If someone is interested: in a german forum a french info about the coming cashback for Europe has been posted:
"A l'occasion du 20me anniversaire de la monture EF, du 1er avril au 30 juin 2007
A l'achat d'un 30D un cash back de 100 euros +
Canon EF 24-105 F4 USM IS - 45 euros
Canon EF 17-55 F2.8 USM IS - 50 euros
Canon EF 135 F2 L USM - 50 euros
Canon EFS 10-22 F3.5-4.5 USM - 80 euros
Canon EF 200 F2.8 L II USM - 50 euros
Canon EFS 17-85 F4-5.6 USM IS - 150 euros
Canon EF 70-300 F4-5.6 USM IS - 50 euros
Canon EF 100 F2.8 macro USM - 30 euros
Canon Flash macro MR 14 EX - 30 euros
Canon EFS 60 F2.8 macro USM - 20 euros
Canon EF 50mm F1.4 USM - 20 euros
Canon Extender 1.4x II - 15 euros
Canon Flash speedlite 430 EX - 15 euros
Canon EOS 30D + Canon EFS 17-55 F2.8 IS USM 2129 euros
Canon EOS 30D + Canon EFS 17-85 F4-5.6 IS USM + Canon EF 70-300 F4-5.6 IS USM 2464 euros
Canon EOS 30D + Canon EFS 17-85 F4-5.6 IS USM + Flash speedlite 430 EX 2142,48 euros
Canon EOS 30D + Canon EFS 10-22 F3.5-4.5 USM 1949 euros
Canon EOS 30D + Canon EF 100 F2.8 macro USM 1669 euros
A l'achat d'un 5D un cash-back de 150 euros +
Canon EF 70-200 F2.8 L IS USM - 200 euros
Canon EF 100-400 F4.5-5.6 L IS USM - 80 euros
Canon EF 16-35 F2.8 L II (new) USM - 100 euros
Canon EF 300 F4 L IS USM - 120 euros
Canon EF 180 F3.5 L macro USM - 70 euros
Canon EF 24 F1.4 L USM - 150 euros
Canon EF 35 F1.4 L USM - 150 euros
Canon EF 24-70 F2.8 L USM - 70 euros
Canon EOS 5D + Canon EF 24-105 F4 L IS USM + Canon EF 100-400 F4.5-5.6 L IS USM - 5349 euros
Canon EOS 5D + Canon EF 24-70 F2.8 L USM - 4039 euros
Canon EOS 5D + Canon EF 50 F1.4 USM + Flash Canon Speedlite 220 EX - 3599 euros
Canon EOS 5D + Canon EF 180 F3.5 L macro USM - 4349 euros
Canon EOS 5D + Canon EF 180 F3.5 L macro USM + Flash macro ring lite 14 EX - 4979 euros
Canon EOS 5D + Canon EF 24-105 F4 L IS USM - 3697,25 euros
Nouveaux packages 400 D :
Canon EOS 400D + Canon EFS 60 F2.8 macro USM - 1139 euros
Canon EOS 400D + Canon EFS 17-85 F4-5.6 IS USM + Canon EF 70-300 F4-5.6 IS USM - 2075 euros
Canon EOS 400D + Canon EFS 17-85 F4-5.6 IS USM + grip BG-E3 - 1537,77 euros
Canon EOS 400D + Canon EFS 18-55 F3.5-5.6 II - 922,25 euros
Canon EOS 400D + Canon EFS 18-55 F3.5-5.6 II + Canon EFS 55-200 F4.5-5.6 II USM - 1230 euros"
Huh, Canon has to clear out stocks in Europe. No wonder, other companies are underpricing them left and right now. Other than Canon sports pros and the Olympus 4/3 faithful this PMA is turning out to be a dud.
Doesn't look like stock clearance to me. More like gaining newcomers. It is crucial for the DSLR manufacturers to get them decided for their system line-up.
And the 20th anniversary of the EOS system is a good occasion to promote this.
I don't quite understand why some believe the 30D replacement will have an APS-H (1.3x) sensor. The 30D/20D bodies are immensely popular with serious wildlife photographers (including many pros, like myself), precisely because of the 1.6x crop factor. They are well built, their size and weight make carrying them easier, they certainly are rugged enough for professional use, and despite all the whining about their autofocus capabilities, they peform very well in this regard.
Canon does not offer a pro body with this sensor size, but Nikon does. If Canon were to drop the 1.6x sensor on even their prosumer line of bodies, they'd drive business to Nikon, whose entire line of digital SLRs has a 1.5x crop.
I don't understand why you say that if Canon dropped the 1.6X sensor that would drive business to Nikon!
Nikon has 1.5X and Canon would have 1.3X. I hardly think there is a big difference there. True, we would lose a little telephoto but gain on the wide end a little.
I do agree with your statements on how well built the 30D/20D bodies are but I fail to see why that affects the proposed 40D replacement. I would assume it would be built to the same standards and possibly better with some sealing. It's the 1.3X that is the issue here.
mfurtman wrote:
I don't quite understand why some believe the 30D replacement will have an APS-H (1.3x) sensor. The 30D/20D bodies are immensely popular with serious wildlife photographers (including many pros, like myself), precisely because of the 1.6x crop factor. They are well built, their size and weight make carrying them easier, they certainly are rugged enough for professional use, and despite all the whining about their autofocus capabilities, they peform very well in this regard.
Canon does not offer a pro body with this sensor size, but Nikon does. If Canon were to drop the 1.6x sensor on even their prosumer line of bodies, they'd drive business to Nikon, whose entire line of digital SLRs has a 1.5x crop.
It will happen if they can't keep up in the megapixel race with the 1.6 sensor. The entry camera would remain 1.6, but if the future xxD cameras need to stay closer to the 200D line, they may need a larger sensor. Especially if they want to keep the low noise advantage. A 40D with a 10mp 1.3 sensor would be a nice camera - more than a 2mp upgrade. As far as a 1.6 crop allowing users to take advantage of less expensive lenses, I'm not so sure that Canon likes that feature.
Maybe the reason Canon hasn't brought out the 40D is because WE are so confused about what we want in it!
I have read all I can find on here and one thing that is evident here. WE cannot agree on what the replacement will be. 1.3X, 1.6X, weather sealing, larger viewfinder, 6400 iso, etc. etc. etc.
Someone has said that Canon is listening! Well, if they are they're totally confused just like us.
I really believe that Canon has planned the camera based on their design and also based on what the consumer wants. I also believe that we will be very pleasantly surprised when it finally does come out and it will be more than a warmed over 30D.
dcmiller wrote:
It will happen if they can't keep up in the megapixel race with the 1.6 sensor. The entry camera would remain 1.6, but if the future xxD cameras need to stay closer to the 200D line, they may need a larger sensor. Especially if they want to keep the low noise advantage. A 40D with a 10mp 1.3 sensor would be a nice camera - more than a 2mp upgrade. As far as a 1.6 crop allowing users to take advantage of less expensive lenses, I'm not so sure that Canon likes that feature.
There is no way canon is going to leave the entry level dSLR as the only series capable of using a 'cheap' $1000+ lens. The E-FS lenses are not much cheaper than the full frame ones, and I'd be willing to bet their manufacturing costs are corresdpondingly lower. In fact,canon is probably more than happy with the money it's 17-55/2.8 and 10-22 bring in. People will be reluctant to by E-FS lenses if they can only use them with the entry level. It is to their advantage to have a semi-pro, or even pro, 1.6x camera so that people will be willing to shell out the money for an expensive E-FS lens, with the hope of upgrading to a 1.6 proish camera. Then eventually they might move to a full frame and buy more expensive glass... they get money twice that way.
As far as megapixels, I don't care how many megapixels a camera has if I'm shooting birds. I care about pixel density. A 10 megapixel 1.3x crop doesn't help at all (it hurts, actually), no 1.6x wildlife shooter would buy a 1.3x 10mp camera if the rest of the features were similar to a 30D, a loss in pixel density for a loss in length? That just doesn't make sense. And it's not even a 2mp upgrade (10-8.2<2)
Sure a 1.3x 10mp 1D3 wouldn't be too shabby, but it'd be better if it were a 1.6 10mp with similar focus to a 1D3.. now that would sell like hot cakes to any birder.
Stefan Ebert wrote:
If someone is interested: in a german forum a french info about the coming cashback for Europe has been posted: (e.g.)
Canon EOS 5D + Canon EF 24-105 F4 L IS USM - 3697,25 euros
Canon EOS 400D + Canon EFS 18-55 F3.5-5.6 II - 922,25 euros
Stefan
The quoted kit prices look like extremely conservative recommendations. Much lower prices are available today in Finland (with 22% VAT) for a few kits, e.g.
- Canon 5D + 24-105 = 3299 euros
- Canon 400D + 18-55 = 780 euros
floris wrote:
There is no way canon is going to leave the entry level dSLR as the only series capable of using a 'cheap' $1000+ lens. The E-FS lenses are not much cheaper than the full frame ones, and I'd be willing to bet their manufacturing costs are corresdpondingly lower. In fact,canon is probably more than happy with the money it's 17-55/2.8 and 10-22 bring in. People will be reluctant to by E-FS lenses if they can only use them with the entry level. It is to their advantage to have a semi-pro, or even pro, 1.6x camera so that people will be willing to shell out the money for an expensive E-FS lens, with the hope of upgrading to a 1.6 proish camera. Then eventually they might move to a full frame and buy more expensive glass... they get money twice that way.
As far as megapixels, I don't care how many megapixels a camera has if I'm shooting birds. I care about pixel density. A 10 megapixel 1.3x crop doesn't help at all (it hurts, actually), no 1.6x wildlife shooter would buy a 1.3x 10mp camera if the rest of the features were similar to a 30D, a loss in pixel density for a loss in length? That just doesn't make sense. And it's not even a 2mp upgrade (10-8.2<2)
Sure a 1.3x 10mp 1D3 wouldn't be too shabby, but it'd be better if it were a 1.6 10mp with similar focus to a 1D3.. now that would sell like hot cakes to any birder.
...Show more →
There, you both summarised Canon's strategy very nicely, they are going full frame... eventually The trick is to do it gently, slowly weening photogs off 1.3xs and 1.6xs, without pi***** too many customers off all at once.
I wonder how wildlife shooters survived back in the old film days, with no crop factors to rely on... tut tut tut... must have been tough
floris wrote:
Sure a 1.3x 10mp 1D3 wouldn't be too shabby, but it'd be better if it were a 1.6 10mp with similar focus to a 1D3.. now that would sell like hot cakes to any birder.
Sure and everyone would love a Bugatti Veyron for $80K instead of $1.4 Mil. Similar focus would mean a price that was starting to be similar also, which everyone would not love.
Canon appears to me to be somewhat trapped in the 1.6, 1.3 & full frame mode. They don't want to alienate the birders, etc. who love 1.6, or the PJ's who want 10 fps more than they want megapixels or FF. So instead of being able to build1 or at worst 2 sensor sizes, they are stuck with 3.
This will continue until they have a Digic X that allows for both the fps and the high mpixel at full frame, assuming that this can be accomplished.
danmitchell wrote:
"Abandoning" the EF-S lenses (and I'm not saying that such a move is occurring any time soon) would not likely be a big problem for Canon as long as they draw down inventory first. If they were to move away from crop sensor cameras (at least above the entry level) there would be little demand for high quality EF-S lenses such as the 10-22 and the 17-55 any more. If anything, as owners of older 20D/30D/other crop bodies moved to full frame the demand would dry up on its own
Lenses are like other accessories, the fact that new cameras are being made in that mount has little to do, with whether there is a market for lenses or not. Konica left the SLR business 20 years ago, and there is still a market (a fairly small one, these days) for lenses in the K/AR mount. As long as existing EF-S cameras are in service, there is a market for lenses. Considering that digicams are dependant on software, that runs on specific operating systems, I don't expect a digital camera to still be in service 20 years from now, the market for lenses would certainly last 7-10 years, even if they quit making the cameras tomorrow.
Take me for example. I have a 300D, biggest print I am liable to make is 8 x 10 -- in 30 years of film shooting, I never made a print larger then 8 x 10, I doubt that I am suddenly going to start making huge prints. Now suppose I have $1500 to spend, that's easy, I am investing in better glass, because the camera works for what I need today. Heck one of my film cameras is consumer level, and it's 30 years old, got some nice glass for it too.
I am happy with my 30D, and when I see someone at the club showing great photos made with a 20D, all it tells me is he/she has been at it a while. I don't upgrade my Mac every year even though the opportunity is always there. It feels good to have an old friend handy, whether on your desk or in your camera bag.
1.6 is important to some of us. I shoot from a kayak; I need a small camera/lens combo that gives me as much tele as possible. The 30D with the 70-300 works great. I'll be trying the 30D with the 100-400 soon. Here's hoping 1.6 is here to stay.
dan9 wrote:
Huh, Canon has to clear out stocks in Europe. No wonder, other companies are underpricing them left and right now. Other than Canon sports pros and the Olympus 4/3 faithful this PMA is turning out to be a dud.
What if Nikon release their D3 Full frame camera? Not saying they will or anything, but will that keep it somewhat interesting?
JohnnyGCanon wrote:
Nikon has 1.5X and Canon would have 1.3X. I hardly think there is a big difference there. True, we would lose a little telephoto but gain on the wide end a little.
One look at the viewfinders will show you the difference. It's much more significant than the focal length difference.
As I've said elsewhere, Canon is having a bludge, sitting on its rear-end, because it knows that it has the technology to best competitors. This is not good for the consumer imho.
melkor wrote:
As I've said elsewhere, Canon is having a bludge, sitting on its rear-end, because it knows that it has the technology to best competitors. This is not good for the consumer imho.
Dave
Yeah, they really dropped the ball with that 1DMkIII....
melkor wrote:
As I've said elsewhere, Canon is having a bludge, sitting on its rear-end, because it knows that it has the technology to best competitors. This is not good for the consumer imho.
