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Archive 2005 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?

  
 
isaacw
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p.5 #1 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


The thing that gets to me is people use the analogy that if at some mainstream team sporting event, such as Superbowl or basketball, where if the main star cant perform then they won't shorten the field or lower the hoops. Well duh, they won't do that for one person, just like if only one F1 driver has blistering tires they won't do a damn thing. The USGP thing didn't just affect one driver, it affected 70% of the field. If 70% of your football or basketball players can't perform (thats all of one team and 30% of the other team for example), then there won't be an event, period. That's the difference.


Jun 22, 2005 at 04:53 PM
Deleshious
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p.5 #2 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


The point is that the michelin teams WERE able to run. Just not competitively. And instead of facing up to their disadvantage they whined and took their toys home.


Jun 22, 2005 at 04:58 PM
DaveEP
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p.5 #3 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


Deleshious wrote:
What if a team discovered their brakes were not able to withstand the punishment of a course (as happens often in Canada)?


Err... for a start, we are talking about 70% of the teams, not just one. Just one team would have had no effect on the GP at all.

And.......

Deleshious wrote:
Should the FIA change the layout of the course minutes before the race?


The track in Canada WAS being changed up to a short time before the race !!



Jun 22, 2005 at 05:01 PM
jomor
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p.5 #4 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


Okay so back to a topic that is related to photography.......I have been shooting F1 since the early 80s. My first Gp I shot with a Hasselblad!! All I can say is thank god god for Digital, and modern lens technology.
Yes Michelin screwed up, yes most to all of the teams push the boundary's of the rules. But as for Ferrari well, the agreed testing limits by all teams except guess who? I still miss the old cigar style cars where the Driver actually controlled the car more than running a computer...but that is another long argument. The US Gp sucked! it's all mute now anyway, it's come and gone and probably gone for good! I just hope the fans get at least some of their money back. Nest year wsa to be a 4 GP year for me, Australia, Canada, Mexico, and the U.S. so now it looks like a 3 race year.



Jun 22, 2005 at 05:04 PM
isaacw
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p.5 #5 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


Deleshious wrote:
The point is that the michelin teams WERE able to run. Just not competitively. And instead of facing up to their disadvantage they whined and took their toys home.


They could have ran, but not safely or to make it worth while. You would have 14 cars going half speed through turn 13 while 6 other cars are at full throttle. Not safe. You could also have the Michelin guys pit every 10 laps, that is if the officials agreed the tire looked like it was about to blow. No visual damage, no authorized tire change. I think that Michelin messed up big time, but given their options and the FIA's stance, there wasn't much to do aside from sitting out.



Jun 22, 2005 at 05:05 PM
Deleshious
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p.5 #6 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


Just because 70% of the teams rely on one manufacturer, who screwed them, doesnt mean the fundamental rules of the sport should be changed!

And the Canadian grand prix was simply resurfaced not a layout change



Jun 22, 2005 at 05:06 PM
Duncan Staples
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p.5 #7 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


The only important thing to me is that I have cancelled my F1 season pass on the Tivo and now have additional room for other forms of racing. ALMS, NHRA, IRL, CHAMP, NASCAR etc. Regardless of who is to blame, it is obvious that F1, the team owners and tire manufacturers did not have the fan's best interest in mind and that is something that NASCAR (regardless of your allegiance) has never done. NASCAR and NHRA are the two fastest growing forms of motor sports in the world and the common factor is fan based decisions and focus.

Duncan



Jun 22, 2005 at 05:09 PM
Deleshious
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p.5 #8 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


The FIA had already stated that changing the tires would be allowed.
another option was to run through the pit lane if they did not feel it was safe on the track.

The situation was a very difficult one. I am glad I wasnt in charge. But i feel like the rules of a sport need to be upheld even in these situations. The teams protest was not a good way to help the situation. I respect them for not wanting to put anybody in danger and recognize this.

I just dont think the FIA or ferrari has any blame in this.

Any way you looked at the situation the fans were going to get screwed. At least the intergity of the sport was upheld.



Jun 22, 2005 at 05:10 PM
Deleshious
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p.5 #9 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


gdstaples, yes I understand your disgust. I was afraid how this would affect F1. I love F1 and will continue to support it, but I feel it has taken a huge blow from this. It certainly fuels the fire for those who want to split off and make their own series.


Jun 22, 2005 at 05:19 PM
DaveEP
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p.5 #10 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


So what would NASCAR have done in this situation ?


Jun 22, 2005 at 05:41 PM
Duncan Staples
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p.5 #11 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


NASCAR would have most likely delayed the race if at all possible to get new tires flown in or they would have put in the chicane, run the race and then penalized the Michelin teams a certain number of points (or not awarded any at all) and then fined the heck out of them. The race would have been run, one way or the other you can count on that. Having said that, NASCAR is so well run from a business and competition point of view that this would have never been permitted to happen in the first place.

Duncan



Jun 22, 2005 at 06:00 PM
jomor
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p.5 #12 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


Split in F1 would be horrible. Look what happened when Cart divided. Does anyone watch IRL? I don't blame Ferrari either, but I do think that the FIA could have handled it a bit better. It really is a mess. There are some pretty heavy rumours about Bridgestone being forwarned by Firestone about the track. If that is the case then this will get even uglier. I do so hope that the US GP will be back, but I'm not going to hold my breath.


Jun 22, 2005 at 06:25 PM
strikeback03
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p.5 #13 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


Actually, the question is does anyone watch Champ Car, since IRL seems to have pulled ahead in the race of cripples.

Deleshious, I disagree with your integrity of the sport statements. IMO the reason professional sports (including motorsports) exists is for entertainment of the fans. As such if it comes to a choice of screwing some teams or screwing the fans then the teams should bend over.

IMO there would be no difference to the fans if those 14 cars ran at greatly reduced speed (and having to slow for 13 would have made a huge difference by the end of the straight). It still wouldn't be a race, because 18 of the cars had no chance of challenging. It would be a Ferrari test session with moving chicanes. Any changing tires or slowing in 13 would have caused this, so there was no point in it.

They should have added a slalom from the exit of 12 to the entrance to 13. Keep the speeds way down so no one gets hurt if they spin, then let them drag race down the front straight to 1.



Jun 22, 2005 at 07:15 PM
Duncan Staples
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p.5 #14 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


I used to be a die hard CART fan. My father was an executive for PPG in the late 80's and I often attended most races in a year, free of charge. While I hate Tony George for what he did to open wheel racing, the IRL puts on probaby the best show of any type (motor sports) on the planet. Watch the IRL races at Texas, Chicago, Kansas etc., and tell me you aren't on the edge of your seat the entire race. Simply amazing and on the edge of scary.

I used to be one of the ones that said, if they take away the great sound of that turbo I won't watch. I was wrong. While the IRL doesn't enjoy the fan base or ratings of NASCAR or F1, the competitive racing is un-matched any where. Simply thrilling. Yes you have your fillers like the Foyt's but 90% of the field could win on any given day. It pains me to say it but all that is left for CART/CHAMP is the funeral.



Jun 22, 2005 at 07:19 PM
gio64
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p.5 #15 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


Hi guys!
I'm back...
Reynard: I did not mean to say that in "interpreting the rules" the engineers make unsafe (or unsafer) cars; what I meant to say is that if I FIA change a rule to reduce the performance, I do it in the name of safety. If you engineer find a way around the rule and still perform at the same level, well, my safety concern has not been resolved, your car goes just as fast. I don't think there is any argument with that; remember the suspensions that moved the cars up and down? The rules introduced forced a minimum height to avoid the cars to use the "ground effect" with the "miniskirts"; reason was, that the lateral acceleration in the corners was too high to be safe. When the engineer gets around the rule and regains the downforce, the car is still going too fast around the corners, so it still is unsafe. Same story with boost regulators; too much power, here's a boost regulator. The team gets around it, the boost regulator doesn't quite work, the car still has too much power. As per safety, well I am very well aware of the efforts of engineers and federations around the world to increase safety, and I think they all have done an amazing job. I also firmly believe, as far as that goes, that the most important element of safety is the distance between the edge of a corner and the concrete wall outside of it. Increase that to infinity and you have hardly any safety problems. I didn't say that safety isn't a concern, I did not go back to my post, but I am quite sure I didn't. Once again, I only mentioned those situation to show how Ferrari doesn't get it its way. The fact that the very nature of F1 generates occasions to "cheat" is a story as old the sport; I personally kind of like it...
As far as the difficulty of installing the chicane, I did not have any doubt that the mighty Americans would have put together a heck of a chicane before we could say... chicane! But the difficulty, as I pointed out, was in determining the right position for it to be safe on either side (going in with enough escape route on the other side, going out into turn 13 slowly enough). We learn on this posts that the asphalt might not have resisted the stress of the braking and accelerating in that area, which adds to the problem. I still don't understand why we complain about the fact that FIA decided not to break the rules to accommodate a tire manufacturer problem.
Now, somebody was arguing above that the fact of having 70% of the teams with the problem makes it OK to not respect the rules, while if the problem would have occurred to the 30% of the teams, then this decision would have been fine. I cannot believe I hear this! According to this person, it is up to those who have leverage to use it for their own convenience! I guess if Ferrari tries to force everyone to use Bridgestone tires or else they don't race anymore becomes a legitimate possibility as long as Ferrari has the right popularity leverage with FIA? After all, there must be 70% of fans that root for them, so, this solution would make most fans happy, and it automatically makes it a good proposal(!?).
I repeat, again, the biggest problem here is that there are 2 tire manufacturers. If we had 10 or 1, this would not have happened. But rules are designed and observed in the name of equality, not in relation to how many teams will be affected by the rules.
Nobody here is answering the most elemental questions, steering (!) away from them.
There were viable alternatives. But Michelin and the 7 teams did not consider any of them. And people are still asking why the federation did not break the rules. I have to hear one direct circumstanciated answer to these questions: why none of the other routes were explored, evaluated and applied? Nobody here is telling us.



Jun 22, 2005 at 08:46 PM
jomor
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p.5 #16 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


Next year should be interesting if the rule change goes through to have one and only tire company for all of F1. Anyone want to bet it won't be Michlin. As for theFIA not changing the rules to suit the Michelin shod cars. Well if they had, gone ahead with alllow the new tires that had been flown in the fans would have had a race to watch instead they got screwed. It doesnot excuse Michelin they should have paid a price, instead now the whole sport has paid a price. The truth is the FIA wouldn't back down and they didn't expect that all the teams would just walk from the race, they got caught with there pants down. Yes the rules are there for a reason and yes they should be obeyed...but who would it have hurt if they agreed to the new tires, not the chicane.



Jun 22, 2005 at 09:11 PM
strikeback03
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p.5 #17 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


gio64 wrote:
I still don't understand why we complain about the fact that FIA decided not to break the rules to accommodate a tire manufacturer problem.


Because FIA's primary responsibility should have been to put on a good show for the fans who paid to be there. If that meant getting out shifter karts and having the drivers use them, they should have done it. The best drivers in the world in shifter karts would probably be a lot of fun to watch.


gio64 wrote:
Now, somebody was arguing above that the fact of having 70% of the teams with the problem makes it OK to not respect the rules, while if the problem would have occurred to the 30% of the teams, then this decision would have been fine. I cannot believe I hear this!


well, yes. If the situation had been reversed and bridgestone screwed up, then there would have still been 14 cars in the race, with at least 6 (McLaren, Williams, Renault) very capable of winning. As it was, only one car was really capable of winning, since everyone knows in a race between Schumacher and Barichello who is going to win.

gio64 wrote:
There were viable alternatives.


IMO anything that slowed all the Michelin cars to uncompetitive levels is not a viable alternative. if they cannot race, it doesnt matter if they are actually running or not.



Jun 22, 2005 at 09:35 PM
gio64
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p.5 #18 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


jomor, I am not sure they were told that in no way they would have been allowed to use the new tires. I think they just stated they were no good either...
I think this is what happened:
If they race at the conditions put forth by the FIA, for 1.5 hours the whole world sees Michelin shod cars taking a beating along the track (either by slowing down or changing tires frequently). The TV commentators would have hammered away at it for the entire race (every 15 laps: for those who just joined us, due to the problems caused by Michelin tires, the teams that are using those tires are racing through turn 13 at reduced speed...) you get the picture. A chicane would have given anyone the possibility to win and Michelin would have looked good for the entire race. If they would have lost the points, the image would have at least been saved. When faced with world wide ridicule, Michelin preferred to hide and be blamed. At least, the image was clean; they promoted safety, right?
Now, to those that are talking about NASCAR, IRL and Champ cars as if they are the great racing sports of the world: I believe that F1 is the most watched sport in the world year by year. The Olympics and the Soccer World cup beat it, but they only happen every 4 years (and the Olympics are not one sport, but all the sports together). I am trying to find some more info on these statistics to see how far down NASCAR and the other American major racing formulas are, but I have had no luck so far. As far as I can remember, the comparison cannot be even put together. It appears to me that the narrow-minded North American still believes that if something is popular on their land, than it's a world wide success. If my math skills still support me, attracting 25% of Chinese people to F1 would mean to surpass an audience of 100% of Americans. Even in terms of potential revenues, that market would be far more important 10 years down the road.
I think you are forgetting that while F1 is a truly international sport, any of the american racing formats are simply American. The fact that they are almost entirely run on American soil, that they are entirely driven by the American idea of racing simply reinforces their intrinsic limitations. I know Europe very well and I know that the popularity of American racing there is not very high.
I also believe that the biggest problem that F1 has in the US is that it is not American...
And I will repeat that until I am blue in the face. Losing one entire season of Hockey won't doom Hockey. Having horrific accidents like Zanardi's won't put a dent in Champ car racing. Finishing behind a pace car will always be OK. Why? because it's American sport. And Americans run it and control it. So, it's part of national traditions, it's simply accepted and forgiven.
As far as these sports being interesting to watch, I really wouldn't know from which side to start to take them apart. Racing on an oval is an abomination per se. You seem to all know quite a bit about racing, so I don't have to point out why an F1 race is much more challenging than an oval race ("easy" on a race simulator is driving on an oval...). You also are very well aware of the technical edge that F1 has and this element should be to a real car nut one of the most important qualities in a racing sport. If you find it entertaining to watch NASCAR over F1, there must be something wrong with you. I don't mean this in an offensive way. I simply think that logically there should be no reason to feel like that. As a race fan, I see the challenge of braking from 350 Km/h to 70 in 70 meters much higher than lifting off as you approach a banked corner on an oval. Prove me wrong. I will concede to you that when it comes to IRL, there is a high risk factor (smashing into a wall at incredible speeds with not a lot of car around you) that somewhat makes it up for what would otherwise be another boaring race. But with that comes the possibility of losing valuable drivers, so I am not so sure I am entertained that much either.
I am being controversial, but that's my nature...



Jun 22, 2005 at 09:56 PM
gio64
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p.5 #19 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


strikeback03: I understand your point. You pay a ticket, to watch a carnival. You don't care if they give you the one eyed monster, the man that takes tha cannonball on his belly or the elephant man; you're in for the ride.
Rules? Who cares! What matters is that someone puts on a show for you.
What a way to win an argument: you are basically saying: "I want to see a race, so as long as I get a race I am fine. How I get it doesn't matter." If I don't get a race, then everyone is wrong and I am right." How can you be wrong?
Well, let me tell you this: Formula 1 has become what it is thanks to the fact that it has kept itself in the guidelines of sports for half a century. If you want the carnies, go see a carnival, they'll put on a show for you at any cost.
F1 is a sport, a true one. There are rules, there are problems, but what makes people watch it is that it is not wrestling; they don't decide who wins ahead of time. It is entertaining if you understand it and take the time out to learn it. If you are one of those that watch races so that they could witness a big bang, then this is not for you. I imagine you watch Hockey for the fights, Football for the tackles and Soccer for the fans' riots. I am sure there will be a Carnival coming around were you live some time this year; I suggest you go, since the ticket will be much cheaper and the freaks in much higher number: satisfaction guaranteed!



Jun 22, 2005 at 10:14 PM
gio64
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p.5 #20 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


In relation to strikeback03's reply to my previous post:

1)BTW: FIA's primary responsibility is not to put on a show. If you don't believe me, get the regulations and see what their priorities are.

2)The quantity of cars that were affected by the problem doesn't change the importance of the rules; if it did, then in the rules it would be stated that regulations are to be respected only when no more than so many cars are involved. But they don't, which means that your point is irrelevant.

3) A viable alternative is one that allows the race to go on under regulations and safety. If you are on the stands and don't like it, it is your problem, not FIA's.

I repeat that this was a bad thing. But, once again, things like these happen in different forms in different sports all the time. I remember a few years ago one instant replay in FootBall that was misjudged and that sent the wrong team to the SuperBowl. Things happen. In the last 22 years this has happened to F1 once. That means that F1 had 1 problem over the course of approximately 350 races. I wouldn't lose my mind over it or condemn the sport because it happened. Everyone screws up sometime.



Jun 22, 2005 at 10:25 PM
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