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Archive 2007 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread
  
 
danmitchell
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p.11 #1 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


nads: regarding your questions/claims on the 5D burst rate issue...

There is no indication that b Burst rate is not primarily is limited by card writing speed. It is a function of image sensor design - how fast the sensor offloads the data from the sensor as a result of clock rate and number of channels. This is a hardware limitation in the sensor - not a software limitation, not related to card write speed, and definitely not related to the shutter mechanism.

You might argue that the "intentional crippling" was done by choosing a sensor spec'ed at a slower clock rate and with fewer channels, but this is also a cost saving issue.

On another topic, cwphoto wrote, as others have from time to time: "It's the camera's design that makes it 'professional', not the user."

I think we simply have a difference of opinion here. To many of us it seems that if a camera can be used effectively for professional purposes then it must be a professional camera. Now, you could argue that, for example, Canon classifies some their cameras as "professional" or not based on their own feature criteria, but that could just as well be part of their marketing.

Objectively, what feature set could we identify as unequivocally being professional? In other words, could we make a list of features that all professional cameras must have and then check the list against actual cameras and see that the list made sense? For example, are all "professional" cameras sealed? (35mm, MF, LF, etc...)

A term like "professional" can mean almost whatever you want it to mean, when you come right down to it.

Take care,

Dan

Edited by danmitchell on Jan 17, 2007 at 09:45 PM GMT
Jan 18, 2007 at 12:08 AM
Mark Shaxted
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p.11 #2 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


10DFT wrote:
And it brings full-frame to a price level that many more can afford. That's significant.

I'm sorry but you're wrong. It brings FF to a price level that only a few can afford. That's significant.

The 5D, will I'm sure, in 10 years times be considered a groundbreaking camera in that it was the first step to bringing FF to the masses. But not now. At least it doesn't deserve to be. It's still very expensive. Get your priorities straight. 35mm film was accessible to many people. 35mm DSLR's are not. Not even close. Not in the global sense. Better off europeans & americans maybe. But that isn't 'many'.
Jan 18, 2007 at 12:18 AM
Mark Shaxted
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p.11 #3 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Dan... you summed it up well. Let's differentiate between marketing and usage.

Do we need a camera that is weather sealed to shoot an indoor wedding? Does that make it professional? No. Of course not. It's the results that count - ie the photographers ability.

Times are a changin'. And I think for the better. There are those that justify insanely high prices, in the name of progress. I say those prices are in the name of the share holders. I know it's not easy to seperate the two. But we must. Sometimes progress happens for the sake of progress. Sometimes it happens for the sake of shareholders. The two should not be confused.
Jan 18, 2007 at 12:27 AM
cwphoto
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p.11 #4 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


danmitchell wrote:
On another topic, cwphoto wrote, as others have from time to time: "It's the camera's design that makes it 'professional', not the user."

I think we simply have a difference of opinion here. To many of us it seems that if a camera can be used effectively for professional purposes then it must be a professional camera. Now, you could argue that, for example, Canon classifies some their cameras as "professional" or not based on their own feature criteria, but that could just as well be part of their marketing.

Objectively, what feature set could we identify as unequivocally being professional? In...Show more →

Dan, it's just a way of classifying the camera. I think too many people take personal offence that their chosen tool isn't 'professional'.

It doesn't mean that it isn't any good, or that it doesn't take great or even extraordinary pictures. It doesn't even mean that the person using the camera is a lesser or less capable photographer.

It simply means that the camera is designed for professionals with an appropriate feature-set.

The 5D is a fantastic camera and is no doubt used by pros and non-pros alike to take incredible images. But (to a lesser extent) so is the 30D and the 400D etc - do we call those cameras 'professional' too just because professionals use them or they too can take great images?

Clearly the 5D is not a professional camera - now don't take that personally.

I mean take away the lack of built-in flash and what exactly is it about the 5D that would qualify it as proffesional?

A spot-meter is the only thing that really comes close.
Jan 18, 2007 at 12:46 AM
Mark Shaxted
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p.11 #5 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


cwphoto wrote:
...
A spot-meter is the only thing that really comes close.

A focus linked point spot meter should be standard to every half decent camera, IMO.
Jan 18, 2007 at 12:53 AM
Mark Shaxted
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p.11 #6 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


And lest you all forget, this is the 21st century. such basic control shouldn't be limited to 4,500 (uk) pound cameras (sorry - using an american laptop - no uk pound sign).

My personal requirements are simple... more DR and spot linked to active focus point. Give me both of those, and I'm a very happy bunny


Jan 18, 2007 at 12:57 AM
halie
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p.11 #7 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


danmitchell wrote:
On another topic, cwphoto wrote, as others have from time to time: "It's the camera's design that makes it 'professional', not the user."

I think we simply have a difference of opinion here. To many of us it seems that if a camera can be used effectively for professional purposes then it must be a professional camera. Now, you could argue that, for example, Canon classifies some their cameras as "professional" or not based on their own feature criteria, but that could just as well be part of their marketing.

Take care,

Dan

Edited by danmitchell on Jan 17, 2007 at 09:45 PM...Show more →


You nailed it, it's all marketing. There was a study about four years ago that proved that when companies label their products "Professional," sales increase dramatically. GMC was one of the first to use that approach, promoting their pickup trucks as "Professional Grade." Once the positive results of that approach became apparent, almost every company jumped on the bandwagon. Now you can find professional versions of everything except maybe toilet paper. Actually, they may even make that also.
Jan 18, 2007 at 12:59 AM
lordcarl
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p.11 #8 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Steve Spencer wrote:
2007 PMA:
1DMKIII - at least 12 megapixel APS-H, 10 frames per second, bigger buffer, much better battery, Digic III lots of small improvements. Oooo - not honoring your pre-PMA Show 2007's NDA obligation ar?
Jan 18, 2007 at 01:02 AM
danmitchell
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p.11 #9 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


"Clearly the 5D is not a professional camera - now don't take that personally."

I disagree with the use of the word "clearly" here... unless you want to follow it with the words "in my opinion."

I don't own a 5D so I don't take it personally at all. But I still do not agree with the notion that a particular camera is not "professional" on such a narrow basis - or perhaps I simply believe that such a notion of "professional" is both virtually impossible to define and ultimately meaningless.

And now I'll let this topic go. Back to the rumors! :-)

Take care,

Dan
Jan 18, 2007 at 01:20 AM
parintele
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p.11 #10 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


guys, i spent 5 hours , all night here in europe, to read this topic....CRAZY...i bet those little japanese guys laugh tehir ass seeing how everybody is unhappy with their equipment or politics but still spend hours and hours debating and finally spend many k for the equip...

regarding all this debate i think is really simple:

NOWm canon is loosing market...how?
simple. on the entry level market, people who START photography or just want a professional looking gear instead of soapbox small cameras, canon LOOSE market....
pentax for example offers a lot more at this moment than canon..sealing, dust, bigger VF, etcetcetc....no matter lenses are fewer, a begginer is looking at the price and do not need tons of white lenses...
that lost market means the ones that start photography as a hobby are lost as let;s say pentax will upgrade their cameras too at some point and glass makes lot more than the body ...u have 2-3 glasses, u do not sell everything and move to canon.....

so canon MUST upgrade entry level equipment with features...10 mp, sealing, dust removal, VF, etcetc....
that mean they MUST upgrade ALL ofthe products above with similar stuff....is nonsense to sell 400 with let;s say, similar stuff i said before, with 700 and ask 1200 for a 30D that have nothing of that....

so , step by step, they MUST upgrade features from all their cameras ...not because other brands offer something similar for smaller price or better but because this entry level battle force them to fight and force them to fight with themselves after that....

xxxD is the starting point, it is upgraded and still is bellow at some issues to pentax for example.... the future xxxD will push xxD forward which will push xD forward, etc....

is a simple mechanism, u do not have to produce a mercedes maybach to force them to upgrade maybach....u simply upgrade a compact car and sell it cheaper....tehy will respond by upgrading their compact car...but then they would not sell medium family cars...so they will upgrade those to in order to continue selling them...and so on ...at some point, the top 2-3 type of cars will upgrade forced by own company products....
comparison with cars is not the best, in electronics and especially photo equip, where lenses are important too and lenses often mean 2-3 5 times more money invested than camera only, things are more dramatically....

so i would say the main step was made when other brands come back to the market with cheap cameras, decent for begginers, with more features and lower price....it a snow ball ment to force the leaders to be more realistic regarding whaat they offer and the price they ask for it....



and another thing: many of u talk about what nikon offers in 1500 price range , d200, compare it with xxD and what canon product is ment to compete with what nikon equipment....
i think is a little irrational to evaluate things from this perspective...

excepting the entry level, the fight betwen brands is more a matter of brand name than real copetition....
MOST of the people, like i was, start from 1000 or less range of price, glass is more important than camera most of the times....
is hard for me to believe that someone who put 700-1000 in a body and got 2-3 zooms, especially canon ahve 17-40 and 70-200 f4, great glass, maybe 2-3 primes, so 1500 or more in glass, is hard to think that he would sell EVERYTHING and go for nikon d200 just because have one or 2 features better than similar canon body....

such change comes when u reallyknow exactly what u need nad why, that mean some time spent doing photograpy, more money invested, etc....
otherways most of the people are trapped with a brand ....

this thing made canon so succesfull i think for medium level market, semipro, advanced amateurs, etc...the fact that they had a good start with entry level equip since d60, 300D...people got nice glass, good quality reasonable price and they saw canon offers more and more if u WANT more.....u can go to real pro stuff...

the same thing now...the battle is for new commers...canon NEED to hook them and that mean, as i said evolution from the bottom to the top with very few exceptions....
Jan 18, 2007 at 01:52 AM
Tentacle
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p.11 #11 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


danmitchell wrote:
nads: regarding your questions/claims on the 5D burst rate issue...

There is no indication that b Burst rate is not primarily is limited by card writing speed. It is a function of image sensor design - how fast the sensor offloads the data from the sensor as a result of clock rate and number of channels. This is a hardware limitation in the sensor - not a software limitation, not related to card write speed, and definitely not related to the shutter mechanism.

[...]

Check http://www.canon.com/technology/canon_tech/explanation/digic_slr.html

It's 2 things: The number of channels a sensor has, coupled to the sampling rate/frequency at which the front-end processing unit operates.

The big guns, both 1DII(N) and 1DsII, have 8 channel output at 16 MHz. From the white paper we know the 5D and 10/20/30D sensors have a 4 channel output. Coupled to the fps numbers, the 5D sensor has to be clocked at about 18 MHz and the 20/30D at a little more, 19 MHz or so.

The xxxD sensors all have a 2 channel output. This means that the 400D sensor clocks in pretty high, around 28 MHz. 350D would sit at 22 or 23 MHz.
Jan 18, 2007 at 02:23 AM
Yakim Peled
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p.11 #12 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


I think this is the right place to post my humble wish: AF sensors that are more spaced around the frame.

I don't need many. I have a 1D, I use the 11 AF point's option and do not feel the need for more. Than again, I'll be thrilled to see if these 11 would have more space between them.

Oh, and while we're at it, make them all like the central one: AF at f/8 and cross type.


I think it's time the 1 series gets a new AF system.


Canon, are you listening?


Jan 18, 2007 at 03:23 AM
dturina
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p.11 #13 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread



I mean take away the lack of built-in flash and what exactly is it about the 5D that would qualify it as proffesional?

A spot-meter is the only thing that really comes close.

Is Mamiya 645 AFD II a professional camera? It has miserable autofocus compared to 5d, 1.2FPS frame rate, no weather sealing, and a rather plasticky look and feel.
What about field cameras? A Linhof Master Technika has very much sub-par autofocus, frame rate and weather proofing.
The point is, not all professional photographers have the same demands. Some are quite OK with 0.5 FPS and manual focus if they're shooting a 503 'blad with a tethered digital back in a studio, others need 8FPS for a soccer game. Some need the best image quality, some need the fastest performance, some need the highest resistance to dust, sand, humidity and vibrations, some need a purely mechanical camera, and some need a good compromise. 5d is a tool of choice for a very large group of professionals - wedding and studio, for instance, while it's unlikely to be chosen for sports, wildlife and war photography. A lots of landscape/nature photographers prefer 5d because it is relatively light and easily replaces medium format film. It works in all circumstances where Mamiya 645 AFD II could be used - and is a better camera, too. Things need to be put in perspective.
Jan 18, 2007 at 05:05 AM
Yakim Peled
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p.11 #14 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Turning from a rumor thread to a philosophical one? O.K.

A pro camera is:
1. Defined as such by the manufacturer.
2. Build from the ground up to withstand the harshest and hardest conditions and still keep on shooting. That is because pro photographers need reliability at all possible conditions. That is why pro cameras are build like an armadillo / tortoise / (name your favorite armored animal.... ).

I am sure my 1D will keep on shooting in hostile environments that would drive me away much sooner.
Jan 18, 2007 at 05:40 AM
RJJR
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p.11 #15 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Yakim Peled wrote:
I am sure my 1D will keep on shooting in hostile environments that would drive me away much sooner.


Heck, my 20D can do that. But then I have my F1 for when I want to look like a "pro".





Jan 18, 2007 at 05:56 AM
dturina
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p.11 #16 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Yakim Peled wrote:
Turning from a rumor thread to a philosophical one? O.K.

A pro camera is:
1. Defined as such by the manufacturer.
2. Build from the ground up to withstand the harshest and hardest conditions and still keep on shooting. That is because pro photographers need reliability at all possible conditions. That is why pro cameras are build like an armadillo / tortoise / (name your favorite armored animal.... ).


Is Olympus E-1 a professional camera? It is defined as such by the manufacturer, and is built like a tank, certainly up to Canon 1D standards. However few professionals actually use it because it has slow autofocus, only 5MP resolution and not very good high ISO. 5d, however, has excellent resolution, excellent high ISO, very fast autofocus etc., but it is not made to withstand severe abuse. It certainly looks as well made as my EOS 3 - maybe even better. If EOS 3 is a professional camera (and it certainly was advertised as such), 5d is as well. But do have in mind that "professional use" means different things for a studio photographer and a war photographer. Me, I couldn't care less about how the manufacturer defines it, I care for what I get in the actual package. If I put it alongside EOS 3 and can't really tell which one is more "professional", then I don't really care.
Jan 18, 2007 at 06:01 AM
mickr7an
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p.11 #17 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Yakim Peled wrote:
Turning from a rumor thread to a philosophical one? O.K.

A pro camera is:
1. Defined as such by the manufacturer.
2. Build from the ground up to withstand the harshest and hardest conditions and still keep on shooting. That is because pro photographers need reliability at all possible conditions. That is why pro cameras are build like an armadillo / tortoise / (name your favorite armored animal.... ).

I am sure my 1D will keep on shooting in hostile environments that would drive me away much sooner.

I disagree with your first definition. A camera isn't a professional camera just because the manufacturer says so, and vice versa. Your second defnition is also nonsence. I know dozens of professional studio bound photographers that don't require any kind of 'withstanding' of harsh conditions, and they have some very expensive medium format and view cameras that wouldn't meet your criteria. I think you're swallowing too much marketing jargon to use as your definition for professional.
Jan 18, 2007 at 06:08 AM
Beni
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p.11 #18 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


As the one who started it:

The 5D came out at £2500 here in the UK, at that price point it should have had weather sealing and the 45 point AF. The price and positioning put it in direct comparison to the EOS 3, also not technically a pro body, but without the features. The 5D is now selling at £1500 or so. How much of that £1000 difference (remember they're still making profit at the lower price) would weather sealing and the AF cost given that £1000 buys a whole EOS 1V new, never mind just two of its features!!! The D200 has it, the £600 pentax has it for goodness sake!

I own two 5D's and shoot with them professionally. The fact that they are indoors only cameras at this time of the year given their price is maddening. Yes weather proofing wasn't an option on many pro cameras. But film cameras were far less surceptable to moisture damage than a computer with a lens attached! They were also far cheaper to replace the damaged parts. There was a thread here showing the inside of a 20D that got wet. All the curcuit boards were ruined. That is why weather proofing is far more important now than it was in the film days and why Canon leaving it out is crippling the camera to protect it's sales. A £2500 camera that you can't use reliably outdoors in the winter is crippled IMO. I've let them get wet, I have to as a pro, can't cry off the job because my camera isn't up to it, but I've cringed each time and certainly wouldn't carry it over my shoulder down the street during a medium rainfall.
Jan 18, 2007 at 06:11 AM
RikWriter
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p.11 #19 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


Mark Shaxted wrote:
I'm sorry but you're wrong. It brings FF to a price level that only a few can afford. That's significant.

The 5D, will I'm sure, in 10 years times be considered a groundbreaking camera in that it was the first step to bringing FF to the masses. But not now.

Yes, now. Sorry, but you're the one that's wrong. Most people who are into photography as a serious hobby can afford the 5D.
Jan 18, 2007 at 06:51 AM
jamesf99
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p.11 #20 · 'Un-Official' pre-PMA Rumor Thread


halie wrote:
Now you can find professional versions of everything except maybe toilet paper. Actually, they may even make that also.


LMAO! Potty humor! Sadly, I think we've all experienced toilet paper that wasn't professional. It's not pretty.



Jan 18, 2007 at 07:24 AM
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