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Archive 2007 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses

  
 
jmcfadden
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p.24 #1 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


Jeff wrote:
It's better than anything else anyone's come up with so far. If you have any suggestions, I'm all ears. Have you worked with any 14-bit files, John?

Seems to me everybody (over your way) is getting caught up in DR discussions, which really don't directly apply to the 12- vs. 14-bit issue.

Regards,

Jeff


Jeff

I said Might because it is nearly impossible to really ascertain weather or not 14 is better than 12. It is a very interesting thing conceptually and of course i am an advocate of 12 bit over 8 bit so i have no dog in the fight really , just really would like to have seen More images that might help but alas perhaps it is something just to go along with. To be able to "see" it one would have to have an identical camera with the same DSP but Different bit depths. (sorta what we will have when the D3 arrives ) Surely Pondrias geek squad didn't really seem able to show it to us


J



Aug 28, 2007 at 06:40 PM
Ron Hew
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p.24 #2 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


jmcfadden wrote:
Jeff

I said Might because it is nearly impossible to really ascertain weather or not 14 is better than 12. It is a very interesting thing conceptually and of course i am an advocate of 12 bit over 8 bit so i have no dog in the fight really , just really would like to have seen More images that might help but alas perhaps it is something just to go along with. To be able to "see" it one would have to have an identical camera with the same DSP but Different bit depths. (sorta what we will have when
...Show more

Is D3 also capable of shooting 12 & 14 bit or is it only D300?



Aug 28, 2007 at 08:05 PM
timbop
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p.24 #3 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


Ron Hew wrote:
Is D3 also capable of shooting 12 & 14 bit or is it only D300?


I dunno, but the D300 shot gaping holes in the ballon of excitement over the 40D! Before it even ships we are already counting down for its replacement, and frankly I am tired of waiting for canon to make the camera I want. Or more correctly, the APS-C pro camera Nikon makes. I am really disappointed, because I really wanted to love the 40D and replace my 20D with it.



Aug 28, 2007 at 09:52 PM
Bruce Sawle
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p.24 #4 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


First of all the 40D is by no means a slouch. And stacks up equally to the D300 despite what everyone may think. Everyone actually reads into the marketing that Nikon has produced. Here is a break down. Let me know it i have left anything out.


1. It has 10 MP big deal it is not 12 do you think 2 mp makes that big a difference.
2. The canon sensors already have better noise at High ISO and having 10 MP as opposed to 12 on a APS-C will only be better at higher ISO regardless of what crap Nikon marketing feeds us. Unless Nikon secret sensor partner is Canon.
3. 51 focus points on a 1.5 crop is overkill. The 40 D has 9 cross type sensors that will be more than enough for a large majority of people. Hell I use only 5 or 6 different ones on my 1 series.
4. 40D 14 bit at 6.5 FPS or D300 14 bit at 2.5 fps
5. Weather sealing who takes there camera out in a poring rain with out a rain cover. Even 1 series cameras are not covered under warranty if they get wet. So why risk it.
6. Sensor cleaning is a wash neither will be worth it but it’s a nice novelty item.
7. LCD I don’t know about you but I do my editing on my Computer monitor and use my Cameras LCD solely for comp and exposure. I don’t need 9 zillion pixel dots or what ever Nikon calls them I am not watching a movie on it.



Aug 28, 2007 at 10:51 PM
J.D.
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p.24 #5 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


Interesting post Bruce. Not that I agree with everything but at least some people can sort the hay from the chaff. Each has its advantages at its price point and neither is perfect.

timbop: that balloon of excitement was probably larger and more intensely promoted here than anywhere else I've visited. Why do you think you will be disappointed with a 40D? Would you have felt any different had Nikon released the D300 six months later?



Aug 28, 2007 at 11:02 PM
Chuck Norris
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p.24 #6 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


Bruce Sawle,

So if the D300 has a Canon sensor would you buy it?
It does not matter if it is a Canon or Nikon, I will always go for the better image/ ISO quality.

I never plan to take any camera under the rain but you never know.






Aug 28, 2007 at 11:55 PM
Bruce Sawle
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p.24 #7 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


Chuck Norris wrote:
Bruce Sawle,

So if the D300 has a Canon sensor would you buy it?
It does not matter if it is a Canon or Nikon, I will always go for the better image/ ISO quality.

I never plan to take any camera under the rain but you never know.



Nope I happy with what I got and worrying about what Nikon has or Canon has is a waist of time and energy and out of our control for the most part. I would rather be out shooting. I have seen great pictures with a PS and bad pictures with a 1Ds MK II so to me it comes down to the photographer more than the camera a few MP and AF points.

These things are not going to make the photographer.

The quality of either of these camera is not in question I am confident they will both be stellar.



Aug 29, 2007 at 12:04 AM
jamato8
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p.24 #8 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


Someone I read of moved from an 8X10 to a 6X6 over time and was still celebrated. Which camera conveyed more information, the 8X10 or 6X6?


Aug 29, 2007 at 12:54 AM
davewolfs
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p.24 #9 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


Bruce Sawle wrote:
First of all the 40D is by no means a slouch. And stacks up equally to the D300 despite what everyone may think. Everyone actually reads into the marketing that Nikon has produced. Here is a break down. Let me know it i have left anything out.

1. It has 10 MP big deal it is not 12 do you think 2 mp makes that big a difference.
2. The canon sensors already have better noise at High ISO and having 10 MP as opposed to 12 on a APS-C will only be better at higher ISO regardless of what
...Show more

The 40D has just caught up to the D200. Convince yourself all you want, for the price the D300 offers much more value.



Aug 29, 2007 at 08:27 AM
Bruce Sawle
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p.24 #10 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


Jeff wrote:
And still others read into the marketing that Canon has produced.

Not sure about leaving anything out, but some thoughts on what you included:

1: I don't think too many people around here think the 2MP matter much; I certainly don't. I do, however, find it interesting that some of Nikon's bodies are now eclipsing the resolution of Canon's counterparts, after all these years of Canon being the 'resolution king'.

2: It would appear that you believe that Canon is the only manufacturer who can produce a low-noise sensor? Regardless of the suggested 'crap' from Nikon marketing, I've seen some damn fine
...Show more

I stand corrected I just hate all the Canon bashing in this Canon forum. It is very DP review. And I yes I like new technology as much as anyone hence the new MK III my over all points were not to discount what Nikon has produced but to help remind people that Canon has produced Fine cameras themselves, and to not read into Marketing hype until the Cameras have been field tested.



Aug 29, 2007 at 09:13 AM
Bruce Sawle
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p.24 #11 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


davewolfs wrote:
The 40D has just caught up to the D200. Convince yourse lf all you want, for the price the D300 offers much more value.
The D200 High ISO noise could not even hold a candle to an original rebel.



Aug 29, 2007 at 09:16 AM
Leif Goodwin
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p.24 #12 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


Bruce Sawle wrote:
First of all the 40D is by no means a slouch. And stacks up equally to the D300 despite what everyone may think. Everyone actually reads into the marketing that Nikon has produced. Here is a break down. Let me know it i have left anything out.

1. It has 10 MP big deal it is not 12 do you think 2 mp makes that big a difference.
2. The canon sensors already have better noise at High ISO and having 10 MP as opposed to 12 on a APS-C will only be better at higher ISO regardless of what
...Show more


You make a lot of assumptions about an unreviewed camera.

2MP difference => minor.
Sensor noise => wait for tests.
D300 = 8 FPS with the grip.
D300 = D3 focussing unit, apparently => wait for tests.
D300 = new metering system, apparently => wait for tests.
Sensor cleaning, probably won't work => wait for tests.

So, the Nikon marketeers promise a lot, and the only way to know how the pudding turns out is to wait for someone to stick a fork in and taste it. So, in a few months we will know.



Aug 29, 2007 at 09:18 AM
nikt
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p.24 #13 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


Jeff, very good post.

A couple of things in the mix to consider. These companies, all of them, take a bit of a punt as to what to release and what the others are going to release. They obviously want to release a camera they think will make them the most money, for the quantities they expect to sell.

The 40D was... on Monday of the announcement.... a pretty good camera; thats because it was being compared to the D200. The D200 is a still a great camera , but the 40D was certainly a better competitor compared to what the 30D was (on paper).

Canon were trying to make a camera that 'just' eclipsed the D200. What Canon didn't see (like the D200 before it) was the release of the D3 / D300 combo, since Nikon haven't been renowned recently for announcing products with such short time frames.

Nikon simply nailed the market (again, talking spec wise, reality might be different). I see the 40D as a very good camera, but there's something about a combo like the D3/D300 that has enormous advantages.

I believe Canon will release a similar combo.... eventually.

Nik



Aug 29, 2007 at 09:26 AM
nikt
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p.24 #14 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


Bruce Sawle wrote:
First of all the 40D is by no means a slouch. And stacks up equally to the D300 despite what everyone may think. Everyone actually reads into the marketing that Nikon has produced. Here is a break down. Let me know it i have left anything out.

1. It has 10 MP big deal it is not 12 do you think 2 mp makes that big a difference.
2. The canon sensors already have better noise at High ISO and having 10 MP as opposed to 12 on a APS-C will only be better at higher ISO regardless of what
...Show more


I'm still somewhat astonished people are talking about the 'Nikon marketing hype'. I'm pretty sure I kow who was the leading 'marketing' company in cameras for the past few years... with a boat load of hype to boot!

All I'm seeing... is points to deficencies against a competitor and then justifications. You're not employed by Canon are you?



Aug 29, 2007 at 09:39 AM
Bruce Sawle
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p.24 #15 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


nikt wrote:
I'm still somewhat astonished people are talking about the 'Nikon marketing hype'. I'm pretty sure I kow who was the leading 'marketing' company in cameras for the past few years... with a boat load of hype to boot!

All I'm seeing... is points to deficencies against a competitor and then justifications. You're not employed by Canon are you?


Nope have nothing to do with Canon and the Hype from both companies is just what it is hype. My points have been that dont read into the hype until the cameras have been used in real world situations.
Nikon Marketing more so then Canon has done exactly what it had hoped created a stir and may end up pulling some loyalist over. I give Nikon an A in this department. Interestingly enough When the MK III came out it had some pictures to compare the differences from pervious models. I have yet to see these from Nikon. I would love to see what they have. Oh and I shot Nikon for years before making the switch, and I am happy i did.



Aug 29, 2007 at 09:58 AM
jramos
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p.24 #16 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


I was about to make the switch to Canon, I am very unhappy with the D200 ISO performance that I got the D5 battery grip, flash, remote and I was saving to buy the 5D....but now I have to wait and see the Nikon D300 ISO test.




Aug 29, 2007 at 12:08 PM
jamato8
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p.24 #17 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


I started out with Ftn's years ago and always liked Nikon and then for some reason I switched to Canon. I never liked Canon as well as I guess there was a tie to Nikon as it was my original gear. I have used Canon in many tough situations and and only once did the camer and lens get so much water from a downpoor in Peru that it became usless but then dried out. I like the looks and feel of Nikon but I don't like the lens mount. It looks like Nikon is coming back into its own with FF. It would be very expensive to change over so I doubt I would do it but it would bring back old memories. :^)


Aug 29, 2007 at 12:24 PM
Tim Ashton
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p.24 #18 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


486 posts arguing about what?? Personal insecurity?

Go to Bjorn Rorslett's
http://naturfotograf.com/index.html page 8; "Taking on the Competition" where he and a friend who shoots Canon compare their repective D2X and 1DS MkII

Results CONCLUSIVLEY say you are all wasting your time. They are both amazing cameras giving amazing performance and resolution.

A similar comparison of the new product done sometime in the future will no doubt show the same



Aug 29, 2007 at 06:54 PM
dcmiller
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p.24 #19 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses



I'm kinda freaked by some of Jeff's comments. Someone take away his Canon Card. Fred? FRED!!

1) Nikon has pushed specs like resolution because it works on less sophisticated buyer. 11 fps without autofocus is a clue to their current mind set.

2) Yes Canon is the only company so far to make low noise SENSORS. The two ways to handle noise are a) make sure the signal is accurate before it's measured, or b) spend a ton of development time putting noise smoothing software into the camera so tests look good.
I'm looking for real noise reduction on Nikons new chips, and all I see now is an on chip A/D converter. Are they hiding the technology that now matched Canon? Strange.

Who said Nikon DSLRs can't take good photo's. Heck all currents dslrs take great photos at low to medium ISO.

3) It doesn't cost much (if anything) for Nikon to give away it good AF. Canon still wants to be paid for it. If the D300 has substantial noise improvement over the D200 it will be a great bargain professional sports camera. Nikon used to like to get a substantial premium for the market leading professional gear. Now their in the bargain business. Success? Falling way behind and needing to buy back in by discounts becomes genius. Interesting.

4) The signal needs to be clean enough to make 14 bits meaningful. We can have 32 bits, but if more than ten bits is below the noise floor it doesn't mean anything past 10 bits. Just random values. If Nikons "on chip noise reduction" is simply its AD converter knocking out erratic values, 14 bits will mean nothing on Nikon because they are still measuring the same dirty signal off the chip.

5) Canon has designed their pro bodies for year as weather resistant. Nikon surveyed the market and found that this feature was a selling point for Canon. But what about all the Nikon pro lenses? Those old fashion FF lenses. oh sorry FX lenses.

6) Hey, you like the sensor cleaning. Fred still needs your Canon card. Why aren't Nikonians crucifying Nikon for no sensor cleaning on the D3? Canon users would have absolutely freaked.

7) I don't know what your looking at, but Canon's LCD are generally considered the best. The MKIII is the best yet, with accurate colors. If Nikon is installing a superior one, great. Nikon needs to push and give stuff away. Canon will need to respond.

Have you ever worked with a D200 ISO 1600 file? A fuji digicam file is superior.

And this is comparing Canon cameras we have with Nikon camera they say they're making.

So hell yes, I'm switching to Nikon........



Aug 29, 2007 at 07:01 PM
dcmiller
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p.24 #20 · •Nikons Announced: D3, D300, lenses


Tim Ashton wrote:
486 posts arguing about what?? Personal insecurity?

Go to Bjorn Rorslett's
http://naturfotograf.com/index.html page 8; "Taking on the Competition" where he and a friend who shoots Canon compare their repective D2X and 1DS MkII

Results CONCLUSIVLEY say you are all wasting your time. They are both amazing cameras giving amazing performance and resolution.

A similar comparison of the new product done sometime in the future will no doubt show the same


Actually, we are having a conversation we enjoy. What are you doing?



Aug 29, 2007 at 07:05 PM
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