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Archive 2007 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken

  
 
jjrii
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p.19 #1 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Red Grainger wrote:
Wouldn't it be interesting to know how sales of Canon glass have been doing since the Mark III debacle?
Red


I can tell you they have sold 1 less 500 F4 L IS and 1 less 1DsMKIII. My 1DMkIII is in the shop and has been there since 12/6



Dec 27, 2007 at 12:29 PM
Matt Kerby
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p.19 #2 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Bruce Sawle wrote:
I did not notice any difference in my camera body pre and post fix. I have been happy with the camera since day one. Back in early June 505XXX. One shot has always been spot on. Servo has always seemed fine to me for what I shoot. Servo never seems as crisp as one shot on a stationary target but none the less it is still sharp. My biggest problem is I never feel 100% confident with my MK III even though I have had no issues. It is somthing always in the back of my head and it
...Show more

Funny you say that, mine works great too, but there is a confidence issue. although the more I shoot with it the more confident I feel. Also, since mine is working great I try not to pop into these threads....but here I am...so.
Same thing with my 50L, no problems with it, in fact one of my sharpest and best lenses at any aperture, but, I find myself doing tests on it after reading threads about BF and such to ease my mind...Kinda sucks that any copies have issues at all, let alone the broad spectrum of problems such as the ones in this thread.
Matt



Dec 27, 2007 at 12:33 PM
Iberian
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p.19 #3 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Jeff, on that last series of shots of the mountains were you shooting in AI Focus or One Shot? Also was IS on or off?

I have read that AI Focus when shooting statics is going to have issues, and from my limited experience this is true (I normally switch to One Shot when shooting statics so I cannot comment on how well it performs from memory)



Dec 27, 2007 at 12:46 PM
Deborah Kolt
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p.19 #4 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Ron Hew wrote:
I have the exact problem after upgrading 1.1.3 into my non fix M3 which is now in Canon and My blue dotted that came with FW 1.1.0 now upgraded to 1.1.3 works very well so I think the FW will not work on non fix body IMHO.



Sorry to hear you had the same problem with the upgrade, but it's reassuring that I'm not the only one. Wonder if there are any others out there. I suspect that you are right - the firmware has some conflict with an un-upgraded camera. Have you heard of any way to roll back upgrades, btw? I could swear that I read about this a year or so ago, but can't find it now.

Wish I hadn't updated my second body. The blue dot is working okay, but I could swear it focussed faster before the firmware update. It's not bad, just doesn't seem to snap into focus as quickly.
Deb



Dec 27, 2007 at 08:29 PM
Jim Victory
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p.19 #5 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Deborah Kolt wrote:
Sorry to hear you had the same problem with the upgrade, but it's reassuring that I'm not the only one. Wonder if there are any others out there. I suspect that you are right - the firmware has some conflict with an un-upgraded camera. Have you heard of any way to roll back upgrades, btw? I could swear that I read about this a year or so ago, but can't find it now.

Wish I hadn't updated my second body. The blue dot is working okay, but I could swear it focussed faster before the firmware update. It's not
...Show more

All you need to do is install the old firmware. e-mail me if you need a copy and I will e-mail it to you.

Jim



Dec 27, 2007 at 09:15 PM
Jeff
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p.19 #6 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Deborah Kolt wrote:
I'm also wondering if you noticed any relationship between the 1.1.3 firmware upgrade and your focus problems. My second MIII (blue dot out of the affected range) came with 1.1.0. I upgraded the firmware reluctantly.


I've noticed little difference, but then I didn't use the camera much after I updated the firmware, and the camera went to VA for the 'fix' shortly thereafter. I've had only occasional problems When not using AI Servo, probably in the range of what one might expect to be attributable to 'random' issues. AI Servo, however, is now the primary problem, but my camera only got the "stopper, submirror" replaced, not the additional part that some are getting.


Iberian wrote:
Jeff, on that last series of shots of the mountains were you shooting in AI Focus or One Shot? Also was IS on or off?


One-Shot, IS on. That single occurrence could easily be attributable to who-knows-what (as I alluded to above), but my AI Servo results are no different than before 'the fix'; i.e. poor {I'm calling it my '2-out-of-3 MkIII' ). FWIW, in One-Shot the camera is performing admirably enough that it would not be an issue, though I haven't had the time to test the 70-200 on other cameras in regard to the 'plane of focus' issue.



Edited by Jeff on Dec 27, 2007 at 08:50 PM GMT (Reason: added IS statement)



Dec 27, 2007 at 09:21 PM
Ron Hew
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p.19 #7 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Deborah Kolt wrote:
Sorry to hear you had the same problem with the upgrade, but it's reassuring that I'm not the only one. Wonder if there are any others out there. I suspect that you are right - the firmware has some conflict with an un-upgraded camera. Have you heard of any way to roll back upgrades, btw? I could swear that I read about this a year or so ago, but can't find it now.

Wish I hadn't updated my second body. The blue dot is working okay, but I could swear it focussed faster before the firmware update. It's not
...Show more

Hi Deb,
Mine can not grab focus properly after upgrading to 1.1.3 from the prototype FW 1.1.1 (IMO works much better for non fix body). This happens when subject is facing direct sunlight and AF was slow.

Mine (2nd 1D3) blue dotted came with FW 1.1.0 (without testing it) I upgraded to 1.1.3 and it works fine. BTW, I have no experience on how it perform with FW 1.1.0. AiServo works much better now with small bird but I have not tried the Ai + multi shots. Still waiting for the return of my "fix" 1D3.

Ron




Dec 27, 2007 at 10:17 PM
Iberian
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p.19 #8 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


This whole issue is just confusing. I am often estatic with the quality of the images I get from the mkIII and most of my paid work is with single shot so not much loss there but as your shot of the mountain shows even in one shot there are random exihibitions of poor performance. I have a shot that was well liked and a request for a 20x30 was put in. I know that only another photographer will notice but there is an area in the middle of the frame that is blurred. This is odd and occurs accross the whole frame yet above and below the shot is in focus. This is at f9 or something close to that IIRC not even close to a shallow DoF considering the distances involved. Yet I have hundred or so shots from a senior shoot that have zero camera related issues.

It is dissapointing that my second shooter with a 30D can pull down great shots consistently. The 1D has noticeable quality on the 30D but for 4500 it should. 95 out of 100 shots are great and that prevents me from going back but I am not a happy customer just a complacent customer.


*Just want to note that offering an image with a known flaw is something I hate. I stated that there was a flaw however they requested I don't point it out so they won't notice it.

Edited by Iberian on Dec 28, 2007 at 11:03 AM GMT (Reason: Update *)



Dec 28, 2007 at 01:57 PM
Jeff
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p.19 #9 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


bcaslis wrote:
That same day got a call from the local pro dealer that they have a D3 in. Been trying that for the past day. Too early to really judge yet, since I only a few shots outside (with a new 24-70 f2.8 it apparently is weather sealed ). But so far none of schizophrenic behavior of the 1D3. If I do switch, I'm really going to be sobbing over the loss of the 35L. But I just can't believe that the 1D3 still seems to have focus issues and that Canon wasted 3 1/2 weeks of my time for nothing.
...Show more

So Brian, what's the verdict on the D3? Is it as fantastic as everyone is raving about?

I have to admit that the D3/D300 combo are my perfect duo in cameras, but I hate to think the money I'd lose in recreating the 24-70 and 70-200 in the Nikon versions. However, if that's what it will take, so be it. I can't live with inaccurate AF (or random softness, whatever is to be the final verdict), and if I have to sell this thing for a loss to get accurate focusing back, Canon has lost me out of principle, if nothing else.



Dec 28, 2007 at 02:01 PM
Jeff
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p.19 #10 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Iberian wrote:
I know that only another photographer will notice but there is an area in the middle of the frame that is blurred. This is odd and occurs accross the whole frame yet above and below the shot is in focus. This is at f9 or something close to that IIRC not even close to a shallow DoF considering the distances involved.


Any chance you could post this image with some 100% crops from the areas in question? I'd be very interested in seeing if your results mirror some of what I've seen with these 'odd' focal plane/softness results from my MkIII.



Dec 28, 2007 at 02:05 PM
Iberian
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p.19 #11 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


I am not sure I could jump ship yet. I think I would go back to a Mk IIn first. Canon's CPS, lens lineup, and more consistent track record over time is enough to allow me to forgive this mistake. I just don't have the confidence in Nikon to release quality bodies year after year and I can't afford to jump back and forth, or own both systems.

If I was just starting though going Canon or Nikon would be a tough choice and if I was Nikon obviously I wouldn't be jumping to Canon unless I needed the Ds or Canon magically fixed the Mk III.



Dec 28, 2007 at 02:08 PM
jmcfadden
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p.19 #12 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Jeff

the "switch" really is not expensive for many. The loss on the MKIII will be the toughest pill to swallow. The lenses you have if you bought them new have gone a bit in value but if you are like me and buy used then it is no issue. You can find stellar deals on nikkors everyday here at FM, and canon glass is easy to sell here too.

All i can say is that I am able to pull back blown highlights over 2 stops, able to shoot at basically all ISO's and not even think about it till i am over ISO2500 and 3200 looks incredible and even higher with careful processing. The camera is amazing when it comes to the mechanics , the fps , shutterlag, and other stuff is blindingly fast and the AF sheesh , it is like cheating ........


J



Dec 28, 2007 at 02:10 PM
Jeff
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p.19 #13 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


jmcfadden wrote:
All i can say is that I am able to pull back blown highlights over 2 stops, able to shoot at basically all ISO's and not even think about it till i am over ISO2500 and 3200 looks incredible and even higher with careful processing. The camera is amazing when it comes to the mechanics , the fps , shutterlag, and other stuff is blindingly fast and the AF sheesh , it is like cheating ........


Hey John, my MkIII can do all that, as well. At least until you threw in that last part about the AF...

Unfortunately all my stuff was bought new, and I doubt that will change in the future.

Hope you had a Happy Holidays!

Jeff



Dec 28, 2007 at 02:17 PM
bcaslis
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p.19 #14 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Jeff wrote:
So Brian, what's the verdict on the D3? Is it as fantastic as everyone is raving about?

I have to admit that the D3/D300 combo are my perfect duo in cameras, but I hate to think the money I'd lose in recreating the 24-70 and 70-200 in the Nikon versions. However, if that's what it will take, so be it. I can't live with inaccurate AF (or random softness, whatever is to be the final verdict), and if I have to sell this thing for a loss to get accurate focusing back, Canon has lost me out of principle, if
...Show more

Don't have verdict yet since I really haven't been able to do any continuous AF testing (rained so much even the dog doesn't want to go out and run). I will offer a few observations:

1.) Mechanical build quality on the D3 and the 24-70 lens are much better than the Canon equivalents. They just feel much more solid and precise.
2.) No special tests, but the 24-70 lens seems sharper edge to edge than the Canon and has really high optics quality. Looks at least as good as the 50 1.4 Nikon. Much less vignetting than I expected based on previous experience with the 5D. People are reporting some vignetting on the 70-200 but I don't have one (at the moment).
3.) One shot focus is really precise, I haven't had a shot yet where it wasn't focused where it said it was or was OOF.
4.) In really low light I think the 1D3 has a focusing advantage. It seems to lock faster and can lock on a larger area since the D3 has all the points in a smaller relative area (full frame) and the cross type AF points are in the central area rather than spread out like the 1D3.
5.) Viewfinder is bigger and maybe a tiny bit dimmer than the 1D3. But I find manual focus much much easier even in very low light. Manual focus on the D3 is spot on every time. On the 1D3 it's often a guess. I don't know if this is just due to size or if the focusing screen on the D3 shows focus better. I think it's both.
6.) The LCD screen is WOW on the D3. You really have to see it. I can set a custom function so I push the controller center button and it zooms full in. I can tell absolutely if a shot is in focus. I can't really tell for sure on the 1D3 until I load it on the computer.
7.) Image quality is great, but I can see someone preferring the 1D3. If you shoot RAW (which I have been doing), I think images are slightly softer and slightly less contrast than the 1D3. However, they will allow lots of sharpening before showing problems and the details are there in the file, it just needs sharpening. In the end I think you can get comparable quality from both, with a tiny edge to the D3 since it has more pixels. But you will likely need more PP on the D3 to get to the same point from a RAW.
8.) D3 is better at high ISO. Not huge but about 1/2 a stop. The advantage doesn't really show up until 1600 ISO but it's there.

So in summary, the Nikon 24-70 is easily better than the Canon, the D3 is great at some things but I haven't been able to test the continuous focus yet. If your primary concern is low light AF, I think the 1D3 is probably the better choice. If that's not your primary concern the D3 likely will be IF the continuous AF is as good as it's supposed to be. From the comments I've read only seem like most people say the dynamic 21 point AF is the way to go.




Dec 28, 2007 at 03:08 PM
Jeff
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p.19 #15 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


Very interesting stuff, Brian, thanks for taking the time to post it. As always, no decision is clear-cut, and the pros and cons of each option often offset each other, resulting in inaction to make a change. I have no idea what I'm going to do, but I'll wait another 6 months in the hopes that Canon will rectify the lingering issues with the MkIII, which admittedly won't bother me too much until spring soccer season is upon us.

Thanks again,

Jeff



Dec 28, 2007 at 11:52 PM
Wickedfn4u
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p.19 #16 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


My only problem is State Cup is starting next week and I have no back up plan. Guess I will shoot and pray...lol


Dec 29, 2007 at 12:49 AM
Jeff
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p.19 #17 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


mill4570 wrote:
Jeff,

I can't imagine Canon recalling the MKIII and not repairing all known or suspect hardware problems. Firmware issues....maybe, but more hardware problems? I'm pretty skeptical no matter who/where the source. No disrespect to anyone, but the MKIII is still the Canon PJ/SS flagship, and this AF issue has hurt the companies' reputation and sales. To do it over again in a month or two would cause a run on swords in Japan. I truly hope you and your source are off base on this one.

OP,

Sorry your thread lost it's rudder.

Richard K.


Richard, I hope the source is off-base, as well, but...

I think that what we (as consumers of this pro-level 'flagship' camera) can fathom in regard to the issues Canon is facing right now is pure speculation. Few of us ever could have imagined 9 months ago that we'd be in this situation of replacing of piece of the camera's guts, but nevertheless here we are. We can attempt to reassure ourselves that it was merely a production issue with a bad part, but reality (as discussed ad nauseum) would strongly suggest otherwise. The magnitude of the submirror problem was a design issue that Canon was apparently unaware of for whatever reason, and given the absolute fact that it doesn't always manifest itself in all types of shooting, one might see how it was 'overlooked', if that's the proper word.

Consider for a moment the amount of time it took Canon to:

1) acknowledge the existence of and then assume responsibility for the problem,

2) discover the source of said problem,

3) consider the options and then decide on a 'fix',

4) start manufacturing parts required, so that

5) a mere 3+ weeks after they even acknowledged the existence of the problem they've already dedicated a repair facility, supposedly fabricated repair 'tools', trained people to do the repairs and started receiving cameras.

This would certainly suggest that Canon's R&D engineers were taken by surprise, and had no idea the extent of the 'known' issues at the time of release, and likely assumed it was a relatively minor firmware issue. It is clear to me, based upon ample evidence on the web (both RG's and mine included) that only once the submirror was fixed could other potential problems be discretely revealed as being separate. I would guess that the remaining problem(s) are less obvious, less frequent, possibly more difficult to evaluate, and potentially harder to fix from a design standpoint. I would further 'guess' (term used lightly ) that the engineers are currently working to solve the next set of performance issues with the camera. Whether it will entail a hardware or software solution remains to be seen at this point, but something in the development of this camera went wrong on a level that Canon has not experienced with any digital nor film camera to date. I have my own ideas on what could potentially be involved with these remaining issues, but it's admittedly nothing more than pure speculation grounded in my experience with the camera coupled with my (re-)reading of the White Paper.

Hopefully whatever is left is easily fixed, but I personally won't be convinced until it is done.

Anyway, I, too, humbly apologize to the OP for taking this thread so far off topic, but it is an interesting aspect of the question of whether or not we expect too much from our cameras and the people that design and build them for us.

Regards,

Jeff



Dec 29, 2007 at 12:53 AM
Jeff
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p.19 #18 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


rbranan wrote:
jeff

it appears you are stating that canon does have additional design flaws and that they are "potentially harder to fix from a design standpoint". if you know something--like we ought not buy these cameras, then what is it? should i be telling all my cohorts to run from this camera? i have canon masters of the light friends and they haven't told me about these additional issues. what are they? like i said above, my belief is that until these sub-mirror fixed cameras are in the field and have significant testing by users, we won't know the real outcome of
...Show more


I'm not certain that even Canon yet knows what will be done next, and I certainly have no specific knowledge of additional specific hardware defects. I'd agree with you that getting a large number of repaired cameras in the field is critical, the results of which could directly affect any further overt action on Canon's part. If I were you I'd take a good, long, detailed, and critical look at RG's last set of images, as they illustrate what some of the remaining issues are. The cause(s) of them remains to be revealed, but many of us have our suspicions, which admittedly are based upon both assumptions and experience with the camera. One shouldn't have to go looking for magic combinations of custom functions in order to successfully shoot in slightly varying conditions or subjects. My camera out of the box should be able to nail more than 55% of AI Servo shots, but it still can't, even after the 'fix'.

As far as whether or not to buy a MkIII, only you can decide based upon this and other threads and opinions all over both FM and the internet. I have praised this camera's strengths since Day One, and I continue to, despite my recent displeasure at the initial 'fix' not fixing much on my camera. Everything everyone says about this camera's strengths is true: image quality, 14-bit, battery performance, menu/interface operation, high ISO perfomance, handling and weight; they're all exemplary. But, and this is a big 'but', regardless of my opinion on the matter, there is clearly enough anecdotal evidence around the web to make the decision difficult. And since you asked about what the remaining issues are, there is evidence around the web that certain 'ghosting' issues can occur (especially with poorly focused or soft images), and that there are general 'softness' issues that may or may not be due to focus (for example, I've had some focal plane issues that I haven't yet isolated to lens or camera). Many people have reported not being able to find anything in a given image in focus, when somewhere in the image there should be. Much of it is very inconsistent, some of which can be qualitatively difficult to assign fault to either user or camera. It is not clear-cut, and the manifestation of some of these issues can be subtle.

If you don't rely on AI Servo for your livelihood, I'd say go for it; it is a fantastic all-around camera. If you are in a position of possibly having to sell it anytime soon without getting lots of use out of it, it may not be so wise. I don't yet regret selling my 1Ds to get a 1D MkIII, but 3 months ago I also felt 100% certain that Canon would make this absolutely right with everyone. I'm not so sure of that now, and I don't like the feeling that an "n" or Mark V version may be the ultimate answer.

Good luck in your decision, and perhaps waiting just a bit until more 'repaired' bodies are out there will help to solidify your decision.

Respectfully,

Jeff





Dec 29, 2007 at 12:54 AM
bcaslis
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p.19 #19 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


I did about 20 shots today in the gray rain with continuous AF using the dynamic focus with 21 points (you pick a point and it uses a 21 point circle to keep everything on the original spot). It seemed to work really well on tracking our dog. My usual problem with the 1D3 is that if I try to focus on the eye it always ends up focusing on her white area behind the nose but before the eyes (brown eyes and brown fur around the eye), or it jumps to a large white patch behind her head. The D3 seemed to stay focused on the eye at 70mm (longest I have right now) and f2.8. This doesn't prove the D3 is better than the 1D3 but it did do the job.

I will say that the Nikon 24-70 is impressive. It's clearly better than the Canon 24-70 in every respect. There is no way the Canon lens is as sharp at f2.8 as the Nikon.




Dec 29, 2007 at 01:02 AM
Photon
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p.19 #20 · ['NEW Fix' UPDATE!] - MkIII AF still broken


bcaslis wrote:
...

1.) Mechanical build quality on the D3 and the 24-70 lens are much better than the Canon equivalents. They just feel much more solid and precise.
2.) No special tests, but the 24-70 lens seems sharper edge to edge than the Canon and has really high optics quality. Looks at least as good as the 50 1.4 Nikon. Much less vignetting than I expected based on previous experience with the 5D. People are reporting some vignetting on the 70-200 but I don't have one (at the moment).
...
So in summary, the Nikon 24-70 is easily better than the Canon, the D3 is
...Show more
Thanks for all the comparative info. Gotta say, if the Nikon 24-70 is much better than my Canon 24-70, it must be spectacular! I'm satisfied with my Ls, though I'm jealous of the Nikon 14-24. It's all a balancing act, but on either side of the teeter-totter, what great tools we have these days! In spite of some AF issues. If you want to see focusing issues, you should see some of my MF misses from the days before AF.



Dec 29, 2007 at 01:10 AM
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