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Archive 2006 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

brainiac
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p.85 #1 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

Richard, I did calibrate mine and if you haven't you should, i think you'll be even happier with the camera, it sorted some nasty red issues for me making the files much easier to work with.

Thanks for the advice. I am sure you are right, and Pondria has made a great case for it. I still have to shoot JPEG for work though so its not really relevant. Play is another matter. Pondria - it's a long way back: could you remind me where to get info on calibration? Thanks guys.

Jan 05, 2007 at 02:54 PM

pdmphoto
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p.85 #2 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

brainiac wrote:
[That's not my experience with the 5D. The AA filter removes acutance evenly all over the frame. That's the 'smear' or softness that people mention. A 150/1/0 unsharp mask, when required, doesn't seem to cause any problems, even with camera JPEGs. It compensates for the AA filter evenly all over the frame. There isn't much moir� to woir� about.

Edited by brainiac on Jan 05, 2007 at 07:24 PM GMT

The AA filter does affect acutance evenly across the frame if the whole frame has the same detail. But when you throw in different lpm, colors, contrasting edges, then the AA filter has different effects on the acutance based on the variables. Some edges can good very good, but other can look mushy. Some things like grass at a certain distance with a certain contrast often turn to mush.

Jan 05, 2007 at 02:56 PM

pdmphoto
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p.85 #3 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

Pondria wrote:
Richard,
OK, let's talk about Red and about Compress/shift of tones and hues and about contrast.
Please, just take a look at the two shots below. I think the diff between them is a lot greater than the diff between the shots from different cameras in Tom's experiment.
http://www.sesee.com/Photo/Exports/YZ5P1587-old.jpg
http://www.sesee.com/Photo/Galleries/Madras/YZ5P1587.jpg

The first one is what you would get from ACR by using the Default setting. The second one is after the calibration. What's surpring to me is that the 2nd one not only retains the fine mid tones but also looks simply more detailed resolution-wise. One can make a lot of assessments on...Show more →

But look what it did to the green (the small tree in the background)! YUK!!!

Jan 05, 2007 at 02:59 PM

DaveEP
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p.85 #4 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

Before I fire my lovely new toy, would I be right in assuming there should be no problem using Pocket Wizards on the M8 ?

Jan 05, 2007 at 07:31 PM

gdeliz2
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p.85 #5 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

bill vann wrote:
Tom, thanks for the comparison test i enjoyed it.

i'm throwing in the towel on comparisons. there have been many valuable points made but way too much

"my mind is made up don't confuse me with facts"

I see a critical issue with the aa filters. people avoid the AA filter issue like the plague, or confuse/dilute it with Nyquist frequency baloney suggesting it is only evident at x lpm. the aa filter is only effective at high frequencies so it doesn't really matter?

duh what is the spatial frequency of the separation of an absolute black adjoining and absolute white.

also George...Show more →

I did not claim that your test was invalid. I said "Any such test that is performed without double blind protocols is basically worthless. " I did assume that it was most likely that your test was not double blind as most people would not want to go to the trouble, but if it were I also assumed you would correct me.
I could also have said however, that any such test in order to be valid would have to be set up carefully so that there were no differences between the comparison prints except for the camera with which they were made. If you think about it that's actually a pretty tall order.
In audio comparisons, for example, one component can be made to sound better than another simply by boosting the volume of the first by an almost imperceptable amount(1 to 2 db). The one that is slightly louder will be chosen as the better sounding by most people (many salesman who want to move a particular item know this liitte trick).
I agree that this is interesting stuff to read.

George Deliz

Jan 05, 2007 at 09:20 PM

ClubShooter
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p.85 #6 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

pdmphoto wrote:
5D, M8, 5D sharpened

The sharpened 5D image looks exeedingly hard and high contrast. The lighter detail for instance all looks blown out. Try to produce something that is both detailed and looks smooth at the same time. The M8 image with just a touch of smart sharpen using the lens blur filter will do that, because the softness in it is caused by a lens with a very gaussian rendition, which the camera faithfully recorded. Canon images just look ugly when sharpened.

Jan 06, 2007 at 04:09 AM

fotografur
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p.85 #7 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

ClubShooter wrote:
.... Canon images just look ugly when sharpened.

I'm sorry but I can't agree with that generalization. I've seen some beautiful Canon images. Not saying the M8 images are not just as good but really :0)

d~

Jan 06, 2007 at 05:58 AM

carstenw
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p.85 #8 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

Jan 06, 2007 at 02:50 PM

DaveEP
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p.85 #9 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

ClubShooter wrote:
.... Canon images just look ugly when sharpened.

fotografur wrote:
I'm sorry but I can't agree with that generalization. I've seen some beautiful Canon images. Not saying the M8 images are not just as good but really :0)
d~

I agree with fotografur here, I have Canon bodies, and they are no different to any other bodies in that they take a certain way of sharpening to make them stand out. That sharpening style 'may' be different from Nikon, Leica, Phase 1 or any other brand you care to mention.... It is 'possible' (even easy) to apply sharpening that can make them look ugly, but that is not what most people do.

I now have a Leica M8 of my own to play with. I have to say I am very pleased with it. However, having said that, I see nothing here that will make me instantly want to sell my 1Ds2. On the contrary, I see many things that the 1Ds2 does better than the M8, i.e. telephoto and high ISO, but it's not a good walkabout camera by any stretch of the imagination. They are just so differrent, and I will use them for totally different tasks. I don't see the need (at least for me) to justify one being better than another. They both do a great job, but they get there in different ways.....

Jan 06, 2007 at 04:21 PM

ClubShooter
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p.85 #10 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

Sure, but the thread is about hands-on experiences with the M8. Who gives a crap about Canon?!

Jan 06, 2007 at 10:36 PM

Harvey Moore
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p.85 #11 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

Canon images just look ugly when sharpened
Who gives a crap about Canon?!

Spoken with arrogance, Style Points Clubshooter -10

Benchmarking the M8 & 5D has been of more than casual interest in this thread.

Jan 06, 2007 at 11:24 PM

DaveEP
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p.85 #12 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

ClubShooter wrote:
Sure, but the thread is about hands-on experiences with the M8. Who gives a crap about Canon?!

Actually - a lot of people do. I don't see anything in the M8 manual that says if you buy an M8 you can only have Leica kit, and specifically NO CANON kit from here on ....

I still like my Canon kit, and while I am more and more tempted by a DMR, I WILL wait until they replace it with something designed from the ground up to be digital. I don't like the size/shape of the DMR as it stands.

You are of course right that this is a "hands on M8" thread, and now I have my "hands on" one of my own, I can comment more fully (which I will do in time). However, given the amount of too and frowing going on between M8 and 5D users, I am still of the opinion that they are not comparable in terms of what you do with them.

If your shooting style is firmly in "5D land", then don't try to make the M8 your "only" tool. If on the other hand your shooting style, or requirments can benefit from an M8, then it is simply a wonderful tool to use. I don't see why Leica and Canon have to be mutually exclusive (funds permitting), and in my mind are complimentary, not competitors.

Jan 07, 2007 at 05:19 AM

Pondria
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p.85 #13 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

pdmphoto wrote:
But look what it did to the green (the small tree in the background)! YUK!!!

Whether you like it or not, that "YUK green" is what was there. It should not be the raw converter's job to make sh*** look like gold nugget.

Jan 07, 2007 at 01:25 PM

Guest

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p.85 #14 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

Whether you like it or not, that "YUK green" is what was there.

I'm not so sure... It appears to my eye the greens in the first image are significantly better than those in the second, having more tonal separation and better saturation. This in turn indicates that better greens were there to begin with and your custom profile is perhaps not all that good; it improved the reds at the expense of the greens.

A good camera profile will have accurate color along with well-balanced saturation across the colors. Maybe you should try using the "long" method of creating a camera profile you linked to instead of your spreadsheet short-cut method and then add that version for us to compare?

Cheers,

Jan 07, 2007 at 01:58 PM

Pondria
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p.85 #15 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

Jack Flesher wrote:
I'm not so sure... It appears to my eye the greens in the first image are significantly better than those in the second, having more tonal separation and better saturation. This in turn indicates that better greens were there to begin with and your custom profile is perhaps not all that good; it improved the reds at the expense of the greens.

A good camera profile will have accurate color along with well-balanced saturation across the colors. Maybe you should try using the "long" method of creating a camera profile you linked to instead of your spreadsheet short-cut method...Show more →

I cannot argue which green looks better to your eyes

The first image below is the simulated Macbeth chart - digital standard that Macbeth chart photo from any camera should look like after the WB correction. And the numbers are RGB values in ProPhoto RGB space.
The second one is my real shot after the calibration. The numbers in Green patches are actual read of the numbers in ProPhoto RGB space. I don't think my Greens are off that much. And I think I have pretty good matches across the map

http://www.sesee.com/Photo/Exports/Macbeth_ProPhoto.jpg

Jan 07, 2007 at 02:51 PM

gogopix
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p.85 #16 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

most greens in nature are more olive colored than most people realize. The "YUK" green (is that a technical term?? :-) is likely closer to the real color than the bright green. The peak of solar light is near the sodium yellow lines and the greens in chlorophyll like;y are tuned to that yellow green. Mix in a little 'extra red' and I believe yuk is the result.
So I assume part perception part sensors' extra red.

(note that sensors have close to the solar fallofrf in red and blue, peaking at the green, but not 'forst green' if you allow mixed metaphor.)

Pondria's color chart seems pretty close.

regards
Victor

Jan 07, 2007 at 03:08 PM

KJbruin
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p.85 #17 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

DaveEP wrote:
Actually - a lot of people do. I don't see anything in the M8 manual that says if you buy an M8 you can only have Leica kit, and specifically NO CANON kit from here on ....

I still like my Canon kit, and while I am more and more tempted by a DMR, I WILL wait until they replace it with something designed from the ground up to be digital. I don't like the size/shape of the DMR as it stands.

You are of course right that this is a "hands on M8" thread, and now I have my "hands...Show more →

I am also of the opinion that this thread has gotten completely off track and become almost combative with some valuable contributors (those that own the M8 and post comments from their experience with using the camera) have been literaly chased off as a result. Perhaps eventually the thread will get back on track to what I believe was the original intent to be a "hands on" Leica M8 discussion.

Jan 07, 2007 at 03:13 PM

carstenw
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p.85 #18 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

Okay, I have the 5D and M8 for a very short period of time, about one week. I want to test them, more for fun than anything else, and mostly to satisfy myself that they are similar in image quality, not to see that one is better than the other. I will try to make a series of different tests, but today I only managed two, one of which I will post today, and the other one of which I will try to post in the next days, although I have a lot to do at the moment, so I don't know when I will have time, since this second test will take some more thought.

First, Here is the standard bookshelf test, in each case, Canon first and Leica second. Both shots were taken at ISO 160, both at f/5.6, the M8 with the 50 Lux Asph, the 5D with the 80 Lux, mirror lock-up, stable tripod, self-timer. I moved the camera back and forth to get roughly the same view. I shot many shots at different focus distances, and chose the sharpest one in each case. Since my M8 needs the focus mechanism adjusted, the two pictures are focused in slightly different places, because it was essentially impossible to focus correctly. Since I am not looking for minor differences, I neglected this. I used C1LE to develop, and just did a white-balance on the same area of the same book, and an auto-exposure. Sharpness was turned completely off, and I used the built-in profiles. I am not paying attention to the colour, due to the M8's known issues, as well as the fact that I don't yet have an IR filter. Here are the whole pictures, followed by two separate crops, of the same areas. I did not resize them to some arbitrary size, because we are viewing the pixels on-screen at about 100 dpi, whereas they will print at 240/300 dpi, so all minor differences will disappear. I am just looking for major differences here, but don't see any.

Comments and criticism are more than welcome, but keep in mind that this is just a high-level test to see if the resolution is roughly the same, which it is. The 5D has a slight edge due to higher resolution, but the minor differences will disappear in print.

http://www.realityblur.com/photography/m8/_MG_8993.jpg
http://www.realityblur.com/photography/m8/L1010075.jpg

http://www.realityblur.com/photography/m8/_MG_8993c.jpg
http://www.realityblur.com/photography/m8/L1010075c.jpg

http://www.realityblur.com/photography/m8/_MG_8993c-2.jpg
http://www.realityblur.com/photography/m8/L1010075c-2.jpg

Jan 07, 2007 at 04:20 PM

DaveEP
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p.85 #19 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

I have a question to those performing tests.....

Why do people feel the need to match the ISO settings?

Feel free to disagree here, but wouldn't you want to test with the ISO setting that you would "normally choose" for "that shot" with "that camera"? For the M8, ISO160 is the lowest, but why would you "normally" chose ISO 160 on the 5D? My guess is that you would 'normally' choose ISO 100 unless there were other overriding factors.... so that is where the comparisons should be made..... shouldn't they

Otherwise, aren't we artificially changing the shots from one of the cameras?

Personally, I am not bothered about whether the Canon is better than the Leica, or visa versa, because I have grown too tired of "walking about" with a large DSLR anyway. But it just seems to me that for those who 'are' interested enough to test, they should be trying to maximize the quality from"both" as best they can, unless of course they are trying to prove a point one way or another....

Yesterday, I went walkabout with the M8. I had the camera over my shoulder or around my neck the entire time. I took two other lenses, one in each coat pocket! With my Canon systems, I would have needed to take a bag to carry the lenses in, and my neck would have been killing me if I tried to carry the body around my neck for that long without actually 'holding' the camera in my hand as well. What is more, it appeared that the the M8 was almost invisible to most people, and no one gave me OR my camera a second look. Almost no one even gave it a 'first' look. That has never been my experience with Canon.

This is not knocking Canon in any way, but the M8 is serving it's purpose very well, as a small and seemingly almost invisible walkabout solution.

Jan 07, 2007 at 04:58 PM

belsha
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p.85 #20 · �Hands-On� Leica M8

Carsten, focus is too inconsistent on those crops for them to be meaningful. On the first crop, the Canon definitively is sharper, whereas on the second one the Leica is. This is either due to field curvature, or to different focus points. But in any case, it has nothing to do with the inherent quality of the camera/sensor. Maybe this is a good thing: that way, the quarelling will stop, since both the Canon and the Leica crowd will have their sample to prove their superiority!

Jan 07, 2007 at 05:27 PM

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