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Archive 2007 · My Oly - I'm In Love

  
 
Jorgen Udvang
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p.3 #1 · My Oly - I'm In Love


nikt wrote:
The E3 is a fantastic camera. And there are some very good lenses that you can get with it. Unfortunately, the super fasts like the 1.2's or 1.4's , aren't there.


Of course I agree, and this is one of the reasons why I keep my Nikon gear. But the better Olympus gets, the less use the Nikkors will see, particularly the zooms. So much so that I wonder if an M8 with a couple of fast primes would be a better second system.



Dec 04, 2007 at 06:13 AM
Airborne_
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p.3 #2 · My Oly - I'm In Love


nikt wrote:
Does anyone know how much a Canon 180-500mm f2.8 IS lens costs, or the size? I'm thinking about picking one up.



Dec 04, 2007 at 03:31 PM
CKrueger
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p.3 #3 · My Oly - I'm In Love


jamesf99 wrote:
There's no doubt that the pictures look great so thanks for posting.

I'm curious though, are you considering this your main camera now or as a P&S? I can see using this as a P&S or maybe a backup camera that produces great quality, but the 4/3 system is doomed IMO. The sensor size is too small to go anywhere, and I think the direction, as many of us have known for a long time is "back to" FF. The first APS-C P&S is going to be released soon (providing much more real estate than the tiny Oly 4/3 chip) and
...Show more

The E-3 isn't much smaller than the 5D, so it's not like it's something to be carried when you don't want to haul the heavy gear.

How can you say the "sensor is too small to go anywhere"? You said yourself the pictures look great. That's still the whole point of a camera, isn't it? Or are 100% crops the new product we're after?

Back only a few years ago, you could have similarly have said that APS-C is a dead end, because the 10D was just as noisy as the 1Ds, and had much lower resolution. The 10D was obviously state-of-the-art in terms of image quality (noise, DR, etc). Given this was the best Canon could do, APS-C obviously wouldn't go anywhere; we'd all be using FF sensors in a few years because they're so much better, and there would be a heap of APS-C lenses on eBay for $20. Only that didn't happen.

Four Thirds isn't much smaller than APS-C. APS-C is much smaller than FF. Here's an exercise that might be illuminating for anyone who thinks FT is much smaller than APS-C: get a ruler and draw a line 35.8mm long, a line 22.2mm long, and a line 17.3mm long. The first line is the width of a 5D sensor. The second line is the 40D. The third line is the E-410/E-510/E-3. The scale of the difference is rather surprising, isn't it? If one were to call Four Thirds "tiny", you'd certainly have to call APS-C tiny as well.

Also note that Four Thirds sensors are actually larger than the 40D's sensor vertically. The 4:3 ratio is better than 3:2 for printing 8x10's, worse for printing 4x6's.

Larger sensors are better. That's a given. You either get more pixels (print bigger) or lower noise. But consider that the E-3 can print a 243ppi 10x15", or a 122ppi 20x30". Compare that to a 259ppi 10x15" or 108ppi 20x30" from a 40D. Effectively the same. The 40D's advantage is, of course, lower noise. But if the E-3 has enough resolution and low enough noise for your uses (and don't forget you get IS with every lens), what's the big deal?

If the advocates of various cameras systems spent half the time printing images as they did staring at 100% crops, camera forums would be a much quieter place.

Personally, I'm happy to shoot both. I've got a full Canon system with a 5D and 350D, an E-410 with a couple tiny zooms, and a few OM primes that I can mount on either. I bring the 5D when I need its resolution, noise performance or low-light AF tracking (not often) and bring the E-410 when I don't. In a few years when I imagine even the lowest-end bodies are capable of making decent ISO12800 prints I doubt I'll need a "big" body at all. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if someday I throw all my DSLR gear away for a P&S that beats my 5D in every area.



Dec 04, 2007 at 03:40 PM
cogitech
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p.3 #4 · My Oly - I'm In Love


Thanks Chris. You just pushed me one notch closer to pulling the trigger on an E-410. I just hope I don't regret having to sell my 20D. Thoughts?


Dec 04, 2007 at 04:00 PM
CKrueger
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p.3 #5 · My Oly - I'm In Love


nikt wrote:
Does anyone know how much a Canon 180-500mm f2.8 IS lens costs, or the size? I'm thinking about picking one up.


Sigma has your 180-500/2.8 (120-300) for your APS-C body, It doesn't have IS, but for the difference in cost you could hire someone to carry a tripod for you.



Dec 04, 2007 at 04:49 PM
CKrueger
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p.3 #6 · My Oly - I'm In Love


cogitech wrote:
Thanks Chris. You just pushed me one notch closer to pulling the trigger on an E-410. I just hope I don't regret having to sell my 20D. Thoughts?


Sorry Paul, I've been meaning to post a mini-review of my new E-410 since I got it a few weeks ago, especially since I know you're considering the exact same setup. I was waiting until I got my Katz Eye split-prism focus screen, as the viewfinder is small enough to make focusing difficult with my slower primes, and I didn't have enough eye relief to be comfortable using the eyepiece magnifier. I just got the focus screen last night, and haven't had any sunlight to shoot yet. (No, really! It's 4:00PM and I just metered to EV6 in hazy, snowy Wisconsin!)

The camera itself has a bunch of big positives, and some big negatives as well. Briefly:

+ It's tiny! Holy crap it's small! The other day I fit the E-410, 14-42, 40-150, and OM50/1.8 in this: http://www.thinktankphoto.com/ttp_product_ChmpCg.php
+ It's light enough to wear on the neck, at least with small lenses. Much like a Canon S2IS or G9.
+ The kit lenses are absolutely awesome. Seriously. Buy them both in the kit if you have any need for the focal lengths they cover.
+ Live view is useful. The magnified view makes tripod shooting an absolute dream.
+ It takes almost any lens you can think of. PK is fine, and FD even fits if you do some lens surgery.
+ It has a spot meter. I guess this impresses me cause Canon's compact bodies are so stripped down.
+ I had a piece of dust on it when I bought it, but after cleaning with a bulb I have had no more dust. Time will tell....
+ Did I mention it's TINY?
- Dynamic range isn't as good as my 5D. Still usable, but I have to be more careful not to clip highlights.
- The viewfinder is small and not very bright. I'd put it slightly behind the 350D again. The magnifier helps this but gives tunnel vision. The Katz Eye screen makes it noticeably brighter, but it's still not the panacea the 5D is. Especially since the focus screen kills the spot meter for slow lenses.
- No "old-style" LCD panel means the rear display is on when you want shooting info. And it's really bright in your "viewfinder eye" when you press the camera to your face.
- ISO noise is mediocre. I'd say it's a bit worse than my 350D (or your 20D). I try to avoid ISO1600 if possible.
- No wide/fast primes. This is killing me! I want a 14/2, 17/2, and 25/1.8 in the traditional compact OM style. The closest thing is a Leica 25/1.4, and that's big enough to send me running to my 350D+35/2.

The jury is still out for me on whether I will use the camera as a walkaround with my 21/3.5 and 28/3.5, purely because of the viewfinder. I think the focus screen will make it usable, but I haven't had a chance to verify that. But even if not, I found serendipity in these wonderful little kit lenses.

I imagine you'd miss your 20D as a useful backup to your 5D. The E-410 is a different beast entirely. The results just aren't quite as good as with my 5D (which might be partly my inexperience with the system). But I bought it to be a go-anywhere DSLR, and sure enough it's here at work with me today, while my 5D sits at home in my closet with its 100-400.



Dec 04, 2007 at 05:53 PM
cogitech
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p.3 #7 · My Oly - I'm In Love


Wow. I pulled the trigger as you were typing that, I am sure.

I found one on the bay "brand new in box" with the kit lens, for $469. I couldn't help myself.

We'll see



Dec 04, 2007 at 06:09 PM
CKrueger
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p.3 #8 · My Oly - I'm In Love


With the Canadian dollar as it is, you should have swiped one from B&H with the kit lenses. Probably would have cost you $18 CAD.

Have fun! Don't forget to grab an OM adapter, too. Four Thirds is even more adaptable than EF. Someone even managed to hack up an FD lens and and mount it to his FT body. If I had the skills to do that I'd have a Canon FD 300/2.8 on order right now.



Dec 04, 2007 at 11:30 PM
cogitech
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p.3 #9 · My Oly - I'm In Love


CKrueger wrote:
With the Canadian dollar as it is, you should have swiped one from B&H with the kit lenses. Probably would have cost you $18 CAD.

Have fun! Don't forget to grab an OM adapter, too. Four Thirds is even more adaptable than EF. Someone even managed to hack up an FD lens and and mount it to his FT body. If I had the skills to do that I'd have a Canon FD 300/2.8 on order right now.


The dollar just took a pretty big tumble, so I'm glad I jumped on it and made payment before it got too bad.

Yes, one of the major attractions for me is the ability to use nearly all my lenses on both systems. The 2x crop makes this even more interesting to me! I've decided to give the E-410 one month to impress me before I let the 20D go. Or, maybe I'll liquidate a few lenses and/or accessories instead.

Cheers!




Dec 05, 2007 at 08:52 AM
cogitech
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p.3 #10 · My Oly - I'm In Love


TP


Dec 05, 2007 at 08:52 AM
CKrueger
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p.3 #11 · My Oly - I'm In Love


The 2x is really nice on the portrait/tele end... my 50/1.8 is a great little portrait lens, and my 135/3.5 shows the promise of a really useful tele, although my particular copy has some CA problems wide open that really hurt its sharpness until f/5.6.

Even at its sharpest my 135/3.5 is softer than my 40-150, however, so I need to find a sharper tele prime. I'm considering looking for some good fast 135/200/300 primes, but not quite sure what I want yet... I'll likely end up with a PK adapter at the very least, so I can use my dad's old PK SMC 50/1.4... at least after I manage to somewhat reduce its yellowing. So maybe I'll have to compare 200mm primes from Olympus and Pentax.

Another interesting mount you can sorta use on FT is Konica. The bayonet actually matches right up! Unfortunately it's loose as it has no locking pin, but some have added spacers to help with that. I simply removed the aperture lever from an old Hexanon 40/1.8 and mounted it right up to my E-410. It's loose, but adding a spacer won't be a difficult matter. (Here's a link to one person's procedure: http://www.fourthirdsphoto.com/blog/?p=17)



Dec 05, 2007 at 11:15 AM
cogitech
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p.3 #12 · My Oly - I'm In Love


Lots of possibilities, for sure. I plan to get an M42 adapter and an OM adapter to start with, which covers nearly all my alternative lenses. The prospect of a 100mm/1.4 (either my Super-Tak or Zuiko) for street/candid available light shooting is exciting for me. I also can't wait to try my wide Zuikos. Hopefully live-view and/or the distance scale will help overcome the limitations of the viewfinder.

All I need to do is find a "My other camera is a 5D" camera strap



Dec 05, 2007 at 11:32 AM
pascal03
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p.3 #13 · My Oly - I'm In Love


CKrueger wrote:
..........
+ It's tiny! Holy crap it's small! The other day I fit the E-410, 14-42, 40-150, and OM50/1.8 in this: http://www.thinktankphoto.com/ttp_product_ChmpCg.php
+ It's light enough to wear on the neck, at least with small lenses. Much like a Canon S2IS or G9.............



Here are a couple of images comparing the size of the e410+14-50mm f2.8-3.5 to the Canon 5D with Zeiss N 24-85mm f3.5-4.5.
The last one is the wide angle option for both systems - 5D+ Zeiss N 17-35m f2.8 and e410+7-14mm f4.0. No matter how you size it up, the Olympus e410 is about as small and lightweight as it gets... as of today

Now if Olympus would only introduce a 20mm, 25mm, or 30mm pancake lens for use on the e410, no one would bother with a point & shoot camera

http://i.pbase.com/o3/26/807326/1/87726999.tY8jz3aL.DSC09518.jpg

http://i.pbase.com/o3/26/807326/1/87727001.9eGrXDEG.DSC09511.jpg

http://i.pbase.com/o3/26/807326/1/87727004.fPv5kLmL.DSC09458.jpg



Dec 05, 2007 at 12:46 PM
CKrueger
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p.3 #14 · My Oly - I'm In Love


You should see the 14-42 on the E-410... much smaller than the Canon 18-55, even, which makes the overall package look dwarfed by even my little 350D!

The distance scales aren't guaranteed-accurate when using OM lenses on a FT body, unfortunately. But the good news is that Live View is extremely useful, and not just when shooting on a tripod.

For example, when I got my OM adapter I headed straight off to the local zoo to test my 50/1.8 and 135/3.5 versus my 14-42 and 40-150. Inside the reptile house the light is pretty pathetic. Dancing on the edge of handholdable speeds for sure. I took a few shots with my 50/1.8 using the viewfinder, but wasn't quite sure I had the focus. I turned on Live View, framed the image, used the joystick controller to move a box over a snake's eye, and pressed "OK". The view magnified to a 7x view (optionally a 10x view) of his head. With a nice big 2.5" LCD to peer at, focusing the 50/1.8 manually was much easier than with my 5D. (Shutter lag is P&S like in Live View, but that's not a big deal for any circumstance where I'm likely to use it.)

When I got back home, the viewfinder pics were hit or miss thanks to the need to shoot wide open in such poor lighting. The Live View shots were absolutely perfect. I didn't even have any framing problems even though I was only looking at a portion of the frame, because all I needed to do was keep the eyeball in the center of the cropped frame.

I was skeptical about Live View, but when I can use it, it's extremely useful. And thankfully it's not too tough on the battery.



Dec 05, 2007 at 01:55 PM
Jorgen Udvang
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p.3 #15 · My Oly - I'm In Love


The Zuiko 100/2.8 can be warmly recommended. As small and light as most 50mm primes, but with the reach of a 200mm on 4/3. Not 100% sharp wide open, but acceptable. At 5.6 and 8, it really shines


Dec 05, 2007 at 08:04 PM
traveler
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p.3 #16 · My Oly - I'm In Love


It's been quite some time since I've attended this forum. For over 10 years I did exclusively Canon, than moving over to Nikon with a D200 (adding a D40x later). I added a bunch of lenses. Then I made the fatal mistake of doing a 2 day shootout in the dealers location when he got a hold of the E-510 kits last August. I was sold. I upgraded to a 14-54 lens (outstanding) and added a 50-200, 50mm f2.0 Macro (kept the 40-150 kit lens for lightweight situations only) and added a Sigma 105 f2.8 EX Macro for that purpose. I also got a FL-50 flash. All in all I've been VERY pleased. I feel that those Zuiko lenses are simply superior optically. I sold off all of my Nikon gear and am exclusively Oly for now. Indeed they did a fine job with their newer line.


Dec 05, 2007 at 10:52 PM
jamesf99
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p.3 #17 · My Oly - I'm In Love


Clovermead wrote:
Interesting points, but the conclusions you reach from them do not necessarily follow.


Can I predict the future? No. But Nikon said all their users were satisfied with DX. Anyone with brain activity knew that wasn't true.



Dec 06, 2007 at 10:28 AM
jamesf99
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p.3 #18 · My Oly - I'm In Love




How can I say that? Extremely easily actually. There's no doubt that the camera can produce high quality small images, but like DX, or even Canon's APS-C, they are running out of space. The new Nikon D300 is no better than the D200 before it (Nikon's and Sony's problems) regarding noise from the preliminary samples I've used.

I'm not dissuaded and I still think it's a dead end. APS-C sensors were developed due to a technological limitation. That limit is slowly being eroded by FF sensors and will continue.

Actually, last I compared it was "much" smaller (15-20%). That's significant IMO.

I do
...Show more
Personally, I'm happy to shoot both. I've got a full Canon system with a 5D and 350D, an E-410 with a couple tiny zooms, and a few OM primes that I can mount on either. I bring the 5D when I need its resolution, noise performance or low-light AF tracking (not often) and bring the E-410 when I don't. In a few years when I imagine even the lowest-end bodies are capable of making decent ISO12800 prints I doubt I'll need a "big" body at all. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if someday I throw all my DSLR gear away for a P&S that beats my 5D in every area.


Now that would be great. If I could get a small camera that produced really good images that held up to larger print sizes, even with secondary interpolation, against my current gear I'd be happy. My point, and the reason I asked the question in the first place is that, again IMO, the 4:3 system will be a dead end. Investing in something - with possibly - no future is a gamble, however, I own recently purchased gear that saw it's day 20 years ago and will never be revived, as good as it was back then.

Nikon people will flock to FF again as finances allow. Sony people will do the same. Pentax, Oly, et. al. all made their names on "FF". Sigma will produce a P&S that uses APS-C, leaving 1/1.8 behind, and new comers such as Panasonic, Samsung, etc will have to decide where they want to be, but I don't think it's in the pro market.



Dec 06, 2007 at 11:02 AM
jamesf99
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p.3 #19 · My Oly - I'm In Love


Jorgen Udvang wrote:
Your first sentence makes sense, but on that background, none of the rest do. If the pictures look good, does anything else matter?


Well, we obviously disagree and yes, other things do matter; a lot if you're thinking of buying a "system". If it's a P&S, you still need to think of things like duplicating lenses, different batteries (certainly not a unique problem as mfgs change these all the time), and the chance that the system can't keep up with sensor changes (I don't buy APS-C lenses). Do I know that it can't or won't keep up for sure? No, of course not, but you don't have to look far to see what's happening, and even those fanatical Nikon people are reassessing their commitment to DX (I keep using Nikon as an example because I've found the users to be the most loyal (read: most susceptible to marketing or "gullible"). No one even remotely on the ball could (or should have) believe Nikon at their word, or I hope not.....

I never believed them. Not for a minute.....



Dec 06, 2007 at 11:20 AM
CKrueger
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p.3 #20 · My Oly - I'm In Love


jamesf99 wrote:
How can I say that? Extremely easily actually. There's no doubt that the camera can produce high quality small images, but like DX, or even Canon's APS-C, they are running out of space. The new Nikon D300 is no better than the D200 before it (Nikon's and Sony's problems) regarding noise from the preliminary samples I've used.


Noise barely went down from the D60 to 10D, or 20D to 30D, or really even the 30D to 40D. It's a slow, gradual reduction as technology improves. There's no dead-end here on noise. CERTAINLY not for Four Thirds. Compare the E-300, E-510, and E-3! Huge difference!

Similarly I don't think we're anywhere close to a pixel pitch limit. Pixel pitches have come down steadily since the first DSLRs (indeed the first digital sensors) and noise has generally gone down as well. People prognosticate about some kind of pixel pitch limit, but every successive generation of DSLRs have proven them wrong. At what point will the nay-sayers realize that technology advances, and tomorrow's cameras are not constrained by today's technology?


jamesf99 wrote:
I'm not dissuaded and I still think it's a dead end. APS-C sensors were developed due to a technological limitation. That limit is slowly being eroded by FF sensors and will continue.


I see it differently. I see some highly specialized cameras in the FF market, with the vast bulk of DSLRs being made up by smaller sensors of some sort (1.3x, 1.5x, 1.6x, 2x).

When someone markets a FF DSLR for $1500, THEN we can talk about FF going mainstream.


jamesf99 wrote:
Nikon people will flock to FF again as finances allow. Sony people will do the same. Pentax, Oly, et. al. all made their names on "FF". Sigma will produce a P&S that uses APS-C, leaving 1/1.8 behind, and new comers such as Panasonic, Samsung, etc will have to decide where they want to be, but I don't think it's in the pro market.


Perhaps the future is FF. But given that FF sensors are dramatically more expensive to produce in high yields than APS-C sensors, I consider it more likely that we will instead see prices fall and features rise on APS-C sensors. I expect we'll see the return of the $200 Rebel body (crippled like the 300D of course) as a driver for lens sales, with $800 buying something like the 40D. Even if you can at that point get a 5D-like body for $1200, this "5D Mk XIV" will still be a specialist's tool--it will sit on the top of the market, like it does today.



Dec 06, 2007 at 03:36 PM
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