fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              25              27              39       40       end
  

Archive 2007 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses

  
 
dcmiller
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.26 #1 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


brunobarolo wrote:
To add just one point to Jeffs very accurate statement: From all the 40D samples and early user reports available today it seems clear that Canon have withheld their new sensor technology (which improved the Mark III high ISO capabilities so remarkably) from the 40D.



Improved the MKIII sensor technology so remarkably? Now we're just making things up.
The mkIII is maybe 1/2 stop better and the file is nicer. But nothing is "remarkably" compared to the IIn. There are many direct file comparisons online.
It's a meaningful but evolutionary upgrade from the older model. I expect the 40D will be the same.

I think we are bored with Canon's plodding competence and need something flashy.





Aug 30, 2007 at 05:53 PM
dcmiller
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.26 #2 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


David Baldwin wrote:
Well, as a longstanding but until now disappointed Nikon user I am absolutely thrilled to read about the D3's full frame sensor. Its lovely to see Nikon deciding to resume its traditonal role as a professional camera manufacturer. All that rubbish about APS-C being practically as good as full frame was embarrassing. Now my remaining Nikkors will work properly again.

Its a pity Nikon denied they were going to issue a full frame DSLR in the foreseeable future, if they'd told the truth 4 months ago I wouldn't have just sold most of my Nikon kit and splashed out on
...Show more

I expect it is a high fps 5D with noise ninja software in the camera. If that's true, very good for Nikon but not too exciting for most (bored) Canon technophiles.

Now, if they're achieving the high ISO the honest way, by a super clean sensor, the D3 is a revolutionary camera and I'll feel like an poor idiot for having purchased a 1DsIII.

But if that's true, why is there primary marketing emphasizing the 12 channel output? Who cares if the fps is achieved by 12 channels or 1 channels or a herd of nano cockroaches carrying the bits to the processor? So either 1) Nikons marketing has become super modest or 2) It's a modern big 2007 FF sensor without true noise correction and they run a bunch of software to smooth out the noise.

I guess there's a chance they've bested Canon and are getting a super clean signal to the A/D converter. But from the limited info I've seen my gut says no way.



Aug 30, 2007 at 06:12 PM
dcmiller
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.26 #3 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


Why is a discounter artificial?

Why does pricing high maximize profitability? Would you make more money as the founder of Tiffany or Wal Mart?

Do you have market data to suggest that Nikon is outperforming Canon in better dslr? Or in better lenses? Or is that an assumption?



Aug 30, 2007 at 07:18 PM
chez
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.26 #4 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


I think the bottom line here is that Canon folk were asking for a digital camera based on the EOS-3 for the last couple of years and it is Nikon that actually delivered it. Now tell me which company listens to the customer base and which company thinks they know better than their customers?


Aug 30, 2007 at 07:45 PM
jmcfadden
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.26 #5 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


dcmiller wrote:
I expect it is a high fps 5D with noise ninja software in the camera. If that's true, very good for Nikon but not too exciting for most (bored) Canon technophiles.

Now, if they're achieving the high ISO the honest way, by a super clean sensor, the D3 is a revolutionary camera and I'll feel like an poor idiot for having purchased a 1DsIII.

But if that's true, why is there primary marketing emphasizing the 12 channel output? Who cares if the fps is achieved by 12 channels or 1 channels or a herd of nano cockroaches carrying the bits to the
...Show more

Mr Miller

you really do need to think just a bit Before you hit the send button it seems

I just ask you a question , what do you think Digic does in a canon camera?


J



Aug 30, 2007 at 08:08 PM
dcmiller
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.26 #6 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


Jeff wrote:
I don't think I said any of that... I feel like we are in alternating planes of consciousness here, so I'm bowing out of this line of discourse.

Sleep well,

Jeff


That's fine. I was too lazy to do the html for a proper reply.



Aug 30, 2007 at 09:12 PM
Mark McCardell
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.26 #7 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


I dont think either manufacture is listening to the market.

I want a camera that will take a perfect picture every single time. I don't even want to think about ISO/aperture/shutter/white balance/etc.

I just want to point and shoot and allow the camera to supplant any skills that I might possess.

The Apple iCam is going to blow the socks off of anything Nikon/Canon has. It will come with an integrated 10-300mm f/1.2 lens with no pincushion/barrel distortion. 65MP; ISO100,000 Equivalent. 5in LCD

/sarcasm off.

Both companies are out to make a profit. If either one were truly 'not listening to the market' then they would go out of business. If one company is 'not listening to the market' and they are still turning a profit, then obvious a majority of said market is pretty stupid.



Aug 30, 2007 at 09:48 PM
jmcfadden
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.26 #8 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


I think Jeff you are also alluding to the philosophy which Canon has had To This Point of dishing out these incremental updates. For a Long time most canon users drank the koolaid as it were and the common remarks were that Canon was committed to R&D 'why just look at the short development cycle, see they are The Leader in blah blah blah.....'.

I think Those days are ending. Think what ya want folks when Nikon updates a camera or creates a new niche it makes waves and is very different than Canon's approach. I have lots of beef's with Nikon but the development / release / feature / value is not among them.

Look at the D1 it was a revolution. Then the D1h again both were Before the Canon cameras (which were more impressive in many respects) . Then the D100 again for the Nikon user it was a huge leap forward being almost 1/3rd the cost of a D1x yet had More resolution than the D1x flagship Nikon dslr pro body. Not to name all the releases but the D200 again was a Huge step up from the D100 and cost 400Less upon release. The D100 was a body that was made at the time of the D60 and then count the 10D, 20Dand 30D before Nikon updated the D100 to the D200. It is dawning on the "serial canon updaters" that that is a costly way to enjoy their hobby.

This competetion is good for us all , i hope the 5DII is a killer camera and not just an incremental improvement

J



Aug 30, 2007 at 10:26 PM
Beni
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.26 #9 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


I think it begs the question, is Canon providing the cameras we want or providing cameras which will enable the maximum profit?

Direct print button anyone? Photographers have been clamouring for MLU access via a button or switch but the DP button might sell printers.

Next question, do we want to work with a company that has been shown to care far more about it's shareholders than its customers? Can you imagine the fustration of a true camera nut like Chuck Westfall at having to market cameras which are built with profits in mind screw the customer?



Aug 31, 2007 at 03:36 AM
Beni
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.26 #10 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


Why are they bothering, the Japanese market is all Nikon!


Aug 31, 2007 at 07:55 AM
J.D.
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.26 #11 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


Well, I'm in Japan at the moment and if the market is all Nikon, nobody has told them. Have a look at the World Athletics Championships (which is what I'm covering) and count the white lenses. I'd say there are still more Canon than Nikon for the moment.


Aug 31, 2007 at 08:02 AM
afwaller
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.26 #12 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


The bottom of the market is all nikon, JD

Other segments are divided differently. Sports is mostly Canon, Weddings are more split, etc.



Aug 31, 2007 at 09:10 AM
Bruce Sawle
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.26 #13 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


This is from the Nikon board the ISO 200 and up the Noise levels look pretty impressive.

http://review.fengniao.com/64/644874.html



Aug 31, 2007 at 09:37 AM
jmcfadden
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.26 #14 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


Bruce Sawle wrote:
This is from the Nikon board the ISO 200 and up the Noise levels look pretty impressive.

http://review.fengniao.com/64/644874.html



i would say the ISO12K shot looks about like my D2x at iso 640


J



Aug 31, 2007 at 09:56 AM
CKrueger
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.26 #15 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


davewolfs wrote:
I completely agree. I for one have no concern for high ISO capabilities and I don't think you can compare a 5D to a D200, just as you cannot compare a 5D to a D3.

What we do know, is that the D200 was a superior camera to the 30D and again the D300 is superior to the 40D.

Perhaps since you are shooting race cars, you should consider the D3 as your 5D replacement.


Oh, I certainly am considering it as a replacement!

Here's my pickle: right now I have a 5D (does everything) and a 350D (my wife's camera). They're both great at their jobs. No complaints there. I use a friend's 1DMk2n when I can to shoot races, but I need to get my own "sports camera". The 1DMk2n works great when I can shoot flash, but is just barely usable in this horribly-low ambient light I shoot in (think high school football field), and it's only usable if I use my 50/1.4. My 50/1.4 works for certain shots, but to be really effective at the track I need a zoom, and I can't do that at ISO3200.

The 1DMk3's ISO6400 gets me very close to usable speeds with an f/2.8 zoom. The D3's ISO12800 would be perfect. But only if (and I'm skeptical here) its noise is low enough to make 8x10's that your average race car driver/team (read: non-photographers) would find attractive. Otherwise I might as well pick up a 1DMk3, cause its ISO6400 is just fine.

So I guess what has me exicted is the propect of what is potentially the first camera ever that has a high enough ISO performance to allow me to shoot f/2.8 zooms in very low ambient lighting. That GREATLY expands my capabilities. The icing on the cake is that it can also replace my general-purpose camera, giving me one camera to do everything.

So you can see that for my use, I definitely can compare the 5D to a D3. Not because the cameras are in the same segment, but because the D3 can do the job of the 5D for me. It just so happens it can ALSO do the job of a 1DMk3... and more.

It looks like if I convert all my Canon gear to Nikon, and replace my 5D and 350D with a D3 and D80, I'd eat about $2000. Trimming the fat I can get that down to $1400 or so. Comparing that price to even a used 1DMk2, Nikon looks to be the best route for me.

I've got two things left to consider. First, do the Nikon cameras live up to their specs? If not, this is all moot for me. Second, what will Canon announce in response? If they announce a 5D replacement that is essentially a D300 with a FF sensor (ie: 12Mpixel FF, >=6fps, ISO6400, 45-point AF), I'll buy that and stick with Canon. But I don't see them doing that, as they'd largely kill the 1DMk3 from a price standpoint.

I hope Canon fast-tracks a new model in rseponse, because if November rolls around and I find the D3 matches the 1DMk3 at ISO6400, and makes halfway-decent 8x10's at ISO12800, I'm going to have a REALLY hard time staying with Canon.



Aug 31, 2007 at 10:53 AM
CKrueger
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.26 #16 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


dcmiller wrote:
I've said this before, but how is it good that Nikon put itself in a position to be the price cutter with specs like 11 fps with out autofocus?


You keep harping on the 11fps thing... from my understanding, it just doesn't track AF during shooting in this mode. Would you similarly knock Canon if the 1DMk3 offered a 12fps mode that couldn't track AF? It's simply an extra feature that might be useful to you, or might not, but doesn't hurt you by its existence.

The D3 still does shoot at 9fps in a fully-functional manner. Just a few short months ago that would have been an upgrade for any Canon shooter. And lets be honest: there aren't many circumstances where 8fps vs 9fps vs 10fps would cause one camera to get the shot, and the other to miss it.

This 8 vs 9 vs 10 vs 11 thing is pure specmanship. Even 8fps is extremely fast, and will get the job done in all but the most specialized situations.



Aug 31, 2007 at 10:59 AM
dcmiller
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.26 #17 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


I would be very surprised is you couldn't make nice 8x10 at 12800. Especially with man made object that are solid color/continuous tone.
If you want these images to print directly out of the camera, the issue will probably be if luminosity noise is acceptably suppressed.
I suggest you try shooting your 5D at ISO 6400 equivalent (underexposed 1 stop at ISO 3200). Run that file through trail versions of various NR software and look at the printed result. I think what you'll find you can get a decent print once the software is "dialed in".



Aug 31, 2007 at 11:23 AM
dcmiller
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.26 #18 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


CKrueger wrote:
You keep harping on the 11fps thing... from my understanding, it just doesn't track AF during shooting in this mode. Would you similarly knock Canon if the 1DMk3 offered a 12fps mode that couldn't track AF? It's simply an extra feature that might be useful to you, or might not, but doesn't hurt you by its existence.

The D3 still does shoot at 9fps in a fully-functional manner. Just a few short months ago that would have been an upgrade for any Canon shooter. And lets be honest: there aren't many circumstances where 8fps vs 9fps vs 10fps would cause one
...Show more

I'm sure someone has an example of a practical use of 11 fps without AF, but I don't. I think Nikon was designing for 10fps, fell short, and decided to confuse the market. I don't need 10 fps it, but professional sport shooters asked for it for real applications. Considering these are professional cameras, as opposed to objects designed for technophiles to argue specs over.



Aug 31, 2007 at 11:37 AM
CKrueger
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.26 #19 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


dcmiller wrote:
I would be very surprised is you couldn't make nice 8x10 at 12800. Especially with man made object that are solid color/continuous tone.
If you want these images to print directly out of the camera, the issue will probably be if luminosity noise is acceptably suppressed.
I suggest you try shooting your 5D at ISO 6400 equivalent (underexposed 1 stop at ISO 3200). Run that file through trail versions of various NR software and look at the printed result. I think what you'll find you can get a decent print once the software is "dialed in".


Oh, the 5D can handle that job for sure. Pushing to ISO6400 gives a poor file with lots of chroma noise if shooting straight-out-of-the-camera JPEGs, which makes prints look very "digital". But shooting RAW gives a perfectly usable 8x10 when using Lightroom's noise reduction... the result (versus low ISOs) is a small loss of sharpness and noticeable (but not objectionable) luminance noise.

If the D3 has 1DMk3-like noise levels, I think it will be acceptable at ISO12800 for 8x10's so long as I shoot full frame and not cropped. Which leads me to wonder, why didn't Canon make these extended ISO modes available on the 1DMk3? Shooting a "native" ISO is so much more usable than pushing, and there are obviously plenty of us who are willing to accept considerable noise for certain kinds of shooting.

The ability of the D3 to function at a "true" ISO12800 is very attractive to me. Assuming that it looks any good, of course. I'm still pretty skeptical that Nikon has matched/eclipsed Canon's ISO performance, purely based on previous models.

dcmiller wrote:
I'm sure someone has an example of a practical use of 11 fps without AF, but I don't. I think Nikon was designing for 10fps, fell short, and decided to confuse the market. I don't need 10 fps it, but professional sport shooters asked for it for real applications. Considering these are professional cameras, as opposed to objects designed for technophiles to argue specs over.


I wouldn't want to speculate why Nikon designed the camera this way, but 9fps is plenty for my uses. Even 8fps was very good. So the added ability to shoot 11fps is a nice added feature on top of its already excellent frame rate.

Honestly, I can't see 9fps vs 10fps being a make-or-break feature for anyone deciding between the two cameras. It seems more a spec for people to use to champion their system. And as far as those go, sensor size, ISO performance, price, and some other major features seem more important to me.



Aug 31, 2007 at 12:37 PM
timbop
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.26 #20 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


I think the key point you are glossing over is that it will do 9fps with AF, and as mentioned 9 vs. 10 isn't really significant. What is significant is that the D3 is FULLFRAME 9fps, as opposed to 1.25 cropped 10fps.

Anyway, I am still vascillating on the switch to the D300 myself, mainly because I don't see a whole lot of affordable nikon glass for the wildlife shooter. Their only reasonably (by my definition) priced long lenses is the 80-400 which has slow AF or the 300 + 1.4TC which doesn't have VR. Not a whole lot of choice there unless you go Bigma. For sports their 70-200/2.8VR seems as good as the 70-200/2.8IS, but availability of anything from them is another issue.

I am still also waiting to see what the IQ is like, but I am definitely not happy with canon crippling the 40D and touting it as an advanced amateur camera.



Aug 31, 2007 at 12:43 PM
1       2       3              25              27              39       40       end




FM Forums | Canon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              25              27              39       40       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account