The problem is this: Canon has the biggest installed user base. Nikon wants to take a bigger piece of the pie. Canon will be more reluctant to empty its gun clips, while Nikon is blazing away to catch up. It's all a very complex balancing act between R&D, tech specs and economics.
As end-user it isn't desirable to see a manufacturer hold back, so healthy competition is a good thing, but it is understandable.
The D3 looks awesome. Well done Nikon. I expect Nikon users are about to discover why full frame matters. Remember, it wasn't that long ago that Nikon was saying that DX was the future. What a U-turn.
However, don't forget that...
1) Canon has a 21 megapixel camera coming at about the same time
2) the awful F mount means you can't adapt lenses
3) Nikon doesn't yet have a lightweight full frame option
4) apart from the 900k LCD the spec lists for these cameras mostly seem to be about catching up to Canon rather than innovating
It's going to take a wide gap of superiority to get me to switch back to Nikon now that I have swapped out all my Nikon glass for Canon/Zeiss/Oly.
2 questions:
1) If 9fps 12MP full frame is possible at this price, what is the future of Canon's 1.3x crop?
2) Is Nikon making a loss per D3 in trying to get back into the game?
Edited by brainiac on Aug 23, 2007 at 09:21 AM GMT
At the end of the day the technology will always be moving forward and its actually good to see both Nikon and Canon bringing out new cameras. The other players have now mostly been reduced to Johnny-come-lately spectators on the sidelines who make pretty aim-and-pray pocket cameras for the Walmart masses. Generally any serious photographer has picked a camp for lenses and cannot jump around like a prosumer who buys a new camera and "kit" lens every 2 years. So its a question of seeing what becomes available in new tech for both Nikon and Canon users - the companies are watching and making changes to stay up to date with user demands and new chips.
Personally, I'm having to stay put on what I have for quite a while before I can think to get a new body - by which time this year's new models will be considered 'old' and the discussion will be around the new 31mpx 18-bit cameras
waking up with a hangover from the 1DsIII and 40D launch party and then having to face this announcement by Nikon!
I am sure that each company knows very well what the other is doing. Also the specs of the new Nikons had been in the rumors threads for quite a while.
Cheers to Nikon and some more real competition... The D80 and D200 has given us the 40D (ordered mine yesterday)
Maybe the D3 will help blow away the silly $3000+ price different for a bigger sensor in the 1ds III vs 1DIII (who wants to bet we see a price erosion down to a $1K difference over the next year or so!)
or Bring an even better 3D
or ensure that the 5D Mark II is amazing
And the new lenses - fantastic... Covers some great gaps in the Canon range...
Oh and lets hope the high ISO noise at 6400 is really low - because Canon have their low voltage next generaiton CMOS in their labs so make them rush it out in the next 2 years...
THANK YOU NIKON for competition over the last year...
It can only be better for us all
Edited by Geoff Costello on Aug 23, 2007 at 07:15 PM GMT
Edited by Geoff Costello on Aug 23, 2007 at 07:15 PM GMT
brainiac wrote:
4) apart from the 900k LCD the spec lists for these cameras mostly seem to be about catching up to Canon rather than innovating
Feature for feature you might be right, although they did improve on Canon's stuff here and there. AF in Live View for instance (not that it's something I would buy a SLR for anyway, but it's an improvement).
What is really good though, is what they throw in the package. In my book, the D300 is a way better deal, dollar for dollar, than the 40D. The D300 is definitely a more complete camera, more pro. Just imagine them throwing in the 51 point AF of their pro system. Wow!
Hope Canon has something up it's sleeve and real quick, 'cause I can't bear thinking about mingling with the Nikon crowd right now
I chuckle just a little when I see a post stating, “We as Canon users have asked for and Canon delivered.” Or they have not delivered, whatever. Apply simple economics to the equation and it becomes clear that, ‘white lens’ on the sidelines on Sunday, sells Point & Shoot(s) on every day of the week.
Nikon was not so concerned about losing the “Pro” as much as losing everything. If you cannot get to the masses you will fall behind or out of the picture entirely. Look at Canon’s site. I saw at last count; they had 9 DSLR cameras and 30 P&S models. They punch out these little babies faster than the lens hoods for a DSLR. My guess is the bottom line on the P&S’s keeps the R&D allocation for the entire company in the black.
I’ve been an Apple fan since the beginning; do you think the i-pod would be such a success if it were only available to Mac users? Ever hear of i-Tunes? Back in the day when we raced, winning on Sunday meant we were going to make money on Monday. If we added up all the FM members that own a Series 1 camera and ‘L’ lenses, do you really think Canon could survive on those $.
We are like the Stick that stirs the pot, generates an image, creates a feeding frenzy, if a Pro uses Canon than it must be the best. It is all marketing lest you forget those cute little Canon/Nike vests we will see running up and down the sidelines this year.
I hope the Nikon outperforms Canon in every aspect of the specs. announced today. I will finally be able to turn my wish list of Canon lens into reality without having to justify the cost. It is hard enough explaining to my wife why certain cars should only be driven in the summer, etc.
January and February should be like Christmas every day!! Now, I’ll simply say, “Yes Dear, I only use that lens three or four times a year, but look how much money I saved!”
GO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NIKON!!!!!!!!!!!!
Nice timing with the launch of those two bodies. The two new models from Canon doesn't look that cool right from the beginning of the launch.
I wonder if Canon can swallow the fact that they are the underdog now in terms of specification (albeit they are cheaper). I hope that they can't, and break their traditional product cycle period or drive the cost further down.
I like the trend the I'm seeing. I want them to be fighting with tooth and nails with each other. And eventually, this hobby would be easier on my wallet .
brainiac wrote:
The D3 looks awesome. Well done Nikon. I expect Nikon users are about to discover why full frame matters. Remember, it wasn't that long ago that Nikon was saying that DX was the future. What a U-turn.
However, don't forget that...
1) Canon has a 21 megapixel camera coming at about the same time
2) the awful F mount means you can't adapt lenses
3) Nikon doesn't yet have a lightweight full frame option
4) apart from the 900k LCD the spec lists for these cameras mostly seem to be about catching up to Canon rather than innovating
It's going to take a wide gap of superiority to get me to switch back to Nikon now that I have swapped out all my Nikon glass for Canon/Zeiss/Oly.
2 questions:
1) If 9fps 12MP full frame is possible at this price, what is the future of Canon's 1.3x crop?
2) Is Nikon making a loss per D3 in trying to get back into the game?
Edited by brainiac on Aug 23, 2007 at 09:21 AM GMT...Show more →
2 answers:
1) You can get a Red digital motion camera which shoots 50fps at 12MP. The cost is high but you see where it is going
2) Nope, it's just Canon making a huge profit on every 1Ds simply because there was no competition so far. Still, you do get 22MP instead of 12MP for the price difference.
Also, the awful F-mount allows you to use lenses made since time begun. What lenses do you need to adapt? The old Zeiss stuff? You can get new Zeiss stuff in F-mount if you want to.
And the new cameras are not actually catching up. They are priced and equiped to fit into different slots. One thing very few seem to notice is that Nikon and Canon never actually compete directly with each other. They always bring out models that always sit between the lower and higher speced model of the competitor. For example, the D3 is between the 1D and 1Ds. You get 1D performance, a 1Ds sized sensor and a resolution which is higher than the 1D but lower than the 1Ds.
When the D200 came out, it was priced between the 30D and the 5D. It offered more than the 30D, less than the 5D and at a price difference that a new buyer can reason and decide. And so on.
The only anomaly is the D300. It is cheaper than a 5D, offers way more than the 5D in everything but sensor size. In fact, it is almost a 1D in minature. It might even AF properly too!
But until someone tests these new cameras properly, we have no way of knowing what they can really do by reading the specs.
Wow!. Kudos to Nikon for bringing it, on Eos' birthday no less..I'll bet that was a big incentive for them; when is Nikon's or F-mount's birthday? ISO 25,600 !?, VGA res 3" LCD and a new inhouse designed FF sensor with speed to match, etc etc? That's not something you plan 3 weeks ahead, Nikon probably had a good look at how Canon went all lazy and dropped the momentum ball when releasing the 30D, which was really the 20D MK1.5, kinda like Aesop's Hare and Tortoise perhaps? Also consider the rumour that canon did a revamp of the 40D in february when it was slated for release but added additional features when probably it got word of Nikon's war path.
Not to say that this is bad for us, au contraire, but for Canon if the new nikons deliver not only on paper but off it as well, they'll be in for some good waking up, which of course is nice for us
Had the 40D high up on my list, but perhaps I'll hold out till the 16MP 10FPS 3" 1080p LCD, ISO 51200, 45 cross type f/2.8 point AF 50D comes out.
On their birthday..haha kudos nikon!
PS.
I'm of the opinion that 51 point AF might be overkill in the D300/40D segment, who's gonna really need that much AF, sure if the 40D had 11 or so points, great.... 51?
They sound VERY impressive. However, much like the ongoing 1D3 AF fiasco, specs are not worth the paper they are printed on until objective players take the units around the block.
Would I buy either? Yup. Would I even consider reaching for my credit card before December - Jan? Not on your life.
If Canon/Nikon want me to be a beta tester, I'll be happy to supply my shipping address; but I'm not paying for the 'priviledge'.
Hopefully Canon gets the D3 AF situation corrected ASAP and Nikon avoids a repeat of the re-sale-price-killing BS that was the D2H becomes the Hs and the D2X becomes the Xs.
Anyway you play it, it's wonderful for photogs - and our wallets.
!
