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Archive 2007 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread

  
 
Monito
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p.37 #1 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Lenses are designed to render flat subject planes as flat image planes. Not only would curved sensor planes be impractical to manufacture with today's technology, but they would be incompatible with almost every single photographic lens ever manufactured.



Jan 26, 2007 at 05:33 PM
Tentacle
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p.37 #2 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Curving a sensor plane? Oh boy, that's not a can o' worms, that's a 40 foot sea container full of worms:

You need dish shaped wafers. Try cutting that out of silicon billet. Then try to use curved shapes in a stepper scanner. Oh wait... your stepper scanner litho equipment needs to project its mask on a curved surface. Not to mention that the whole sensor production line needs to be adapted for non-flat specimens. Then there are the lenses. They need to be designed and build from the ground up for projecting on a curved plane. That's relatively easy for a prime, but not so for a zoom. And how are you going to place the shutter? You can't put the shutter right in front of the sensor, because the opening will not be equidistant to the sensor anymore. Can you make a horizontal curtain shutter dish shaped? If not, then you need a shutter at the optical node. OOPS, that's in the lens, not in the body. And how about sensor alignment? Now you need to have the sensor parallel and at a set distance. A little shift upwards or downwards isn't a problem. With a concave sensor, all of a sudden you need to get it aligned on 2 more axis.

Need me to speculate any more on the matter? Canon will first go for something like asymetrically shaped microlenses, offset microlenses (like on the Leica M8 sensor) or maybe even microdiffusers, like someone else already mentioned.

Edited by Tentacle on Jan 27, 2007 at 12:10 AM GMT (Reason: typos)



Jan 26, 2007 at 05:44 PM
jamesf99
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p.37 #3 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Strid3r wrote:
..........owning $20,000 worth of equipment or more is absurd....



Dilettante!



Jan 26, 2007 at 05:51 PM
Hrow
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p.37 #4 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


OK, it is now the weekend in many parts of the world. Please go out and drink heavily and perhaps on Monday we can reconvene here and pretend that the whole curved sensor thing never happened and get back to the normal level of silliness.


Jan 26, 2007 at 06:02 PM
Brent Ward
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p.37 #5 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Monito wrote:
Lenses are designed to render flat subject planes as flat image planes. Not only would curved sensor planes be impractical to manufacture with today's technology, but they would be incompatible with almost every single photographic lens ever manufactured.


Exactly. But without film, there really is no reason to project a flat plane anymore if they could come up with a curved sensor. Wouldn't that also increase performance on the sedges of wide angles?



Jan 26, 2007 at 06:11 PM
Tom_W
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p.37 #6 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Hrow wrote:
OK, it is now the weekend in many parts of the world. Please go out and drink heavily and perhaps on Monday we can reconvene here and pretend that the whole curved sensor thing never happened and get back to the normal level of silliness.


To paraphrase Jimmy Buffet, 'why don't we get drunk and post?'



Jan 26, 2007 at 06:24 PM
silverhalide
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p.37 #7 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Monito wrote:
they would be incompatible with almost every single photographic lens ever manufactured.


I never questioned this; actually, I sort of assumed it. Hence, the need for a new mount, etc.

Tentacle wrote:
Curving a sensor plane? Oh boy, that's not a can o' worms, that's a 40 foot sea container full of worms:


hehe. Now there's a vivid image.

You need dish shaped wafers. Try cutting that out of silicon billet. Then try to use curved shapes in a stepper scanner. Oh wait... your stepper scanner litho equipment needs to project its mask on a curved surface. Not to mention that the whole sensor production line needs to be adapted for non-flat specimens.

This is the kind of response I was hoping for. I knew there had to be reasons this hadn't been done.

Then there are the lenses. They need to be designed and build from the ground up for projecting on a curved plane. That's relatively easy for a prime, but not so for a zoom.

Why is this so? If we can design a lens to focus on a flat plane with a variable focal length, and we can design a lens to focus on a curved plane (hmm, that term is an oxymoron I think), why can't we design one to focus on a curved plane with variable focal lengths.

I had actually been wondering if the requirement to focus on a flat plane was hampering lens/camera design, and if it was an artifact from design decisions made a hundred years ago.

And how are you going to place the shutter? You can't put the shutter right in front of the sensor, because the opening will not be equidistant to the sensor anymore.

So? is there a requirement that the shutter be equidistant from the sensor? or can it be placed anywhere between the sensor and the mirror?

What is the effect of a non-equidistant shutter? All I can guess at is that the shadow cast on the sensor by the shutter curtain would be more or less sharp at different places, but I don't know how this would affect things.

Can you make a horizontal curtain shutter dish shaped? If not, then you need a shutter at the optical node. OOPS, that's in the lens, not in the body. And how about sensor alignment? Now you need to have the sensor parallel and at a set distance. A little shift upwards or downwards isn't a problem. With a concave sensor, all of a sudden you need to get it aligned on 2 more axis.

Ok, that sounds like a good argument against.

Need me to speculate any more on the matter?

No, but feel free to . Personally, I think it's fascinating, and at least as relevant (or, productive, take your pick) as half the other ramblings I've been enjoying in this thread.

Returning to why I brought up this subject in the first place: light fall-off in the corners. As a variation on the standard design, I assume that the "gain" could be automatically adjusted on the sensor so that the corner sensor elements were more sensitive to made up for the angled light. However, I'm assuming this isn't done because the amount of gain would depend on the angle of the light, which would depend on the position of the rear lens element, which would change from lens to lens, and with focus distance (and, on a zoom lens, with focal length). Is this correct?

E.



Jan 26, 2007 at 06:30 PM
Tentacle
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p.37 #8 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Brent Ward wrote:
Exactly. But without film, there really is no reason to project a flat plane anymore if they could come up with a curved sensor. Wouldn't that also increase performance on the sedges of wide angles?


There is a HUGE reason: A curved sensor would be a nightmare of epic proportions, production wise, and thus price-wise. It will make the camera more complicated. It will make lens design more complicated. It means that the matte screen has to be curved as well. The AF sensors need to follow the same curve, can't be on a flat plane anymore. Tolerances in dimension and placement get much more stringent, calibrating will be much more of a hassle, adding more to the whole circus.

All in all, the investment will be extreme. At a fraction of the cost, you can just make better lenses, with wider diameter lens elements and wider tubes. Canon could leave the EF mount unchanged, just make a lot more room inside, and trim the inside of the lens collar, to allow for a wider light path. And do the offset or directional microlenses, and/or microdiffusors.

Unless, of course, I'm missing a few points here, which is entirely possible since I'm a bit distracted by a glass (28% lead glass, in fact) of wonderful 15 year old Armagnac.



Jan 26, 2007 at 06:32 PM
gheino
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p.37 #9 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Canon has everyone looking in the wrong direction. They leak out, or start a rumor about some new 1DsMkIII and hope we'll all make a huge wish list of features. While we keep ourselves busy....

They are working feverishly to make their new Pro model a medium format camera. They are going to introduce a huge 25-40 MegaPixel camera and a new line of lenses to compete with Hasselblad. Maybe they'll call it the C3.

It's OK to dream. Isn't it ?



Jan 26, 2007 at 06:34 PM
Tentacle
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p.37 #10 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


silverhalide wrote:
[...]

Returning to why I brought up this subject in the first place: light fall-off in the corners. As a variation on the standard design, I assume that the "gain" could be automatically adjusted on the sensor so that the corner sensor elements were more sensitive to made up for the angled light. However, I'm assuming this isn't done because the amount of gain would depend on the angle of the light, which would depend on the position of the rear lens element, which would change from lens to lens, and with focus distance (and, on a zoom lens, with focal
...Show more

This is exactly what Leica did with the M8. The new lenses have a 6-bit ID code, that's transmitted to the body. The camera then knows how vignetting needs to be compensated by post-processing.



Jan 26, 2007 at 06:38 PM
BigStuart
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p.37 #11 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Curved sensors??

Silicon wafers are flat. Digital camera sensors will always be flat.

Edit... I now see that Tentacle answered this in more depth on the previous page...



Jan 26, 2007 at 07:16 PM
gdeliz2
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p.37 #12 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Tentacle wrote:
This is exactly what Leica did with the M8. The new lenses have a 6-bit ID code, that's transmitted to the body. The camera then knows how vignetting needs to be compensated by post-processing.

All that extra processing to correct for the IR problem and the lack of AA filter is probably why the M8 can only achieve 2 frames per second on a good day. As the in-camera processors become more powerful and pixel counts level off we will probably see more lens corrections and AA filter compensation(deconvolving/advanced sharpening) being done in-camera. In the meantime, I think the growing pixel counts are eating up processor power too fast to allow novel algorithms to be incorporated into the firmware.
George Deliz



Jan 26, 2007 at 07:52 PM
Brent Ward
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p.37 #13 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Tentacle wrote:
There is a HUGE reason: A curved sensor would be a nightmare of epic proportions, production wise, and thus price-wise. It will make the camera more complicated. It will make lens design more complicated. It means that the matte screen has to be curved as well. The AF sensors need to follow the same curve, can't be on a flat plane anymore. Tolerances in dimension and placement get much more stringent, calibrating will be much more of a hassle, adding more to the whole circus.

All in all, the investment will be extreme. At a fraction of the cost, you can
...Show more

The lenses are corrected to become flat, so designing lenses to project a curved image shgouldn't be that hard.

Like I said, I was told this 2 years ago by somneone close to canon. I could care less.



Jan 26, 2007 at 08:15 PM
gpgt1998
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p.37 #14 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


I was just pondering for S&G's , an upgradable body. A new chip comes out you can have it sent in to installed. Hell you invest 8000 into a body might as well be able to upgrade your investment to last longer. Just my though out of boredom.


Jan 26, 2007 at 10:20 PM
John Wright
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p.37 #15 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


You guys going for 100 pages by PMA?


Jan 26, 2007 at 10:36 PM
Quercus
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p.37 #16 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


John Wright wrote:
You guys going for 100 pages by PMA?


It'll be 100 pages tomorrow.



Jan 26, 2007 at 11:31 PM
Jim Victory
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p.37 #17 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


I couldn't find a rumor in this mess if I wanted to.

My head is swimming with plasma TVs, curved sensors, and Canon marketing profiles. OT would be putting it mildly where this thread has gone.

Does anyone have any "Rumors" about new releases because I need to upgrade everything I own and spend excessive amounts of money for no apparent reason just to upset one of the posters in this thread.

Jim



Jan 26, 2007 at 11:49 PM
mickr7an
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p.37 #18 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


gheino wrote:
Canon has everyone looking in the wrong direction. They leak out, or start a rumor about some new 1DsMkIII and hope we'll all make a huge wish list of features. While we keep ourselves busy....

They are working feverishly to make their new Pro model a medium format camera. They are going to introduce a huge 25-40 MegaPixel camera and a new line of lenses to compete with Hasselblad. Maybe they'll call it the C3.

It's OK to dream. Isn't it ?


Believe it or not there has been a persistent rumour in China that Canon are going to release a lager than 35mm sensor camera with new lenses to match. It would be good for Canon to be their own competition at the top end rather than Mamiya and others that are starting to come close to their price range. It's probably complete nonsense though, like most rumours... except the ones that turn out to be true, of course.



Jan 27, 2007 at 12:19 AM
Hrow
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p.37 #19 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


OK, here's one for you Jim that I think everyone else has missed...

Canon is in the process of buying Nikon which itself is near gaining a controlling interest in Zeiss. The goal of the new company, to be called Cannik, is to develop a corporate entity capable of fighting back the combining forces of Sony, Panasonic and Yamaha which is merely waiting board approval from Sony. The delay is reportedly due to several of Sony's board members being injured while playing with the Wii but none of the injuries are believed to be life threatening according to Entertainment Tonight so that deal should be completed by the end of April. While Cannik will enter the fray with a clear lead in imaging technology, inside sources say that they will not tolerate the huge lead that Sonpanahaha will have in motorcycles for long. In fact, Autoweek is reporting that a new 22mp superbike will be ready for this season's MotoGP's first event at Losail, Qatar on March 10th which, not surpisingly coincides with PMA.




Jan 27, 2007 at 12:30 AM
Strid3r
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p.37 #20 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Joel Slack wrote:
Why would it bother you if other people want to and can afford to upgrade their equipment? I don't understand this rationale, yet I see it day in and day out on these fora. People want something better than what they have, for whatever reason, and if it available and they can afford it, they can certainly buy it without any justification to you or anyone else.

What kind of car do you drive? People buy 30 or 40 thousand dollar cars every day, and do they NEED this kind of vehicle for basic transportation from point A to
...Show more


Sorry I wasn't very clear. I am all for upgrading, but i just don't see the point to clinging to all of it, that's all that I meant. Technology advances and new toys are always faster and better. But why keep all the other stuff, that's what I don't really understand. Maybe I'll learn the more time I spend here...



Jan 27, 2007 at 02:03 AM
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