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Archive 2005 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?

  
 
fotofly
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p.3 #1 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


Michelin publishes a nice photo calendars but they can't make tyres for Indianapolis and I must say that there's no others but Michelin to blame about this! I drive with expensive Michelin tyres and should I start to think where I'm able to drive with 'em! BTW Ralf might have been lost his life because of Michelin you lost your money ( I wonder how much) Kimi lost his chances to narrow the lead of Alonso, we could continue this.... What we get in exchange for this........... a nice PHOTO CALENDAR!


Jun 20, 2005 at 02:31 AM
misster
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p.3 #2 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


beast wrote:
Pretty biased statement there. Michelin knew the rules and had as much time as Bridgestone had to create tires to the new rules.



Can you confirm that M had received the info about the new surface such as B had...?



Jun 20, 2005 at 02:46 AM
beast
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p.3 #3 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


misster wrote:
Can you confirm that M had received the info about the new surface such as B had...?



The new surface had nothing to do with it. Michelin had problems with the tires getting cut down at last years GP. This caused Ralf and Alonso to crash out of the race. They had 5 years of data from this track to work with along with data from the Porsche Super Cup, And Formula BMW cars to get data from. It is simple they have been running on the ragged edge all season long with the 1 tire rule have 5 times the test data on the new tires over Bridgestone/Ferrari has.

If you look back at the past F1 races this year you will see that all of the Michelins had run down to slicks yet the FIA does nothing about it.

Michelin could have run this race but they decided to give the World wide F1 fan base a "Stiff Middle Finger". If this had happened at a european race a full blown riot would have more than likely broken out.



Jun 20, 2005 at 06:51 AM
Ed Peters
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p.3 #4 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


The fault lies entirely with Michelin! Having said that, NASCAR has (at least a lot of people feel they have) the "EIRI" rule. This allows them to alter the rules for the sake of the fan (I don't care for NASCAR, but they do put the fan ahead of everything else). FIA should be replaced, and maybe that's why the teams (except uknowwho) stuck together in the hopes of bringing that to a head.


Jun 20, 2005 at 07:10 AM
DaveEP
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p.3 #5 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


Ed Peters wrote:
FIA should be replaced, and maybe that's why the teams (except uknowwho) stuck together in the hopes of bringing that to a head.


The team ARE going to replace the FIA - hence the existance of the GPWC - but they are contracted to the FIA until 2007.

Only Ferrari had signed up with the FIA past then. Another example where Ferrari stands aparts from other teams. Why are they doing this? Because the other teams think that Ferrari get an unreasonable portion of the marketing/rights money from F1.






Jun 20, 2005 at 09:27 AM
the_farouk
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p.3 #6 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


I dont really want to add more to this, but let more point out that Michelen is at blame for this incident. As others have said, if Ferrari would have said they would not race for saftey reasons, everyone would have laughed at them and said they were gaming the system.

The single tire rule is stupid anyway, but Michelin has proving several times this year that they are willing to trade saftey for performance.






Jun 20, 2005 at 12:46 PM
DigitalNinja
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p.3 #7 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


Ferrari's tyres were OK so why would they settle for slowing down their cars. F1 is about constructor's points also so tyres are important part there. Michelin is the one who messed up. The teams running on Michelin could have run on slower speed or taken the pit lane if they were so willing to put the race on display for the spectators. Puting a chicane in the end was no good for people practicing and tuning their cars for past 2 days on the track. I think on that point each team just wanted to hold onto their stand. The rules can't be changed on the week hour. The whole situation was a mixture of crapola. I was there too and one of the booers but that was not for the drivers.


Jun 20, 2005 at 04:01 PM
bassplayer
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p.3 #8 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


- Michelin could have run this race but they decided to give the World wide F1 fan base a "Stiff Middle Finger". If this had happened at a european race a full blown riot would have more than likely broken out.

Not true. Michelin has made a mistake, and was very honest in saying they couldn't run this race because their tyres were faulty. They tried to find solutions (other less competitive tyres, chicane, chicane with no points for Michelin cars,etc...) but all solutions were accepted by 9 teams and only one refused all the solutions : Ferrari.
I've been a big fan of Ferrari for more than 20 years, but I have to say they had more dignity when they used to lose. And now they win for 4 or 5 years, they are very arrogant
and had very strange behaviours (remember the last corner in Austria when they changed positions, or Indy when they tried to be at the same time at the finish...).

I do respect the teams which doesn't play with their driver's lives, because of sponsors, TV coverage and so on. They were very close to find a acceptable and -of course- exceptional solution to an exceptional problem, but Ferrari didn't want a race, they wanted the 18 points.

I do like F1, but not in the way of Ferrari. But their cars are beautiful for us photographers of course !!



Jun 20, 2005 at 04:23 PM
SonicZoom
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p.3 #9 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


FIA has made exceptions to Bridgestone in the recent past... so f*ck the FIA.

This sums up my feelings quite well.

the birds were flying everywhere in indy



Jun 20, 2005 at 06:03 PM
DaveEP
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p.3 #10 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


What exceptions?




Jun 20, 2005 at 06:07 PM
SonicZoom
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p.3 #11 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


DaveEP wrote:
What exceptions?



"Ross Brawn’s drinking buddy Charles Whiting released a letter that he got from Michelin with some smart answers as to why they couldn’t use different tyres on Sunday.

But he’s changed the rules for Bridgestone prior to a race so we’ve been here before. It's surprising nobody’s questioned why Whiting changed the tyre rules at the beginning of the 2003 Brazilian GP.

Back in 2003 you were only allowed to take one wet tyre to races, so you had to make your mind up before the event. Bridgestone arrived at Interlagos with their legendary intermediate tyre that was quite good in wet and mixed conditions. Michelin had a full wet that could run in more rain.

When the heavens opened before the race, Whiting delayed the start because the Bridgestone runners wouldn’t have been able to make it round safely. It was clearly Bridgestone’s fault for not bringing a full wet tyre, but as the argument has gone this weekend – they knew the situation…

After delaying the start the field was then sent round Interlagos behind the Safety Car until enough water was taken off the circuit. Had they released the field when it was suitable for the Michelins on full wets, then Fisichella would never have won the race in his Jordan and Kimi Raikkonen may well have got the win.

Nobody complained because it was a safety issue. Fast forward two years and Whiting is not prepared to compromise in another safety situation. This interpretation of the rules when it suits them makes F1 fans deeply suspicius - it's like there was an agenda here from the FIA."



Jun 20, 2005 at 06:26 PM
rosco1971
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p.3 #12 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


its not ferrari's fault michelin brought bad tires to this race.......what about when ferrari had trouble....and still do actually with the bridgestones......they raced even though the had bad tires....they went slower.....just what they told the michelin runners.....go slower.....why should ferrari.....jordon and minardi....run on an modified course to suit the needs of the other teams that have poor tires?.......i know its bad what happened...and shit for the race fans that were there....but why change the rules for the ones that have bad tires?.....this is all michelin's fault....and they will not take the blame......everyone allways has to blame ferrari when things go bad......is it thier fault all these years teams could not keep up?


Jun 20, 2005 at 06:44 PM
strikeback03
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p.3 #13 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


ESPN.com is reporting that the Michelin teams face possible sanctions from FIA for parking their cars. Do the teams have any control over what tire their tire manufacturer brings for them?

How would the cars staying on the track be beneficial to the race? The fans would not have been any happier to see 6 cars racing and 14 cruising, instead of 6 cars racing and 14 parked. Having cars moving at significantly different speeds would have been a danger for all involved. And no one would know how fast was too fast on the Michelins until they started blowing, which is obviously an unacceptable way to find out.

Michelin is responsible for bringing bad tires. But FIA is responsible for putting on the show, and the blame for not trying to reach an acceptable compromise to put on a good race falls on them.



Jun 20, 2005 at 08:56 PM
S T P
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p.3 #14 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


I was there... non-credentialed photog (for this series). I shot on Friday and Saturday only (about 750 images). On Sunday I just wanted to enjoy the race with my wife. I didn't even bring my camera...

I don't understand the disappointment of other photographers here though... there was still a very compelling story to capture and tell and some of the work I've seen around has done that exceptionally well. sure its a different challenge than the usual Formula 1 race... but there was still loads of good photographic opportunities on Sunday.

no comment on the tire controversy. I save that for motorsport fora.



Jun 21, 2005 at 08:38 AM
F1-Fanatic
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p.3 #15 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


It was probably the saddest thing to see. The cars took to the grid for the formation lap and when they came around to set the false grid every single car with Michelin shod rubber pulled off one by one into the pit land and retired their cars even before the race started. The teams having concern for their drivers well being couldn't allow them to race unless safety measures were put into place (ie. a chicane in turn 13 where the banking starts) to save the sidewalls from the newly surfaced track which proved to be too abrasive even after being diamond honed earlier in the month. the governing body (FIA) stood on ceremony, and their rule books, and said that they would make no concessions to alter the circuit and that the tire supplier, Michelin, should have taken this into account and brought two different compounds to the race as they are allowed under article 3.16.3 of the sporting regulations and have it count as a sanctioned event (meaning no points for anyone using either Michelin or Bridgestone tires).

Ferrari, postured to protest them even if they did which is bullshit because if they were winning races, which they aren't, wouldn't even think of such a thing and took a joyless and meaningless win. I still have on my DVR and watched it again last night just to let it sink in. It kinda made me sick and weakened my love for the sport. I hope the FIA and the IMS (Indianapolis Motor Speedway) file suit against Michelin on behalf of the fans who took time off from work, their lives, and families.. not to mention spent their hard earned money to fly in and get hotel rooms for the weekend which I almost did myself.

Screwed up isn't it? It's unfortunately big business coming before driver safety and the fans and that's disgusting.. Max Moseley, the FIA, the idiots at Michelin, and Ferrari, you all should be ashamed of yourselves.

I think this photo says it all regarding what I feel the lot of them should do next time Max opens the floor for rule restrictions.

http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=3470461

Cheers!



Jun 21, 2005 at 09:36 AM
PapaG
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p.3 #16 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


STP,

What many, if not most of us motorsports photographers went to IMS to take photographs of was.....drum roll please....... RACING.

We did NOT go there as photojournalists to record the world around us. I for one, did NOT get up in the morning and say, you know what, "today I am going to go to IMS (where I've gone for 26 years) and take pictures of people showing their anger and disappointment at what was no better than a Ferrari practice session with moving chicanes........."



Jun 21, 2005 at 10:36 AM
S T P
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p.3 #17 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


understood... I guess I'd just be more ready to make lemonade out of lemons than some people. no worries. if there's one thing I've come to learn and enjoy about F1 over the years... anything can happen. its like the heavyweight boxing equivalent of motorsport.

I hope you were camped out at turn 1 to get that near miss between the pointy red cars at least. as that was about the only moment of racing drama we were treated to, unfortunately.



Jun 21, 2005 at 10:58 AM
gio64
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p.3 #18 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


Hi everyone, I am new here, I hope I don't do anything wrong...
Well, first of all, I need to reply to the incorrect post that referred to bending the rules has been done before.
For starters, SonicZoom has forgotten the most important part of that weekend (Brazilian GP2003), or he doesn't tell the whole story, because it would not support what he's saying. At the Brazilian GP 2003, the qualifying was dry. The rule that prevented the teams from changing the setup after qualifying was already there. Schumacher (and maybe one or two other drivers) decided to qualify with a wet setup, de facto ruining their chance of qualifying their cars upfront. The next day, Charlie Whiting decided to not obey to the new rules and allowed everyone to change the setup and the tires on the basis of safety (the cars would have had to otherwise start the race with the qualifying setup, which he felt would have been a hazard). This penalized Schumacher, since he had given up the qualifying performance in order to be well prepared for a wet race. I don't understand why SonicZoom doesn't mention this part. Also, starting the race under caution was a procedure that already existed. The conditions of the track were absolutely ridiculous, since I believe 8 cars (or more) out of 20 ended up going off on the same corner (that is 40% of the starting grid and included Michelin shod cars, proving that Whiting's decision was actually not only justified, but not cautious enough). To mention that event in conjunction with this is simply bios and plain wrong. He also doesn't mention the fact that Michelin raced for most of the season with tires that were as a matter of fact irregular, being designed in a way that the maximum foot print allowed for the tires would actually increase with wear, allowing all the Michelin shod teams to run on illegal tires (they got around the regulation, because the tire controls were done by the federation before the race and not at the end -understandably, since you don't want to have the drivers risk their lives only to find out the tires weren't regular in the first place-). When Michelin was finally forced to race regular tires, they stopped winning and had to wait until the Monaco GP of 2004 to score another victory. Nobody at FIA decided to disqualify any of the Michelin shod cars, nor did they attempt to penalize them in any way. But SonicZoom will tell you that although the tires were irregular, since they were checked before the race (when they appeared to be OK) Michelin was really doing nothing wrong, right?
If I am not mistaking, at the Brazilian GP all the Bridgestone shod cars showed up at the start, started the race behind the Safety Car and then lost positions because they had to drive slowly when the weather conditions did not allow them to push.
How does that compare to not racing?
Does he have any information regarding who asked for that decision (starting under Safety Car)? Does he know if that is something present in the rules or not?
While the rain was a temporary problem, the Indy corner was not (Whiting also allowed McLaren mechanics to do questionable work on Raikkonen's car to repair potential problems during the season in more than one occasion). But as the regular Joe likes to say, they all want Ferrari to win. We have no proof; actually, we have proof of the opposite, but let’s blame Ferrari, because somebody says so. Or better yet, let’s blame them because they are the tip of the technological arrow in the world and they are not American or English, which sounds better to me.
Now, Indy was a disgrace, no question about it. Here's why.
Michelin failed to provide tires that would last reliably for longer than 10 laps. Michelin failed to bring a second tire for dry conditions. Michelin flew other tires to the track and then said that they were not going to work anyway (why? they did not test them in any way). Michelin told the teams not to race. The teams could have changed their tires 6 times in the race, doing a couple of slower laps and using whatever reliable life they had on those tires, and they could have ended up with a third position. That is with both Ferraris finishing, and that was not guaranteed, as we all saw, which means that in the end, with a couple of lucky breaks they could have finished the race in first.
FIA had communicated that they weren't going to allow the chicane. This is obvious. It establishes a very dangerous precedent for the sport. Also, this chicane would not have been evaluated from a safety standpoint, which makes it a bit of a paradox, considering why they would have put it in place. As we have learned today, the chicane would have likely not solved the tire problems, rendering the bending of the rules absolutely useless.
All this doesn't answer the following question: why should the teams that have no problems drive around the chicane?
Now, I would like to spend a couple of words on Ferrari.
The fact that somebody calls them in contention here is simply idiotic. The rules are there and something like "you shall not modify the track after the weekend has started" doesn't penalize anyone specifically in a line of principle, so I don't understand why you would even bother with calling them in this mess. Had they said yes, had Whiting allowed the construction, had the race gone on like that, the FIA would have invalidated it. That would have been a real farce. And -again- why should somebody lose the opportunity of making points if they have done nothing wrong? I cannot believe that the blame for this would be put on a team. It is simply ridiculous. After Michelin doesn't supply decent tires, after Michelin doesn't have another tire, after the team have 2 options (slow down or change tires quite a few times), after FIA has said that they cannot allow the track changes to happen, after the Michelin teams decide to not communicate their decision not to race to Race Director (by rules, they should do so I believe 1 hour prior to the start, if they know that they will not be able to race), after all the Michelin teams pull in at the end of the formation lap...
It's FERRARI'S FALUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHY DIDN'T THEY SAY YES TO THE CHICANE It just amazes me.
One last comment for those that had the stupid $ sign on or that have just said that this was a matter of big business or money: if there is one thing that this mess disproved is that this sport is about money (not that I think so, but it certainly it did not show this weekend). Michelin lost by not racing. The teams lost by not racing. Formula 1 lost from this. The Indy organization lost from this. All the engine manufacturers (BTW, all of them are way bigger than Ferrari in terms of revenues) lost from this. But we have still people talking how it's about money (who’s money? What monetary advantage did anyone gain from this event?).
Can somebody tell me if anyone throws beer cans and water bottles when they suspend a race on an oval because it rains?
Gio



Jun 21, 2005 at 10:01 PM
isaacw
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p.3 #19 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


Suspending a race on a oval track is VERY different then what happened at the USGP.


Jun 21, 2005 at 10:53 PM
jomor
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p.3 #20 · Only 6 F1 cars running at Indy?


Well actually Bridgestone had been forwarned of excess wear on the tyres by Firestone who had run on the new surface. Not very fair at all. Secondly the governing body, the FIA, are all money grabbing spoiled Rich boys and wouldn't back off on not puting on a chicane so the fans lost out. I have heard that the teams are being fined 16 million dollars for pulling out of the race and that money will go to paying back the poor fans who got ripped off! I wouldn't be a bit surprised if this marks end of the U.S. G.P. and the begining of the end for either the FIA or F1 in general. There is another splinter race formula coming out of F1, similar to what happened to Indycar/cart/IRL. I't a real shame it happend and the real losers are the fans. I hope it never happens again, but the damage has been done.


Jun 21, 2005 at 11:04 PM
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