for the subjects that are being shot.

I'd guess it's going to be awhile before RG hears from Canon (if ever), and thus awhile before we hear anything substantive from Rob.

Have a good weekend, y'all...

Jeff





Dec 29, 2007 at 12:38 PM
bcaslis
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p.20 #11 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


SoundHound wrote:
Dear Brian:

Thanks for your observations! As I understand you the D3 with it's 24-70 zoom (and proper ACR/PS) will have better IQ than a MK III with Canon's zoom with the bonus of a little less noise at 3200 and 6400. To my knowledge your's are the 1st, direct, comparison of the D3 to the Mk III. I am taking delivery of a D3 and 24-70 next week. A little bit worried now since I shoot dancers in low light. But I use single sensor Ai Servo-maybe that will help.



Yes, I think that's a fair summary. Keep in mind I'm sure not everyone will agree with this. The difference isn't big, but for high ISO shots, I would give the edge to the Nikon. At low ISO it's basically a wash. Note that there is a lot of flexibility in the JPEG output of Nikon including the picture styles, sharpness, and multiple NR options. There is someone on dpreview who has both a 1D3 and D3 and now prefers the Nikon because she can set it up to the right output options and get JPEGs with no PP needed for exactly what she wants. I personally haven't really used the JPEG output but you might want to experiment with it.

I think if you keep to the cross sensors in the center of the AF area then you should be OK in low light. Most comments I've read on dpreview (boy that place is really going downhill) indicate the it works OK in low light. There is one person that claims it doesn't work in low light wedding work, but he seems to be the only one claiming that so far.




Dec 29, 2007 at 01:39 PM
bcaslis
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p.20 #12 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


mill4570 wrote:
...
I have had absolutely "zero" problems with my III in one shot mode. I have done weddings with this camera and the results are superb.
...


Out of curiosity, you never get any problems in one shot? Do you ever get it seeming to lock focus on something of higher contrast that isn't in the AF point you selected? Do you ever use auto AF points? Not saying you aren't right, I'm just curious because the random things I see in one shot are the ones that drive me most batty.




Dec 29, 2007 at 01:43 PM
mill4570
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p.20 #13 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Brian,

I have never used the 45 pt AF auto selection in One Shot or Servo. I have on my MKIIn but only at air shows. I select an AF point manually, most often the center AF, or the right most cross point for portraits. On occassion, I will expand around the selected AF point to help in low contrast / low light situations. Trust me when I say the III will out perform my IIn in One Shot hands down no questions, using the cameras the way I do. But I am an event photographer, and 90% of my business is youth sports so I need to squeeze the max out of Servo at f2.8 to f4.0.

The biggest problem with this entire MKIII issue has been complete inconsistancy. Some cameras work perfectly while others work well in One Shot but not Servo. Some wouldn't focus in any mode, the list of complaints is so varied, I can see where Canon would have difficulty pinning it down. Some were able to tweek CF's and get an improvement, others saw no change in performance no matter what CF setting. Every camera seemed to behave differently and I base this reports from people I know can use this camera.

Bottom line, in my experience, with a single selected AF point, my camera will either focus properly or it will not focus at all (blinking AF light) in One Shot. This is true with my MkIIn as well.


By the way, you sound very impartial when it comes to the D3 vs the MkIII. That is pretty tough to find. Keep us posted.

Richard K.





Dec 29, 2007 at 02:49 PM
mill4570
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p.20 #14 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Red,

Not sure how you can offend anyone when you state your opinion the way you have done.

Happy New Year Mate,
Richard K.



Dec 29, 2007 at 03:08 PM
rbranan
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p.20 #15 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


well, i talked to a dealer today and he offered that the mark III is pretty much dead from a sales stand point. big line waiting for the 1Ds Mk3 and the Nikon D3 but if you want a 1D Mk III i can tell you where to find one....oh well, canon had a great run, a turkey was bound to pop up sometime. i would have think an "N" model is the only way out of this mess.


Dec 29, 2007 at 06:15 PM
jbear2000
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p.20 #16 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Maybe an "n" with a full refund/exchange on the MarkIII - that would be customer service, fairness and about the only way Canon is going to rebuild any image of trustworthiness!


Dec 30, 2007 at 05:39 AM
gbee
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p.20 #17 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


I dunno, my instinct tells me that Nikon hired all Canon's chief engineering staff and the sacked Nikon engineering staff were rehired by Canon who then made the MK3 to the same standards as they made the D1/D1h/D2/D2hD1x/D2x previously.

It's the only explanation.

jbear2000 wrote:
Maybe an "n" with a full refund/exchange on the MarkIII - that would be customer service, fairness and about the only way Canon is going to rebuild any image of trustworthiness!




Dec 30, 2007 at 09:50 AM
bcaslis
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p.20 #18 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


gbee wrote:
I dunno, my instinct tells me that Nikon hired all Canon's chief engineering staff and the sacked Nikon engineering staff were rehired by Canon who then made the MK3 to the same standards as they made the D1/D1h/D2/D2hD1x/D2x previously.

It's the only explanation.



You know it is kind of curious that in the 1D3 Canon went to spread out cross points like Nikon used in the D2, and Nikon went to center located cross points like in the 1D2.

I think both have pluses and minuses. I'd love to see RG compare results between the two. My completely non-professional opinion is that the D3 isn't as good with edge points, is a little slower acquiring focus, but a little more predictable in most focusing except for very low light. The 1D3 seems like a race horse, fast and powerful, but a little twitchy and more likely to do something completely unexpected.




Dec 30, 2007 at 01:55 PM
Red Grainger
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p.20 #19 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


bcaslis wrote:
You know it is kind of curious that in the 1D3 Canon went to spread out cross points like Nikon used in the D2, and Nikon went to center located cross points like in the 1D2.

I think both have pluses and minuses. I'd love to see RG compare results between the two. My completely non-professional opinion is that the D3 isn't as good with edge points, is a little slower acquiring focus, but a little more predictable in most focusing except for very low light. The 1D3 seems like a race horse, fast and powerful, but a little twitchy
...Show more
"more likely to do something completely unexpected". Yea, like poop on the track



Dec 30, 2007 at 03:08 PM
deadeyedick
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p.20 #20 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


My racehorse used to get the runs every time AI servo was announced.


Dec 30, 2007 at 06:08 PM
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