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Archive 2006 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation

  
 
hubsand
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p.10 #1 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation


Lotusm50 wrote:
But of course a beverage can get some points out of a hundred. Parker doesn't assign points, however on an all or nothing basis. In a recent wine rating, the 1995 Krug Brut Champagne gets a score of 95, and a bottle of Korbel Brut from California gets an 86. If we applied a ranking system similar to used for these lenses, the Krug would get a 100 and the Korbel a 0, and we would be no wiser as to how close in quality these to sparkling wines are.

I would also hae to say that if you have to
...Show more

I would submit that the evaluation of wine is considerably more controversial and subjective (and therefore less amenable to a points-based scoring system) than lenses.

Robert Parker wrote:
In terms of awarding points, my scoring system gives every wine a base of 50 points. The wine's general color and appearance merit up to 5 points. The aroma and bouquet merit up to 15 points, depending on the intensity level and dimension of the aroma and bouquet as well as the cleanliness of the wine. The flavor and finish merit up to 20 points, and again, intensity of flavor, balance, cleanliness, and depth and length on the palate are all important considerations when giving out points. Finally, the overall quality level or potential for further evolution and improvement—aging—merits
...Show more

My 'system' is rather less mature than Parkers, and mainly consists of chalking up a mark for the best image. This might sound (and indeed be) crude, but with each test I'm trying to differentiate lenses: to make them behave differently in the same circumstances and expose weaknesses. What matters with this method is the size of the gap between the final numbers: the aggregate number of 'wins' and 'losses'. If there is a consistent superiority only visible at 200% (it's rare that a 300% view is helpful!), then it's fair game.

The reduction to a single number is intended to summarise baseline optical behaviour across the broadest possible range of competence: it's not necessarily a recommendation. It doesn't even make reference to build quality or convenience or handling, or even subtler characteristics of drawing styles.

In my summary, I don't dismiss or disallow the convenience of automatic control, but how many points does that fact deserve on a scale assessing image quality?

Many difficulties arise in even attempting to quantify the results: if I'd only tested for centres and corners, the Contax would have won the test outright. If I'd included the test results at all apertures at 24mm and 35mm, the Nikon would have been favoured – just as it would if I'd run a test at 28mm where the Nikon has the advantage, again. If I'd decided that flare resistance is worth more than 5 points, the Contax would have benefited. I believe – but not without grounds – that accutance, plasticity and resolution are more important than any other aspect of a lens' behaviour. Flare resistance and control of internal reflections are important, too, but in the digital environment, CA and distortion are far less meaningful: what you can fix doesn't matter as much. Colour falls somewhere in the middle: get a well exposed picture into 16-bit ProPhoto colour space and you can pretty much achieve whatever colour you want, though it helps to have a head start.

If I tested a Leica 28mm Elmarit against a 28mm Distagon and a Nikon 28mm f2.8 AIS using this method, the Leica would win. The Zeiss would probably be very slightly better centre frame f8-f11, but the Leica would be better across the frame at f2.8-f5.6. The Nikon would be better than the Zeiss from f2.8-f4, and have less distortion, but couldn't compete for resolution at f8. The Leica would rack up lots of little victories; the Nikon and Zeiss squabbling for second and third place, and the Leica would emerge with a clear lead once the points are tallied. The points would fairly reflect the reality: the Elmarit is a better lens.

And if you can't afford one, is the Zeiss better than the Nikon? According to the test, they're both second class (fair enough). Their scores would be very close . . . the best lens for you would depend on how you prioritise wide and small aperture performance, distortion, or flare resistance. The points system would give you a fair picture of the lenses' competence across the broadest possible range.

In the summary, I don't claim that the Nikon is better than the Contax at 17mm. What I say is that, for resolution, accutance and plasticity, it's impossible to pick a winner: it depends where in the frame you look. When we take into account CA and flare resistance, the Contax is better at 17mm, but by any measure 21mm is a stalemate, and from 24mm up, even the 16-35L is an improvement.

It's hard to support the idea that the Contax has 'better' colour than the Nikon. It is warmer, which which gives more weight to the many yellow and green areas in the test target (note to self: include more red and blue), but when you look at a section of the image with a different palette, we don't see the Contax producing a richer spectrum of hues than the Nikon in the same way that, for instance, the best Leica lenses do:
http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/cz17_35/v_nikon1735/contax_nikon_17_35e.html

I'm open to reconsider the verdict of each individual comparison: each of which impacts the final score. If I've called a decision badly according to the majority of informed opinion, I'll change it. If you agree with each pair verdict, though, you inevitably support the final score as a measure of broad-range competence.

The most competent lens, on average, may not be the right one for you. The Helios 85/1.5 would score terribly by this system, but it's still a great tool for certain tasks. That's why your review of the pictures, and even my conclusion, are more important than the final number.



Jan 23, 2007 at 06:21 PM
hubsand
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p.10 #2 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation


Wow! I'm deeply flattered . . . not necessarily in a healthy way. Thank you.

Lots more tests coming: the ZF25 arrived today while I was out on location . . .



Jan 23, 2007 at 06:26 PM
eronald
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p.10 #3 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation


My way of testing lenses is to take a model in a cluttered background, and make a few shots. Believe me, the differences between "equivalent" lenses can floor you. I'm not going to defend it as scientific technique, but I apply the same test to wine: I just drink a bottle

Edmund



Jan 24, 2007 at 08:52 AM
tom in mpls
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p.10 #4 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation


eronald wrote:
My way of testing lenses is to take a model in a cluttered background, and make a few shots. Believe me, the differences between "equivalent" lenses can floor you. I'm not going to defend it as scientific technique, but I apply the same test to wine: I just drink a bottle

Edmund


After you drink the bottle, don't all the lenses look good?



Jan 24, 2007 at 09:09 AM
Lotusm50
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p.10 #5 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation


eronald wrote:
Believe me, the differences between "equivalent" lenses can floor you.


Quite true and these differences change depending on the situation and subject. There are too many variables to make broad conclusions based on subjective and somewhat arbitrary assessments of a backyard snapshot. There are reasons why professional testing take a more scientific approach precisely because it is impossible to control all the variables. Actual quantitative measures actually give you an idea of how how competing lenses actually compare. And wine testing, since the point of it was missed, is all about understanding relative quality differences between wines. And contrary to common perceptions, when professionally done it is a lot less subjective than you think. Testing for your own use should essentially be done as Edmund does, use the lens as you intend to use it and make an assessment in that use. I'm not saying that the backyard snapshot approach to testing does not provide some insights -- it does, but it is, at best, problematic. Ordinal pseudo-quantitative binary point systems used to give the impression of technical rigour just compound the problem. Real rigour in these matters is employed for a reason. So-called "real word" tests in backyards merely toss out the control of variables and the scientific objectivity that provide these tests their reliability.

Of course, you are all allowed to follow whatever lens muse you wish.

Additional illustrative sample images produced in multiple situations will be produced once my 17-35 lenses arrive.



Jan 24, 2007 at 10:30 AM
brainiac
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p.10 #6 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation


> After you drink the bottle, don't all the lenses look good?

None focusses, but each still has a distinctive bo[u][kq][u]e[ht].



Jan 24, 2007 at 11:48 AM
jrn813
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p.10 #7 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation


Well, I Will Be Able To Give A Contax N 17-35mm f2.8 My Own Style Of Testing... Mine Just Arrived !

First Impression Out Of The Box And On My 1Ds .... WoW

Fit And Function Are Wonderful... Size is Imressive On The Camera...
A Few Nothing Test Shots To Check Focus, Appeture, And Speed Are Great...

I Appreciate All Of Mark's Efforts, And The Nikon May Be A Wonderful Lens,
But On A Canon Body, AF & AE Are The Deciding Factor For Me....
I Have Seen All The Tests, Used A Nikon (I Own) With Stopped Down Metering,
And I Now Have Another Lens (N 17-35mm & Canon 200mm f1.8) They Can Pry From My Cold Dead Hands When I Die...

Thanks Again, Mark..
For All Your Efforts & The Lens...

John R



Jan 24, 2007 at 01:42 PM
jrn813
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p.10 #8 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation


Cyberstudio,
On Your Web Site You Have A List Of Cameras That You Have Tested With Your Converted Lenses...
The 1V On That List Has No Indication Of Compatibility & One That Is Not There, The D30..
I Have Now Tested My 17-35mm With All The Cameras In My Signature...
Still WoW ... From Me!



Jan 24, 2007 at 10:30 PM
eronald
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p.10 #9 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation


Lotusm50 wrote:
Quite true and these differences change depending on the situation and subject. There are too many variables to make broad conclusions based on subjective and somewhat arbitrary assessments of a backyard snapshot. There are reasons why professional testing take a more scientific approach precisely because it is impossible to control all the variables. Actual quantitative measures actually give you an idea of how how competing lenses actually compare. And wine testing, since the point of it was missed, is all about understanding relative quality differences between wines. And contrary to common perceptions, when professionally done it is a lot less
...Show more

As a scientist, I understand the value of repeatable tests very well. It's just that one can get so obsessed with them that some essential quality gets discarded or neglected. Which is why I think both approaches are necessary, mostly.

In some cases, eg Leica M lenses, the lenses are known to deliver the best possible numerical values in their class, which is why it makes sense to head straight for the "dégustation".

Edmund



Jan 25, 2007 at 01:00 PM
cyberstudio
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p.10 #10 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation


jrn813 wrote:
Cyberstudio,
On Your Web Site You Have A List Of Cameras That You Have Tested With Your Converted Lenses...
The 1V On That List Has No Indication Of Compatibility & One That Is Not There, The D30..
I Have Now Tested My 17-35mm With All The Cameras In My Signature...
Still WoW ... From Me!


I am very happy that you are very happy - thanks for the report and I have updated my compatibility matrix!



Jan 25, 2007 at 04:21 PM
hubsand
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p.10 #11 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation


Lotusm50 wrote:
. . . these differences change depending on the situation and subject. There are too many variables to make broad conclusions based on subjective and somewhat arbitrary assessments of a backyard snapshot. There are reasons why professional testing take a more scientific approach precisely because it is impossible to control all the variables. Actual quantitative measures actually give you an idea of how how competing lenses actually compare . . . Testing for your own use should essentially be done as Edmund does, use the lens as you intend to use it and make an assessment in that use. I'm
...Show more

eronald wrote:
As a scientist, I understand the value of repeatable tests very well. It's just that one can get so obsessed with them that some essential quality gets discarded or neglected. Which is why I think both approaches are necessary, mostly.

If we consider 'science' in its broadest sense to be the search for, and demonstration of, truths, the 16:9 tests generally qualify as scientific. They also conform to 'scientific method' in that they first theorise, then rigorously test a hyopthesis without bias in such a way that the results are universally repeatable.

A scientific evaluation demands an universally applicable scale of reference. We have at least two for resolution: see photozone and photodo for details. However, what is the scale for accutance? Or plasticity?

On several occasions the tests have sniffily been dismissed as amateur backyard tinkering; however, I shoot houses for a living – so my preferred test target is a house. QED.

Perhaps it is felt that the choice of target isn't sufficiently revealing, or doesn't test a broad enough range of behaviour? I would point to the location of branches against an overcast sky in the top right corner of the frame: worst case subjects for lateral CA. The test subject contains gridlike verticals and horizontals which reveal distortion problems. The central part of the frame consists of a finely detailed plants and masonry which is perfectly parallel to the focal plane, revealing resolution bumps and aberrations in field curvature. The mesh in the satellite dish is effective at demonstrating 'sharpness' in the outer image circle. The near field is uniformly filled with high-frequency information in the form of grass.

Most importantly, it is a 3D test scene which reveals differences in plasticity.

I started out testing lenses with USAF charts and the like, but quickly found the system less than helpful. Most lenses tested looked very similar. I don't shoot 2D monochrome objects in real life: so the tests never told me what I wanted to know. Expanding this idea, I've added extra scenes to depict in exacting real world scenarios the effects of flare and distortion which aren't really addressed by the test scene. I'm confident that no real world application (bar the extreme macro range) will stretch the lenses as far.

If you pause for thought (or examine the size of the RAW files) it's easy to see that there is much more information in an image of garden than there is in a chart. We know what it looks like in the flesh, and are therefore much better attuned to the rightness of its representation by the camera. Crucial to this is the fact that the best lenses convey a realistic sense of space: the assessment of which vital property has no objective scale or measure. Here we are back with Parker!

Actually, it would be relatively straightforward to implement a percentile rating: maybe marks out of 21 for resolution, 21 for accutance (these split three way: centre frame, 14mm and 28mm out), 20 for plasticity, 10 for flare resistance and ghosting, 10 for colour, 10 for distortion, 8 for CA . . . a lens could be penalised for vignetting. And you'd have to score at each aperture, giving an averaged figure for each focal length. The exact splits would naturally be controversial, not to mention the fact that rating colour and plasticity would be subjective. An agreed 'maximum marks benchmark' would have to be specified: resolving to sensor limits, zero CA, zero distortion and zero flare are evidently rateable, but we'd have to specify that '7 for accutance means the way a Zeiss 85/1.2 looks at f4 centre frame' or some such.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. However mundane the test target appears to be, it has revealed differences between lenses that have gone unnoticed by many other testers. It has proven the merit of the Nikon 17-35mm contrary to all expectations. It shows clearly and precisely why the Distagon 21mm is so unique. It revealed long end decentering in a 16-35L supplied directly by Canon's service department. It revealed the mid-frame resolution dip predicted by the Contax 17-35mm's MTF chart. It revealed the curious centre frame dimple at apertures wider than f5.6 in the Canon 24L. It revealed clear differences between Nikon and Contax adaptors, . . . it works.

The proof of the lens in also in the seeing. We've all commented on the way photodo's 'scientific' testing procedures do not always correspond with the results we see in RL. Ultimately, we don't examine, or derive pleasure from, images by using a densitometer or a microscope: our eyes are the final – and only meaningful – arbiter. You might buy a lens on the strength of a numerical evaluation of some kind, but you only keep it if it makes beautiful pictures.

With proper attention to detail, you can see the universe in grain of sand.



Jan 25, 2007 at 06:39 PM
Lotusm50
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p.10 #12 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation


hubsand wrote:
If we consider 'science' in its broadest sense to be the search for, and demonstration of, truths, the 16:9 tests generally qualify as scientific...


Oh, never mind. The points are missed. You're going to steadfastly defend your backyard tests. The web site and the universal value of its pseudo-science must be defended.

One wonders why all those engineers and scientists at Carl Zeiss, Leica, Canon, Nikon, Schneider, and Rodenstock bother will all their thousands of hours of detailed testing, and millions of dollars of precise, high-tech equipment to understand they way their lenses will perform, when a simple series of backyard snaps will suffice -- nay, is fact better. Why indeed. What are all these people and these companies with hundreds of years of accumulated experience and state-of-the-art technology thinking! Their shareholders should revolt at all the money they are wasting. And what about all those publications that try to carefully measure and map the performance of these lenses in meaningful comparisions. What a waste of time. Backyard snaps -- an uncontrolled glimpse into just one usage situation -- tells you all you need to know.

It seems the entire industry has gone down the wrong path for decades. Foolish engineers, scientists and managers creating ever increasing amounts of charts and measurements. But we have now been told. You can all go home and find new work. The best lenses are those that look good in backyard snaps which provide all we need to know to make an intelligent decisions -- expertise, precision, careful measurement under various controlled conditions be damned, they don't mean anything. What did we do before all the internet experts popped up? Oh yeah, we relied on science and technical expertise.

Science is dead. Long live the internet, where...

I should probably stop there. Just never mind. It's not worth the effort.



Jan 25, 2007 at 11:49 PM
Andi Dietrich
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p.10 #13 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation


Hubsands tests reflect the published data sheet from Zeiss very well. I would not call the tests scientific, it is a translation in the language we all use and understand.

I can not see the problem, is it brand over matter?

I believe we should welcome Marks review as they are and think off them in a positive way.
If we are speaking about the conversion we must see that Conurus will need to convince Contax N users to buy a Canon camera and convert the lenses to the EOS mount. He will not be able to life from the few addicts who buy a Zeiss lens on the bay to get it converted, just too few lenses around

Edited by bathman on Jan 26, 2007 at 09:15 AM GMT (Reason: )



Jan 26, 2007 at 02:22 AM
hubsand
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p.10 #14 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation


Your points were not missed, I think. 16:9's tests, regardless of the target choices, which seem to be an insurmountable obstacle for you, are not from the viewpoint of a lens designer. We aren't qualified to judge them on that basis. But we are qualified as photographers to judge them as photographic tools, using relevant scales of reference, within parameters set by the camera.

While I sympathise with the view commonly held by grumpy folk of a certain age, before the internet there were no comparisons of this kind. We knew nothing about the relative abilities of lenses: we had hearsay, uninformed brand loyalty, sporadic user experience (rarely on a level playing field) and the occasional magazine review which was never subjected to peer review. Hardly scientific.

The real world is grainier and more information-rich than any contrived lab situation, which is why field testing still occupies a vital role in Zeiss, Leica et al's development cycle. Omitting it would be like building a state of the art racing car and never taking it on track: where it gets the most demanding, system-wide, synergistic, holistic and pragmatic test. The medical analogy works just as well.

I guess you've no way of knowing whether the tests are conducted in a rigorous enough manner to be reliable as a guide to (not the last word in) performance. I would point to the results which reveal fine differences and are consistent, repeatable – a good sign. I'm always looking for ways to make the tests more useful, and remain receptive to constructive suggestions . . . .



Jan 26, 2007 at 03:27 AM
shirozina
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p.10 #15 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation


Glad I stayed out of this one.....
I test my own lenses in a similar way to Hubsand - I don't trust Canon, Zeiss's etc to tell me which lenses perform well in the real world shooting situations that I will encounter despite their accumulated and overwhelming experience and scientific knowledge. They are NOT in the business of impartial scientific evaluation of optical devices - they ARE in the business of selling units and any data they publish should be viewed with this in mind.



Jan 26, 2007 at 04:50 AM
yas887
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p.10 #16 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation


I have always found Hubsand's review to be the among the best there is. Is it perfect? Of course not, but it is far better than most reviews out there. At least he backs up his findings with actual crops of photography which is more than can be said for some of his critics. Also he doesn't come off as a 'fanboy' of any brand. He keeps his comments to lenses he have actually owned which again is not the case for everyone here.

Keep up the good work.



Jan 26, 2007 at 12:45 PM
hubsand
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p.10 #17 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation


I've just been playing with DXO version 4 and some of the Nikon 17-35 files: though there isn't a specific module for the lens, the out-of-the-box settings really lift the images even closer to CZ21 status. Which got me thinking . . .

If I still had my Contax N 17-35mm, I'd follow DXO's example and create a set of sharpening actions that target the mid-frame resolution dip. In the 17-21mm range, the results would be outstanding.



Jan 26, 2007 at 04:12 PM
brainiac
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p.10 #18 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation


hubsand's tests are the most scientific demonstration of what these lenses do that i have yet found. i kept my zeiss 18 from the old film days, but returned a nikon 17-35 because i hated the camera i bought with it (D1). it was a big surprise to me when hubsand demonstrated that the nikon is a superior lens optically at 18mm. i tested a bashed up old 17-35 against my 18 and guess what. my results closely matched hubsand's. people are free to do their own tests and where they conflict with hubsand's results they are free to publish.

but what's the point in criticising hubsand's generous and careful demonstrations of lens performance without providing a link to a superior alternative? if there is one?

for my purposes the garden shot would tell me a little more if there was someone standing a few feet away, but you can't have everything. every time i have tried to verify hubsand's results on equivalent gear i have found them to be pretty repeatable.



Jan 26, 2007 at 04:24 PM
hubsand
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p.10 #19 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation


Thanks brainiac: I was thinking only today that a near and flat field test would be a useful addition to future reviews. Against the grain, I've even started to shoot the occasional brick wall at 1m range.

There is a heartening consensus in these matters: 90% of the correspondence I get from people who do their own tests completely shares the joy. Frequently, though, a test offends someone's brand loyalty and the poison pen letters arrive, but once they start doing their own research, I never hear from them again: the results are so plainly evident. I'm not courting controversy.

I would be pretty shocked if people start pulling razor sharp 'Area B' samples from a Contax 17-35 at the wide end, 'cos that would mean that mine was a duff sample. It's a great lens, but it isn't perfect.



Jan 26, 2007 at 04:55 PM
belsha
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p.10 #20 · Contax N 17-35mm Evaluation


In my opinion 16:9 is by far the best lens test site on the web. Period. If you want the MTF's, you can go the lens company's web page.

Now one could indeed critize the rating system. In the 17-35 Contax vs Nikon test, it is true that the better shot at one focal range/aperture is always rewarded with a 1 point advantage, regardless if it's superiority is enormous (for exemple Contax Nikon 17mm wide open edge performance vs Contax ), quite substantial (generally speaking Contax mid frame (region "B", I think) vs Nikon) or barely visible or totally invisible to me (for exemple 35mm f5.6 center performance, but there are many more). At times, the ratings seem totally counterintuitive to me: at 24mm f5.6, the Canon L clearly looks A LOT sharper to me than the Contax, but gets a 0 vs 1 for Contax....

Hubsand only started to give numerical ratings with his 24mm World Cup: and we all agree, the football (soccer) analogy was fun (Zuiko indeed sounds like a Brazilian forward's name..., and Zeiss does look Argentinian), so why spoil the pleasure...Maybe he should have left it at that.

But who cares? Who cares about final scores and ratings? We have photodo and photozone and what for that. What they don't offer, are real life shots that still aren't completley subjective and haphazard, that are conducted with a rigorous and controlled method.

What hubsand's tests teach us—at least what they taught me— is that there isn't a "best" lens (except maybe the CZ 21mm, but some still can't take the moustache distortion), there is no absolute winner you could quantify by a final score. Each has it's edge, it's drawbacks. Most revealing for me was the 18mm Oly/Zeiss test: Distagon is much sharper than the competition in the center, but Oly is more even across the frame. What is better? That isn't the question. What do you need! What suits your style, your assignements, your priorities! Maybe you even are AF-addicted and you'll take those wobbly Canon L corners and mediocre centers! It's up to you, but hubsand shows you what the choices are and why you should make them.

I think that the 17-35 test is very similar. It's not about what would be the ultimate lens in an ideal, platonic world. It's about what is most important to you and what these lenses are able to deliver. You can see it in these very methodic and accurate shots, and I guess only people that can't form their own opinion need to rely on final scores, would they be fair or not, to make up their minds.



Jan 26, 2007 at 05:18 PM
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