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Archive 2007 · Mamiya 50mm f4 shift with Zork PSA

Drew_Persson
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Mamiya 50mm f4 shift with Zork PSA

I'm considering a Mamiya 50mm f/4 shift lens with an adapter on my 5D (upgrading to 1DS2 in the next few months) so I can stich images. I've read that the 50mm MF lens on a 35mm body is basically equivalent to the FOV you'd get with a ~30mm small-format lens. (I don't really understand why, you'd think adding the adapter would make the focal length longer if anything.)

As far as the adapter goes, I'm considering the Zoerk PSA, which would allow me to do something similar to this setup with a Hartblei (Aug '06 post):
http://kevyong.blogspot.com/2006_08_01_archive.html

I've also read the Pentax 35mm FA is one of the best MF lenses, which could be also used with the Zoerk PSA but would only allow shift in one plane. Is this lens superior to the 50mm Mamiya shift?

Anybody mess around with these?

Edited by Drew_Persson on Sep 21, 2007 at 11:34 AM GMT

Sep 20, 2007 at 08:40 PM

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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Mamiya 50mm f4 shift with Zork PSA

IMHO you are wrong,
50 mm on 24x36 sensor(film) is 50 mm - it's a "standart" lens, with the same FOV as all 50mm lenses
but 50 mm on MF is wideangle lens

Sep 20, 2007 at 11:22 PM

hubsand
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Mamiya 50mm f4 shift with Zork PSA

Oh yes: the Mamiya 50 shift is one of the great MF optics, up there with the FA35 and the best Hasselblads. It's only flaw is a greater-then-average propensity to flare and internal reflection: make sure you get a hood.

Though the focal length is the focal length is the focal length, a medium format 50mm throws a 70mm image circle with a 58.5° horizontal field of view. That's roughly equivalent to a 31mm in 35mm terms. If you 'mapped' that image circle fully with your camera via the shift adaptor, you will end up with an image that looks like you used a 31mm prime on a much higher resolution sensor: typically double that of your camera.

And because you're effectively using a '31mm shift lens', you can add the Mamiya's native 16mm movements to that of the PSA and obtain movements up to 38mm (mirror box shadow permitting – which it won't) with corresponding increases in file sizes and hFOV coverage. I may have a used PSA (Pentax mount) and FA35mm coming in this week if you're interested in buying one . . .

Sep 21, 2007 at 03:09 AM

jcolwell
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Mamiya 50mm f4 shift with Zork PSA

Maxim's got it right. The Mamiya 645 50mm focal length lens will only give you the "31mm equivalent" wide angle view on a 5D if the 5D sensor is the same size as the M645 image, which it's unfortunately not, or as Hubsand says, if the entire M645 image is mapped to the 5D sensor, which would require optics in the adapter to compress the image. The existing adapters from Zork, Mirex and Hartblei don't contain optics (and IQ would suffer if they did). The difference between the relatively large image circle diameter from teh M645 lens and the relatively small 5D sensor size, means that there is a bunch of "spare" image circle around the 5D sensor. This allows you to shift the lens with respect to the body, and the 5D sensor is still well within the 645 lens image circle, and so no vignetting, until as Hubsand says, you hit the mirror box.

Here's two shots I just took with my 5D. The first is with a Mamiya M645 C 35mm f/4 N lens...

Sep 21, 2007 at 05:08 AM

jcolwell
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Mamiya 50mm f4 shift with Zork PSA

...and this next one is with a Contax Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 35mm f/2.8 (for a Contax 35mm camera). Pardon the mess.

Sep 21, 2007 at 05:10 AM

shirozina
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Mamiya 50mm f4 shift with Zork PSA

IMO if you want to stitch you are better off using a standard '35mm' 50 mm lens and a good stitching application. It's only with lenses wider than 35mm that you see the advantages of a true shift lens. Interiors with foreground detail will benefit from a shift BUT only if the adapter shifts the body and not the lens otherwise you will get misalignment due to parralax error.

Sep 21, 2007 at 05:29 AM

Drew_Persson
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Mamiya 50mm f4 shift with Zork PSA

I've already got all the bracketry (a full VR head) to keep the lens stationary while shifitng the body, so paralax won't be an issue.

Thanks for explaining why the 50mm is still 50mm, that makes perfect sense. The 5D simply captures a small portion of the middle of the MF image circle (which is why a substantial amount of shift is possible), just as a 20D would when using a lens made for a full-frame sensor. Odd that there is so much written to the contrary online, guess plenty of guys are confused.

What's the most useable shift I could get using this setup? I was hoping I could use the Mamiya shifting vertically and the Zork PSA shifting horizontally to capture a grid sized two horizontal frames by two horizontal frames. But it looks like the outer corners of the grid would fall off the image circle...

Or maybe a panorama the size of three vertical frames wouldn't be so close to the edge.

Sep 21, 2007 at 12:35 PM

Drew_Persson
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Mamiya 50mm f4 shift with Zork PSA

hubsand wrote:
I may have a used PSA (Pentax mount) and FA35mm coming in this week if you're interested in buying one . . .

Hmmmm, will keep that in mind, thanks.

Sep 21, 2007 at 12:37 PM

Drew_Persson
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Mamiya 50mm f4 shift with Zork PSA

hubsand wrote:
a medium format 50mm throws a 70mm image circle with a 58.5° horizontal field of view.

Wouldn't all 645 lenses throw ~70mm image circle?

Sep 21, 2007 at 12:40 PM

jcolwell
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Mamiya 50mm f4 shift with Zork PSA

Most 645 lenses have an image circle of about 70mm, because that's the diagonal length of the 645 image frame. OTOH, the Mamiya 645 50mm f/4 Shift lens has an image circle diameter of 97mm, which is required to allow for shifting over the 645 image frame.

Sep 21, 2007 at 01:19 PM

Drew_Persson
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Mamiya 50mm f4 shift with Zork PSA

Excellent, so that would definitely allow me to capture a 2x2 grid (72x48) of horizontal images and still be ~5mm from the edge. (88mm corner to corner) The Mamiya 50mm is said to have +/- 16mm of shift, but only shifts one direction, so it must be rotated to go the other direction. http://www.jafaphotography.com/mamiya_50mf.htm

FWIW I've read it the Mamiya lens is sharper than the Hartblei tilt/shift, both at the center and at the edges, and more contrasty. (and has a shift scale, which the Hartblei does not)

Nice thing about the Zoerk adapter (20mm of shift) vs the inexpensive Russian ones on eBay (11mm of shift in one direction) is that the Zoerk can be ordered with a tripod mount, making it easy to shift the camera and leave the lens position untouched.

Very exciting!

Edited by Drew_Persson on Sep 22, 2007 at 02:19 PM GMT

Sep 21, 2007 at 02:11 PM

Drew_Persson
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Mamiya 50mm f4 shift with Zork PSA

What about the 75mm f/4.5 W Mamiya RZ67 (electronic) or RB67 (mechanical) shift lenses? Looks like there's also an "L" version, not sure what that is.

The Zoerk web site mentions a Pentax or Hasselblad 67 to 35mm body adapter, but not the Mamiya RZ67 to 35mm. After searching It appears that it may be impossible to focus a Mamiya 67 lens without it being attached to a Mamiya body, so that's probably out.

(If it seems like I'm trying to pack maximum info into this thread, I am - to save the next guy who researches this a lot of trouble.)

Sep 21, 2007 at 02:33 PM

hubsand
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Mamiya 50mm f4 shift with Zork PSA

Also, it's not that great. I'd stick with the 50/4. There's a whole lot of stitching fun to be had in that big image circle. I have some shots somewhere archived shot with the 5D + 27mm shift . . . I'll see if I can unearth them.

Sep 21, 2007 at 05:25 PM

Grant808
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Mamiya 50mm f4 shift with Zork PSA

I use a Hasselblad 50/4 on a Zork PSA and it's still 50mm on the 5D...but it has the benefit of being able to shift and stitch 3 frames for the equivalent of about 22mm or so. As pointed out by a previous post, one of my favorite features of the PSA is the tripod mount that makes shifting very quick and easy. It keeps the lens in the same place and turns the camera into a 3 shot scanning back...at least for my purposes.

Sep 21, 2007 at 06:10 PM

Drew_Persson
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Mamiya 50mm f4 shift with Zork PSA

Odd that no retailers in the US seem to carry the Mirex adapter:
http://mirex-adapter.de/index.htm

Fotodiox adapters:
http://www.fotodiox.com/shop/index.php?cPath=27

A word of caution about using some adapters on Canon EOS:
http://www.outbackphoto.com/the_bag/paul_adapter_note/essay.html

Stitching system options:
http://www.stitchpix.com/options.html

Here's a fantastic article about digital mosaics:
http://clarkvision.com/photoinfo/large_mosaics/index.html

About stitching with the Zork:
http://www.stitchpix.com/zoerk_psa_rrs1.html

According to Paul Caldwell:
"The P645 35mm FA will hold up to 20mm of shift and give you very little or no CA. The Mamiya 50mm Shift is an excellent lens also and will give you around 16mm of shift on a 35mm camera."

Edited by Drew_Persson on Sep 22, 2007 at 11:26 AM GMT

Edited by Drew_Persson on Sep 26, 2007 at 11:41 PM GMT

Sep 21, 2007 at 10:37 PM

Drew_Persson
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Mamiya 50mm f4 shift with Zork PSA

hubsand wrote:
you can add the Mamiya's native 16mm movements to that of the PSA and obtain movements up to 38mm (mirror box shadow permitting – which it won't)

Given the shadowing, how much useable movement might I expect with the Zork / 50mm Mamiya shift combo?

Also, many have stated that several of the Pentax 645 lenses are very good, as opposed to only the Mamiya 50mm shift being very good (though the 35 f3.5 & 55mm f2.8 have received some favorable mentions). Do you think it would be wiser to skip the Zork/Mamiya 50mm shift combo (even though it has a larger image circle and could create a substantially larger stitched image) and put that money toward a Zork/Pentax adapter, which allow a variety of focal lengths (perhaps SMCP-FA 35mm f/3.5 AL (IF), 55A, 75A & 120A macro) in the future?

A pair of Zork adapters would add up to a lot of $.

Sep 22, 2007 at 11:32 AM


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