flatdraft wrote:
i don't know what we're in store for with the 1Ds3 but i'd much rather see a 16 or 18 megapixel sensor with 16-bit capture and 12 stops of DR than i would a 22 or 24 megapixel sensor with 14-bit capture and 10 stops of DR. hopefully canon puts quality over quantity and realizes that more is not always better.
-erik
Well said. I'm still waiting for a FF 8MP camera with incredible (by today's standards) ISO, D/R, and S/N performance.
I went to Best Buy during my lunch hour to see if I could get any better information about the 30d being discontinued. I told the sales associate that I heard the 30d was "yellow tagged" to be discontinued. He said "no, you must have mis-heard, the 5D was yellow-tagged but Canon decided not to discontinue it just yet, but that will be the first to go." So, take from it what you wish, this comes from a Best Buy associate and I couldn't get him to look in the computer, because he "knew what he was talking about." Just thought I'd throw my experience in here, doesn't really change a thing for me, someone may have better luck at Circuit City or another Best Buy.
D Smith wrote:
I went to Best Buy during my lunch hour to see if I could get any better information about the 30d being discontinued. I told the sales associate that I heard the 30d was "yellow tagged" to be discontinued. He said "no, you must have mis-heard, the 5D was yellow-tagged but Canon decided not to discontinue it just yet, but that will be the first to go." So, take from it what you wish, this comes from a Best Buy associate and I couldn't get him to look in the computer, because he "knew what he was talking about." Just thought I'd throw my experience in here, doesn't really change a thing for me, someone may have better luck at Circuit City or another Best Buy. ...Show more →
Sounds like damage control to me.
I dont think we have to choose between DR and mega pixels. I think they give us all the DR they can and all the mega pixels they can. Its not either or.
sifpandor wrote:
i don't know what we're in store for with the 1Ds3 but i'd much rather see a 16 or 18 megapixel sensor with 16-bit capture and 12 stops of DR than i would a 22 or 24 megapixel sensor with 14-bit capture and 10 stops of DR. hopefully canon puts quality over quantity and realizes that more is not always better.
I totally agree with this statement. Unfortunately, the megapix is only stat that many use to compare cameras. Personally, I don't care how many pixels the camera has. I want a larger sensor that can produce more dynamic range, which I hope is the way Canon is also thinking.
Pondria wrote:
The bit depth will help reducing the posterization. But DR is basically S/N of the sensor.
By the way, DR should never be a issue with the current Canon cameras. People are usually complaining about the blown highlights. If the BHL is centered around the light source ( like Sun or light bulb or direct reflections ). Forget it. No DR can handle that.
When the large area is blown out - like Clouds, or white papers or cloth, it is a exposure problem.
The problem may be in how we want to define DR. There is no black blacker than black, and there is no white whiter than white. If a camera is truly capturing those areas that are black and only black, and likewise at the higher end of the value scale, captures those areas of true white, there must be an infinite number of values between these two poles.
The human eye can perceive many levels of "dark" before it is perceived as black and likewise there are many levels of light that are not quite white. True dynamic range is the ability to discern these subtle gradations along the scale. While we don't need an infinite number of values as exist in reality, we do need to have more leeway before clipping occurs on either end.
I'm not an EE, but I do know that blown highlights are not simply "exposure" problems. A sensors inability to capture the full range of values within a scene is simply that, a failure to capture the true range. This range is "dynamic" and will vary with each scene. We experienced the same problems 20 years ago with film so it's nothing new. Since the new 1D3 sensor has the ability to differentiate more gradations within a scene, effectively not turning shadows to black and separating lights from whites, I still believe that this must be an increase in the DR that a sensor can handle. When cameras can nearly equal the lights and darks we see, we will come to the point of a complete DR.
Again, the major tenets here being black and white are fixed and immutable.
Edited by jamesf99 on Feb 26, 2007 at 05:32 PM GMT
Grant808 wrote:
I'm still waiting for a FF 8MP camera with incredible (by today's standards) ISO, D/R, and S/N performance.
I don't think that would be a usable camera. If you put 8 megapixels on a full frame sensor (i.e. the same 3504x2336 of the 30D), you'd get a stunningly low 49 lpm sensor resolution. You would be limited to very tiny crops, and your sensor wouldn't be able to take full advantage of high resolution lenses (though it would still benefit from their improved microcontrast, distortion, flare, etc).
When measuring by resolved detail per unit area, the 5D already has the lowest resolution of any DSLR currently on the market at 61 lpm. Diluting that by 1.6-fold would really impair your fine detail capture. I think 12.8 (more or less) MP is probably the lowest acceptable pixel count that's worth putting on a 36x24 sensor.
DrPablo wrote:
I don't think that would be a usable camera.
(snip)
Well, you are welcome to disagree, but I still use two similarly pixel-sized cameras (D30 and Sigma SD10) and they are very hard to beat for per-pixel quality with mediocre lenses. Not everything I print is double page spread or larger. And excellent micro-contrast lenses on the 5D start to run into problems with moire and false color. I'll take bigger pixels if they make them.
All the discussion on DR is great, but I'm wondering if anyone has thoughts on the sensor itself (i.e., the photodiodes and the pixels).
What seems to be the answer here? I don't think they'll make it just like the 1D3, but who knows. It seems like Canon is varying their sensors quite a bit.
Any thoughts on what we'll see (yes, I know the year+ old 22MP rumor) but I'm not sure that will be it. If we can drive this thread back I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.
Well, at the Best Buy here in Memphis, TN, they had nothing at all different about the 30D. They don't carry the 5D, so I couldn't tell you about it. I wish that 40D would hurry up.
Hm.. well I checked out the Circuit City on Union Sq, and they only knew that they were expecting the 30D replacement sometime this year, but the 30D wasn't on display with the other DSLR's, it was locked in the glass case below, with just its price sticker where it used to be.
Here's a pic from the BestBuy from yesterday also:
not an open box one either, so I still have no idea.
IMO, the 1DsIII will be exactly the same as the 1DIII but with a FF sensor - that is, a 16.7mp, 14-bit FF sensor.
The 5D and the 1DIIN had the same pixel pitch. Both sensors seem to have been made with the same technology and (presumably) even on the same production lines. Now the same thing is happening with the 1DIII and the 1DsIII.
It’s interesting if Canon will standardize on 16mp FF sensors or will keep manufacturing the 5D sensor as well.
Btw, the old 22mp rumor so far hasn't materialized. As of 2007, Canon has not merged the 1 series. Considering that the 1DIII just came out and that its projected lifecycle must be at least 3-4 years, merging the 1-series will not happen in the next 3-4 years. Besides, because of optical diffraction, I doubt Canon will decrease pixel size beyond 7 microns in their pro sensors. That means 16-18mp FF will be the most that we'll see in a pro body in the next couple of years.
Of course the 22MP rumour hasn't materialized, neither has the 1Ds III. It won't be 16.xMP. Nikon will be delivering a 22-24MP FF camera aka the D3X within 12 months, maybe this fall. You can bet the 22MP number is more than a rumour. I think though 22MP maybe the limit some will accept, although the Olympus' and Sony's seem to think we can go much smaller. Their E400 has pixel pitch equivalent to a 40MP FF.
Why do you think Nikon will deliver? I heard the same rumor when I talked to a Nikon guy last year (he said it would be this year) but I can't get any confirmation.
Do you have something that you think makes it more real?
We are on to something with BestBuy! They are back pedaling. Once the word was out what they were telling customers, discountined, new one in April, etc...the store clerks were all told to Keep quiet about the new one. Just sell the 30D. That is not an open box sticker! That is a discountined sticker....The new 40D is on its way! sooner than I though last week!
I will NOT buy a 30D! I will wait for the 40D or the new 5D this summer...can't wait. My rebel will hold me out!
