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Archive 2007 · Photography consulting, what to charge?

  
 
oviv
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p.1 #1 · Photography consulting, what to charge?


I have been asked by a company to help them setup a simple studio for shooting their products. The products are 3 dimensional art pieces and they just want to be able to get images that show sufficient details and that they can post on their website. Hiring me to shoot the products is out of the question as they have too many and can not afford all the time involved and the ongoing photography as they produce more products. They want me to suggest equipment and techniques and walk them through a few. I have no idea what to charge for this as I typically arrange a price for a shoot but have never done consulting like this. I am really not terribly exited about this as I would prefer to shoot but it is a friend of a friend.

Ovi



May 14, 2007 at 05:08 PM
Monito
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p.1 #2 · Photography consulting, what to charge?


Since your equipment is not involved, I would not advise charging your ordinary dayrate, especially since consulting is basically just time.

Presumably as a professional, you have training, even if only self-taught, so if we assume a $50,000 year as a low end professional person's income, net, then add at least 60 percent to cover things like health care and accounting and advertising, we get $80,000 at 2000 hours a year, yields $40 per hour. I would charge a minimum of $50 per hour, but strangely, you might be more likely to get the job if you asked $100 per hour, since there is an unconscious reaction that "if a person asks for a lot of money they must be good". But if you are billing at the elevated rate, you need to be efficient with the time and not try to squeeze every conceivable 15 minute increment out of it.

$100 is actually a more reasonable rate if you consider that you can't spend 2000 billable hours in a year. You have to spend time on business development (marketing), business record keeping (billing, taxes, etc.), and professional development (reading photo forums ).

Alternatively, you could explain to the client the estimated hours to analyze the objectives, research particular aspects, generate spreadsheets and prepare documents (no need to breakdown the estimate, just give an indication of the back office work) in addition to the tutoring and your rate (say $100) and then propose to them a fixed price contract for the advice, at a 10 percent discount line item since it is a package deal, and 3 percent off for payment within ten days of invoicing, 33% retainer fee up front. Make sure they know that any extras they come back for advice on get billed at the hourly rate.

Basically it boils down to the personal connection with the client. If you are confident and convincing and know your stuff, you'll be able to get a higher rate. Good luck and let us know how it goes.



May 14, 2007 at 05:29 PM
SoundHound
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p.1 #3 · Photography consulting, what to charge?


Since you are, basically, putting yourself out of their business I should think that you would be doing them a favor to work at your regular day/hourly rate. If taking too much of their money bothers you (and you have some other relationship with them to protect and want to appear cooperative and free of avarice) then solicit a donation to your/their favorite charity/foundation.


May 15, 2007 at 06:21 PM
caleb condit
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p.1 #4 · Photography consulting, what to charge?


Do the consult at your normal rate. Your time is your time, resulting from your expertise and talent. As a consultant, you should charge the same, if not more. You're spending less time so they can save money, but you only know what you do because of countless hours of research, study, and experience. I'd say at least 40-50 and hour (depending on your market) is a fair rate. Get them set up with lights, take some shots, show them how to shoot, and they just might be calling you up to shoot stuff in the future actually.

I consulted once, but was also going to be shooting as well. The company wanted me to help them purchase gear for their fall catalog vs renting that year, and I helped them spend their money, kind of fun. I then set up shot some shots. They also had an employee that was supposedly supposed to be shooting some really ugly unimportant catalog pieces, but his work was so bad, they had me shoot everything in the long run.

So, my point, charge a normal rate, if not a touch elevated and hope their employee doesn't provide good results. They'll see what we know- that just having a camera and a set of lights doesn't mean you can shoot good photos, or even acceptable ones.



May 22, 2007 at 03:08 AM
Phil Radlick
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p.1 #5 · Photography consulting, what to charge?


Monito's advice is excellent. He is right on with his analysis. I would only add that you should try to get a good idea of their budget for the equipment they will need to purchase for the set up. If it is too low they will not get acceptabe performance from it and you will be seen as the possible villain for the outcome. Best, Phil


May 22, 2007 at 09:05 AM
Brent Ward
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p.1 #6 · Photography consulting, what to charge?


I would charge them the regular rate.

Why should they get a discount when they are essentially putting you (or some other photog) out of business?



May 22, 2007 at 09:16 AM
Branden Mason
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p.1 #7 · Photography consulting, what to charge?


I would agree with Monito as well. Although I have a slightly different standard on how I do such things (although I am not a professional photographer, as this is just a hobby). Most of the things I do on the side (even with consulting) I do because I enjoy it, and I try not to make it a job. It has taken some time to acquire the reputation I have, but I get job offers quite often now to do many things. I do what all I do from experience and enjoyment, and my customers know that, as well as the fact that I know what I know from experience, and that I do not hold any kind of degrees or certifications for the work.

For that, I do not charge full rates, and every job is potentially different. Some jobs I will quote a flat fee for, others I quote by the hour (varying from $35-$75 an hour). I have never advertised but by luck I simply gained work by word of mouth, and I am also know for being very reasonable.

As I do not do these kinds of things as a job or my main form of income, I intentionally charge less than what it would cost for a professional to come in and do it, as professionals can be very expensive. In some professions the high costs are worth it, in others they are not, and being able to distinguish between the two is partly how I determine what I charge. I usually have the customer find out what a professional will charge (usually they already know) and from there I charge anywhere from 20-50% less.

What has been my best asset (or so many have told me) is not the cost savings I may offer, but that I take the time to explain things to them in a more simplistic manner that they are more familiar with, and do not overrun them with technical lingo they do not really understand. Sometimes this extra time ends up costing them more than having a proffessional come in and do it, but I have never had a complaint about my services, and quite often they pay me even more than the bill is for, because I take the extra time with them. I also do alot of side work that I may not bill for, just to go the extra mile to make sure they are happy.

With all that, there is a point to this. That being a decision you need to make in what you do with your business. Is the consulting aspect something you want to continue with or is it something you are just considering to do as a favor for a client? That in itself is probably one of the most important questions you need to answer to know what method of billing will fit your situation the best. Are you after a potential long term client, just out to provide a service under special circumstances, or do you want to offer such consultations as a normal business operation. Consulting services earn a reputation on their own, and word can spread quickly (good or bad), and that reputation can influence other aspects of your business.




May 22, 2007 at 10:28 AM
mmurph
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p.1 #8 · Photography consulting, what to charge?


I usually have the customer find out what a professional will charge (usually they already know) and from there I charge anywhere from 20-50% less.

I usually try to be *very* polite here, so please take this in that context. But what you just said is the very definition of lowballing!!

Set your rates at whatever you think you are worth. If not having a degree makes you worth less, that is up to you. But don't waste the time of pros to quote on a job they are by definition never going to get, because you will undercut any rate quote!!

I can consult on a number of things. Computers, web design, digital imaging in large installations (1 million plus images), scanning, photography, etc. But when I consult, I bill at a rate that *pays for my whole efing life*

I have to pay for a car, car insurance, business insurance, health care, accoutants, etc. Those are all figured in the rate.

If you don't include those, you are like the factory that thinks they can bid a small job low because their big, daytime customer covers all of the fixed costs - insurance, etc. You wind up making bad business decsions, and working at less than the true value of your work, because you do not understand your true cost of doing business.

And you will never be able to count on that new line of work when the old disappears on you, because you have "poisoned the well" on what that work is worth.

Two articles worth reading:

http://www.burnsautoparts.com/BAPsite/Manuals_files/lowballers.pdf

http://www.burnsautoparts.com/BAPsite/Manuals_files/CODB.pdf



May 22, 2007 at 12:19 PM
Branden Mason
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p.1 #9 · Photography consulting, what to charge?


mmurph,

I understand your concern with my statements, although I may not have explained myself properly. I do not intentionally try to undercut other professionals. Actually the situations I deal with are almost always in regards to customers who simply will not pay the prices the professionals charge. So, at least with them I am not stealing away customers, as they weren't going to pay the professional to do it anyways.

I also make my position well know to the customer. They know I am not associated as a professional (I simply have experience). I do the jobs as my time allows me to do it, therefore in many cases the job may not be done in the timeframe they need. These situations are simply jobs that are in my area of hobby enjoyment. I already have the equipment necessary for the jobs. It isnt my form of financial security, and if I made it as such I wouldnt enjoy doing it for my own personal purpose.

I also never do any kind of advertising, I dont ask anyone to do it for me either, but word spreads, which I cannot help. I stay pretty busy as it is so I do not do alot of that kind of work anyways, and as such I tend to turn down a fair amount. Generally, I simply try to limit such jobs to friends or their close relations.

But my pricing is not in order to try to steal away work. I price things how I feel it is worth in regards to the situation. People know that when I do any kind of work, I do not offer insurance for any possible problems or loss duringthe process, no bonding, no guarantees, no warranties, etc. With professionals they can offer this type of thing, but it does affect what they have to charge. I could probably charge the same as the professionals, but I would not feel right in doing so. For those who want that type of thing I also have lot of professionals with whom I refer them (actually I do more referring than work, as I just cant get around to doing most of it anyways). Actually, I have considered going into a form of consulting rather than the actual work as I have so many asking me who I would suggest for various jobs, but I never charge for that kind of thing. I'm simply out trying to help people out who are often in a jam or unable to afford professional services (sometimes I even do it at a loss). Usually I deal with people that really need something done, but are completely unable to pay for proessionals....for those that need professional work and are able to afford (even if they dont want to) I almost always refer them to the professionals, as that is not what I am after. I do alot of it because it is a hobby and if I can be paid a little for my time to further my hobby then wonderful...it typically works well for both parties.

In short, I do not try to steal away any business. Especially if I know a business is already in negotioations with someone to work out a deal to do the work, I will not do the job in those situations. Oddly enough though I have a few professional organizations which also refer some people to me. So, even though my attempts at an explanation above may have not been done so well, my reputation around here is very good and I have never heard of anyone feeling I was trying to low-ball them or steal business, but I can understand how it might sound that way to those not familiar with how I actually do things.

Actually, in reference to what I even do professionally as my main source of income, the situations remain similar. There are many situations which I know we can handle, but that I also know other professionals could do quicker. I almost always inform the customers in such situations that they would be better of dealing with someone more direct. Due to our reputation, they almost always still have use come out first and probably 75% of the time we still refer them over to someone else, meaning t he whole situation will cost them more than if they would have simply taken our advice to start with, but they simply prefer to deal with us, even if it costs more (considering that they were hoping to save some money to start with).

In regards to the purpose of this thread, my main point was simply directed more towards the fact that the OP should take into consideration if consulting is something he wants to begin offering as a regular business item, or if this is just a rare or one time thing...that may help determine some means of how to price his services. Just with many businesses just starting out, you may have to take a loss to get things going and to get the word out. Since this is new to him, his consulting abilities would not be on par with those who do it professionally and as such may not warrant the same pricing. However that is a line bordering both on business and moral, and that is not one for me to decide.




May 22, 2007 at 01:11 PM
mmurph
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p.1 #10 · Photography consulting, what to charge?



Sorry Branden,

I didn't include the posters name in the quote because I got the feel there was a bit more involved. I didn't want to call anyone out - we get some ugly threads as it is - but I thought it important to not let that comment stand as reflecting a good professional practice, for the reasons mentioned.

Best wishes!

Michael



May 22, 2007 at 02:08 PM
Branden Mason
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p.1 #11 · Photography consulting, what to charge?


well you were quite right mmurph, and it was a good call to point out, as I didnt clarify it very well. On an initial first glace it could come across as a quick means of trying to lowball the competition, which is not a practice that any professional should use, as reputations can build quickly upon such things and be harmful in the long run.

Since the OP will most likely be doing such a consulting service under his company's name, he does need to maintain a professional appearance and act accordingly. The reason for mentioning my means of pricing was simply to illustrate how I go about such things given my situation (non-professional), in hopes that it may help him in looking at how he might want to go about it in a professional sense (ie non-professional being less expensive). Hence I have no problem in getting $50 an hour for something a professional would get $100 an hour for. As the OP apparently is not exactly a professional consultant (although he may be perfectly capable of doing it), my suggestion would be to find a middle ground. If he wants to eventually offer a full professional consulting service, after some more experience he can work his way into the full pricing scheme of other professionals. As for someone doing such things in a professional business oriented manner, the OP should not really follow the way I do things, but it may help him to see how some non-professionals go about it.

At any rate I appreciate you bringing up that point. I try to cover all the angles I can think of, but in the process of trying to cover all the oddball situations, I sometimes completely miss the obvious



May 22, 2007 at 04:35 PM
mmurph
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p.1 #12 · Photography consulting, what to charge?


This is a thread from Leslie Burns-Dell’Acqua's blog that seems pertinent in this case. I am sure you are doing the right thing!

http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/

*************************************************************************************

After my presentation in Richmond, VA last evening, a photographer came up to me to discuss how we had once disagreed on one of the forums about how to handle a situation. The details aren’t important, but he wanted to show me that he thought he was still right. In fact, he probably was in that one very specific context but I never would have agreed with him on a public forum.

Why? Well, because his point would have been manipulated by others to become approval for working for free and, to defend against that, I thought it was important to take the other side in that argument. Too many photographers on that forum would have misread my approval for that one very specific situation (which may have warranted working for “free” because of a lot of other benefits) as approval for working for free in most even vaguely similar situations. I have seen it happen too many times on forums–someone says “in this one situation, this one response is a good one” and the masses take that ball and run with it, turning it into “in any situation sort of kind of like that situation, that answer is the best one!” Ugh. The danger of that misinterpretation weighted my response, so I chose to defend the other side.


*************************************************************************************

Best,
Michael



May 22, 2007 at 08:03 PM
Branden Mason
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p.1 #13 · Photography consulting, what to charge?


Well that certainly makes sense, although it runs in circles a bit...hehe.

I look at things a little bit differently I am sure, although I still view the situation (regarding the OP) in the sense of where his professional abilities are. As a professional photographer, I am sure he is able to give consulting advice, howver doing the actual work and being able to explain clearly to a customer how to do the work is quite often a different matter. Professional consultants can do this with relative ease, hence their fees are based on such an ability. Not everyone can easily explain what they do in layman's terms to others in a way that they can understand everything they need to know to accomplish a task that a professional would otherwise do for them. Maybe he can do this and maybe he can't, every customer will bring in a new set of hurdles to overcome, and professional consultants are usually prepared for this. Ask an educated professional telecom technician to explain in layman's terms how a PBX works to someone who doesnt know and more often than not they may just confuse the person even more, which is where the consultants come in.

Point being is whether or not the OP is confident enough in his abilities to do this kind of thing at the price the professionals do it at. If so, then he should pretty much know his answer right there. If not, then his time consulting may not be worth as much as the others, and he should account for that. If he charges nearly the same rate and cannot come across professionally and be understood then the customer may begin to feel that he is not as much as a professional as they were lead to believe (but that doesnt mean he couldnt actually do the work). At which point the customer may feel that they are being overcharged for his expertise (even though he may have the expertise but simply cannot relay it well to a customer). No professional wants to begin gaining that kind of reputation, as it can affect other parts of his business at which he may very well be a highly knowledgable expert at. If he were to otherwise adjust his price accordingly then the customers will know and likely understand the price difference, and may be fully acceptible to them.

I suppose in some areas, buy dropping ones price in this manner it could be considered a form of lowballing, but to me such a situation would not be. Maybe a professional would feel cheated that they lost a job to someone like that, but in that kind of situation, chances are if you asked that professional if the person's abilities warranted the price they get for the job, that they would tell you that his abilities would not. Therefore the lower price is understood. For a business venture, dropping one's price too low would not be good either, as then it does come down to a matter of simply getting a job over losing it due to lack of expertise and that does become a sense of lowballing.

These kinds of situations/questions and answers can really only be answered by the OP himself. He should know his pricing for other activities which should present him with an estimate of what his time is valued at to him. From there, he should be able to determine an average hourly or daily fee to charge for his time that will result in being what his time is really worth. If that happens to come out to being substantially less than what other professional consultants get, then that isnt exactly lowballing either, as that is simply what he has set his time value to be, but that doesnt mean he cant up his price to be more in line with what the market is getting, but again that is a decision for him to make.

As far as how part of my actual living goes we do similar work in the advertising business. We sell some of the most expensive signs available today. We price competitively when we can, although just like lowballing, many places also highball the prices by enormous amounts (IE bidding a job over $50,000 higher than everyone else). Generally that is done to simply fulfill requests for jobs they dont want to do, as we deal with customers who require multiple bids before accepting anything. Although we do not highball bids, we are quite often the most expensive, yet we also quite often get the jobs. Partly because we are also the only place in the US who can do what we do, but many other alternatives are available.

Anyways, the purpose here is to try to help the OP. mmurph has supplied some very useful links that should help the OP in determining how to value his time for such work, but one of the greatest determining factors (to me anyways) is how confident is the OP in doing that kind of work?



May 22, 2007 at 11:21 PM





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