The 20D's replacement would still be useless to me without an equivelent of the 17-55AFS. I almost went over to Nikon for the D200 over the 5D, it's a better camera for everything but FF (for my needs), I don't shoot over iso 500 and the resolution of the 1Ds was all I needed.
The reason I stayed was the 24-105L lens, I wanted the IS in a pro lens with the 24-70 range. (not sure if I will regret that, the lens isn't everything its cracked up to be) Even a sucessor to the 20D wouldn't interest me as there is no lens to cover that range that is at least a constant f4. The 17-40L is just too short.
If Canon drastically drop the price of the 5D then many 5D owners will be pissed. If however the price remains stable until mid February then I will have long worked off any difference in price. I can't see the 20D's replacement being announced until before PMA, Canon isn't that desperate...
The 5D is a damn good camera but a wider spacing of AF points and weather proofing would have been most welcome.
nads wrote:
If Canon released a body with exactly the same specs as the D200 it wouldn't step on the 5D. That leaves pleanty of room for the release of a 20d upgrade to compete with the D200.
Adding a spot meter, weather sealing and a couple of megapixels to the 20d would put it right in line with the D200. It can conceivably be done for a market price under that of the d200 as well.
Time will tell, but I doubt we'll see much of a swing in market share for either company any time soon... certainly not before the world finds out what Canon's next move is.
The D200 doesn't represent any type of technology that Canon is not capable of producing. Unless Nikon can demonstrate the ability to do something that Canon can't even do, we're not going to see any swings.
That being said, the D200 looks like a heck of a tool that will make a lot of D50 or D70 users very happy....Show more →
you hit the nail on the head , Canon Could and Should have made something similiar to the D200 Years ago! The absense of a spot meter is stupid and you have to get a 1 series to have this if you shoot canon. Understanding that folks are shooting an exponential increase over what they would if they shot film , so why not make a whole new shutter which is the main thing that is breaking on these slr's? Nikon started this new shuuter with the D2h and refined it further with the X and now redisigned the one in the D200 based on the stuff they learned with the H and X. This is the kind of trickle down we need to all be applauding. Nikon did it first here with a very full featured mid level rig, you can bet that canon's next offering will not be th trickle of features from the D60, 10D , 20D lineage, and that my friend is good for everybody
Because you will be willing to pay 3 grand on a 5D for a camera body that doesn't come close to the $750 EOS 3. The market will stand a 20D without spot metering, they sold huge amounts of them. It takes Nikon to make Canon get their act together. Evenso, don't expect the 20D successor to fill out the entire wish list otherwise what would canon use to entice you to its successor? Nikon is updating far slower so they can afford not having to proclaim a raft of new features every 18 months.
The canon bodies have still not come to providing the functionality of the equivelent film bodies and the reason is because you will still buy the camera however lacking!
Seriously how many people are going to go Nikon for the D200? I doubt it's enough for canon to worry about, the cost of changing legacy gear makes any advantage in the realm of the pro world and they weren't shooting 20D's anyway, they have 5D's as backup to their 1Ds mkII's.
Lets do a poll, ask on this board how many 20D owners honestly will go over to Nikon lock stock and barrel if the 30D is 10.8 megapixel with a bigger buffer and LCD screen at $1400 in February but no other significant changes such as spot metering and weather proofing. How many XT owners who are already 'canon'? How many users who know that the D200 won't be updated for 3 years? I can't see canon sweating this....
anyone who believes that basically anything that one or the other company is "responding" to is silly. These companies have their own plan and they are on a roadmap that is perhaps 4 years out and they are plowing that road. Canon may well have a camera in the spring but it will Not be something as a response to the D200, it will be something they have been working on Before the 20D, the R&D and prototyping for this gear and the timelines are not something anyone could build in 6 months , thats for sure . Now they could do something to update a existing product like they did with the 1DMKIIn , but the 20D to morph into a D200 killer , ain't likely. Perhaps is a pretty full featured camera at the same price point as the D200 set for a spring launch , but it surely isn't something they will build in the mean time
Face it folks, the specs of the D200 are very, very impressive. Save for the sensor size it's a lot of what I'd hoped the 5D would be. That said, someone asked who would buy a D2X once the D200 is out? Well, very likely me. I've owned one or more of each of these: 10D, 20D, XT, 1Dmk2. Liked them all, took pics with each that made me look like a much better photographer then I actually am. Sold pics and made money with most of them. Still, the look of the images out of the D2X, the ergonomics (man, it just owns here), the 1.5 or 2x crop, the speed at 12Mp and 7mp, the lighter weight, andthe lens selection is looking more like my perfect camera. I don't care to much about wide angle, so FF doesn't mean a lot to me. And the high ISO is looking quite usable. Personally I'm psyched that the D200 is out, as it will help sell more Nikon glass and get more into the FM Buy and Sell forum.
-Tom
after four pages of this discussion, should i take it that it's not worth waiting for canon to come out with something that will match the d200 (price and function) in the very near future?
When you choose a digital SLR, you're choosing more than just a camera. You're choosing a system (lenses and accessories), and you're choosing a company that you believe will continue to deliver new technologies, new cameras, new lenses, etc. etc.
I agree that the Nikon D200 appears to be a terrific camera -- but probably the D100 had a similar reaction and appeal when it came out 3 (?) years ago.
I think we all agree that competition is good.
Congratulations Nikon. Now, let's have a little faith in Canon -- the ball's in your court!
Punkass wrote:
after four pages of this discussion, should i take it that it's not worth waiting for canon to come out with something that will match the d200 (price and function) in the very near future?
it really is never worth waiting, get whatever gear from whatever camp you like , they all are amazing . Once you have truly zeroed in on a style and type of shooting you enjoy Then it will matter but in the beginning , gear is the Last thing that is holding you back
1. You dont need a motor drive grip on a dSLR for high fps, there is no film motor to drive.
2. The high cost of the 5D although being market driven is mostly a function of sensor cost. Sensors must be defect free and making a substantially larger chip with no defects costs A LOT more. Thats why 1.6 crop exists. And thats why FF dSLR are so expensive.
That said, for those of you that are saying a 20D replacement will step on the toes the 5D, Canon has been doing this for years. They are called the 1D and 1Ds, ever heard of them? They sell to different markets.
jmcfadden wrote:
it really is never worth waiting, get whatever gear from whatever camp you like , they all are amazing . Once you have truly zeroed in on a style and type of shooting you enjoy Then it will matter but in the beginning , gear is the Last thing that is holding you back
rsg_1 wrote:
What we all need is a digital version of the film EOS 3.
Totally agreed. I had the EOS 3 for while and think it's a great camera. Very solid feel, excellent grip, super fast and very desirable eye focus ability. Hopefully it would be released with a lower price than the 5D
Beni wrote:
Lets do a poll, ask on this board how many 20D owners honestly will go over to Nikon lock stock and barrel if the 30D is 10.8 megapixel with a bigger buffer and LCD screen at $1400 in February but no other significant changes such as spot metering and weather proofing. How many XT owners who are already 'canon'? How many users who know that the D200 won't be updated for 3 years? I can't see canon sweating this....
Um... me
I bought a new car so sold some lenses, etc., to justify it to my wife. I ended up with only a couple of Canon lenses and a 5D. The 5D image quality was great, I was less happy with its camera side. So I said, hey, time to check out The Dark Side.
Nikon has a lot of things that Canon does not have, and I don't know why Canon does not add. The 3D (=distance info) color, 1005 zone matrix metering is worlds ahead of evaluative metering on Canon. It actually nails shots that matrix on the 1D-series would blow (e.g., backlit subjects in front of a wall of windows). John is right that the flash system, i-TTL, is excellent. It just plain works, no fiddling. The SB-800 speedlight is better than the 580EX, in every dimension, and the 580EX was supposed to be Canon's answer to the SB-800(!). The ergonomics emphasize switches over menu options. On the D2X, you can turn off push-and-twirl using a custom function. The viewfinder has ISO in it, image quality, exposure mode (S,A,P,M), a full count of shots remaining on the CF card, etc. It's 0.7lbs lighter than a 1D-series camera, too. It isn't without niggles, but Canonites shouldn't discount Nikon offerings.
Full time, part time, no time ... who cares? If non-working pros, (full time amateurs) didn't buy this gear, it wouldn't exist for you to use to make your living.
-Tom
1. You dont need a motor drive grip on a dSLR for high fps, there is no film motor to drive.
I did not mention a motor drive. I mearly ment that without a grip with the standard battery (probably a BP-511 varient) only 5FPS would be possible to get an acceptable number of images. The more images you take the faster your battery goes. Add a Battery grip, double the time of shooting at normal 5fps or shoot at 8fps but only get the equivilant shots as shooting at 5fps and one battery. Something like this
Mythical EOS 3D
5fps without Grip = 500 shots
5fps with Grip = 1000 shots
8fps with Grip = 500 shots
8fps without grip = not possible
This way, someone who wants or needs the features of a 1D series camera but needs to loose the grip from time to time can. But in doing this, either you would have to have the grip be for 2 BP-511's or have a special battery for the grip only.
Tom, you prove my point, someone without legacy equipment and nothing holding him back will look at the D2X/D200 and compare, I agree that the D2X is a better shooting machine than the 1Ds I owned (not comparing image quality, just use) and by default all other 1 series built the same way. That is my opinion, others would disagree.
What I'm saying is that a 20D/Rebel shooter, a non pro, is not going to make the switch that easily when the 30D will provide most of what they need. The D200 is more a mini D2X as the 5D is a mini 1Ds mkII. How many amatuers need those ergonomics, spot metering and other benefits when it means losing money on the switch that could buy another lens and still upgrade to the 30D?
For pros you buy the tool that best suits you, that you can work with day in day out. Your casual 20D shooter isn't working fast enough, or intuitively enough for him to need to make the switch instead of upgrading to the 30D.
As I've said, as a pro wedding shooter who uses a lot of flash I've almost gone Nikon many times but never as much as now. In the end the only reason I chose the far more expensive 5D over the D200 was for the IS of the 24-105L. After a week with it I realise that it may not have been worth the sacrifice...
Carl Auer wrote:
I did not mention a motor drive. I mearly ment that without a grip with the standard battery (probably a BP-511 varient) only 5FPS would be possible to get an acceptable number of images. The more images you take the faster your battery goes. Add a Battery grip, double the time of shooting at normal 5fps or shoot at 8fps but only get the equivilant shots as shooting at 5fps and one battery. Something like this
A higher FPS does not necessarily mean a higher number of shots. I think it would be silly to cripple the camera with the grip off since some people may only be shooting for short periods of time.
