burchyk wrote:
> I rarely convert digital photos to BW.
This statement there makes me think you don't want a Monochrom.
Perhaps you are right, but there are many other reasons to not like a mono image that was taken in color and converted to mono in post.
I would argue the OP should use a monochrom for a day/week and then make up their mind. While the monochrom is not always the best camera for each situation, the banger pics that I end up printing and hanging on the wall mostly come from the monochrom.
I initially got into monochrome because I had done a 9-day-long glacier travel trip and noticed that monochrome converted images looked nice. After some research, I concluded that glaciers and monochrome were a perfect fit, bought a monochrome camera, slapped on a red filter, and I have been taking that camera on glacier trips since then (two summit attempts on Denali and one summit on Rainier). The Q2M crushed on all of these trips.
I was not certain if the monochrome camera would serve me well outside of those trips, and in 2024 I took it to the tropics. Because I was so uncertain, I also had a color camera on me. This is not an apples to apples comparison by any means, but it is a comparison of how monochrome images are different, and I apologize I lack the vocabulary to put it in words, so here is the view from a balcony in the tropics.
Even if you perfected the color image (by waiting for the decisive moment), I will argue the monochrome image is miles ahead in story telling.
I’d say go for it if you already know you enjoy shooting BW film. The monochrome files have a different feel, but if you can only afford one digital Leica, I’d probably stick with color for the flexibility.
I initially got into monochrome because I had done a 9-day-long glacier travel trip and noticed that monochrome converted images looked nice. After some research, I concluded that glaciers and monochrome were a perfect fit, bought a monochrome camera, slapped on a red filter, and I have been taking that camera on glacier trips since then (two summit attempts on Denali and one summit on Rainier). The Q2M crushed on all of these trips.
I was not certain if the monochrome camera would serve me well outside of those trips, and in 2024 I took it to the tropics. Because I was so uncertain, I also had a color camera on me. This is not an apples to apples comparison by any means, but it is a comparison of how monochrome images are different, and I apologize I lack the vocabulary to put it in words, so here is the view from a balcony in the tropics.
Even if you perfected the color image (by waiting for the decisive moment), I will argue the monochrome image is miles ahead in story telling....Show more →
Ummm...OK. Personally beach scenes for me is all colour...especially during sunset.
I shoot most of my images in colour and then convert to B&W. This gives me tons of latitude during post processing allowing me to fine tune each image to it's strengths.
Some examples:
If you decide on a Monochrom, I highly recommend going the extra step and having the hot mirror removed from the camera as well. Having full spectrum is more expensive. Aside from the surgery, assuming you're not gutsy enough to do it yourself (I wouldn't be), your lenses will all need UV/IR cut filters (or a hot mirror filter like BG-40 for anything wider than 24mm) to shoot visible light only. For that extra expense, you get new methods of controlling contrast and the overall appearance of your creation with IR shooting. It's been well worth it for me.
I had an M246 for years and never missed having a colour camera. Strictly speaking that's not quite true. I also had an M3 and an M6 that I mainly shot colour with, but the M246 was the one that mattered.
Having black and white only meant I started to see differently. I looked for patterns, shapes, light and contrast in a way I never had with a colour camera. It let me capture something I don't believe I would have seen at all with a normal M.
Today I have an M11, and while I enjoy it a lot, I find very little pleasure in converting files to black and white. I think I've worked out why. With the M246 the decision was made before the shutter, composition, exposure and subject choice were all built around tonal separation. Conversion is a decision made afterwards, on a file that was seen in colour. I'm translating rather than seeing, and the result always feels like it.
I also have a Q2M for special occasions, but I use it very little. And I suspect that's the same problem in a different form. The M246 worked because there was no fallback in the bag. Or at least not one I reached for. The Q2M has one: the M11 is right there. So when I plan a session, I'm already thinking in colour before I've even decided which camera to bring.
If I were to sum it up, a monochrome camera changes the opportunity set. Whether you can take advantage of that depends on discipline, and on whether you're willing to adapt. If you are, you end up with photos you'll enjoy for years, probably decades.
For situations where I do use the monochrome, I don't miss having the color sensor even if the occasional shot in those times would look better in color. That said I have both - the M10 Monochrom and the M10R bodies.
I like having clean images SOOC if possible, and hence, the M10M is a great option when it's darker indoors - or for night walks outside - the ability to shoot clean images at smaller apertures is unparalleled. On the other hand, for daytime, and colorful scenes, the M10R is preferred.
The M10M clips highlights very easily - and hence for scenes like that too, the color sensor helps.
It's hard to say one is 'better' than the other, but the M10M certainly creates a classic feel - and since you *know* that b&w isn't an option, but the default for this camera - it makes you shoot in a slightly different manner and makes you mindful of some color combinations which look similarly grey.
Keeping the regular M and the monochrom M from the same model helps because batteries / chargers / accessories can be easily shared and the feel-in-hand stays exactly the same.
theHUN wrote:
I respect that. But I think color sometimes distracts from a better story than "the sun has risen/set" ... events that happen once a day.
Yes, if you use colour just for beauty…then it’s just a nice pic. But couldn’t you say the same for monochrome. Neither of your two images from the balcony tells a story from my perspective. Shooting a sunset in monochrome does not automatically tell a story.
OleAndre wrote:
I had an M246 for years and never missed having a colour camera. Strictly speaking that's not quite true. I also had an M3 and an M6 that I mainly shot colour with, but the M246 was the one that mattered.
Having black and white only meant I started to see differently. I looked for patterns, shapes, light and contrast in a way I never had with a colour camera. It let me capture something I don't believe I would have seen at all with a normal M.
Today I have an M11, and while I enjoy it a lot, I find very little pleasure in converting files to black and white. I think I've worked out why. With the M246 the decision was made before the shutter, composition, exposure and subject choice were all built around tonal separation. Conversion is a decision made afterwards, on a file that was seen in colour. I'm translating rather than seeing, and the result always feels like it.
I also have a Q2M for special occasions, but I use it very little. And I suspect that's the same problem in a different form. The M246 worked because there was no fallback in the bag. Or at least not one I reached for. The Q2M has one: the M11 is right there. So when I plan a session, I'm already thinking in colour before I've even decided which camera to bring.
If I were to sum it up, a monochrome camera changes the opportunity set. Whether you can take advantage of that depends on discipline, and on whether you're willing to adapt. If you are, you end up with photos you'll enjoy for years, probably decades.
100% agree on this. When I had the M10-R and M10-M I found I typically grabbed the M10-R because what if I did want to capture something in color. When I was left with the M10-M as my primary camera it changed the way I made photographs and that's what I wanted to keep. It made sense to me to have one camera that could do color and AF but not as my primary camera.
chez wrote:
Yes, if you use colour just for beauty…then it’s just a nice pic. But couldn’t you say the same for monochrome. Neither of your two images from the balcony tells a story from my perspective. Shooting a sunset in monochrome does not automatically tell a story.
Lousy low res forum pic, my bad.
Color pic: Not a story and that was my point.
Mono pic: A person is lounging in a beach chair reading a book. There is a story that is deeper than "pretty colors".
OleAndre wrote:
I had an M246 for years and never missed having a colour camera. Strictly speaking that's not quite true. I also had an M3 and an M6 that I mainly shot colour with, but the M246 was the one that mattered.
Having black and white only meant I started to see differently. I looked for patterns, shapes, light and contrast in a way I never had with a colour camera. It let me capture something I don't believe I would have seen at all with a normal M.
Today I have an M11, and while I enjoy it a lot, I find very little pleasure in converting files to black and white. I think I've worked out why. With the M246 the decision was made before the shutter, composition, exposure and subject choice were all built around tonal separation. Conversion is a decision made afterwards, on a file that was seen in colour. I'm translating rather than seeing, and the result always feels like it.
I also have a Q2M for special occasions, but I use it very little. And I suspect that's the same problem in a different form. The M246 worked because there was no fallback in the bag. Or at least not one I reached for. The Q2M has one: the M11 is right there. So when I plan a session, I'm already thinking in colour before I've even decided which camera to bring.
If I were to sum it up, a monochrome camera changes the opportunity set. Whether you can take advantage of that depends on discipline, and on whether you're willing to adapt. If you are, you end up with photos you'll enjoy for years, probably decades.
That's such a nice photo! And i think it really illustrates one area where monochrome really shines. Love it in winter conditions! Wouldn't mind seeing more
If you are a B&W photographer there is nothing better than a mono sensor or B&W film. The question is are you truly a B&W photographer? Can you create only in B&W? I could and pretty much do with my personal work. Finding out who you are as a photographer is not easy and it can be a long journey.
A few from the M 10 Mono and the M9 Mono and mostly 35 Summilux FLE v1
Could I have made these in color and then converted? Probably but they might not have been the same.
For me and the way I work if I'm shooting color is I am seeing in color from the start. Searching for mages that would be appropriate for color. Things like color relationships, etc.
B&W is an entirely different way of seeing. And for me having that as the only way of capturing images, my way of seeing is locked into what is appropriate for B&W. Color, other than how it will render in B&W, doesn't come into my creative process.
Anyway, that's what works for me. Lotsa room to move around and there are many amazing color photographers in this world. Finding the tools that fit the way one sees and works is absolutely priceless. I know what works for me. And that may or may not work for anyone else.
That's my 2 cents. My advice is get out and work however you do that and enjoy the journey.
Color pic: Not a story and that was my point.
Mono pic: A person is lounging in a beach chair reading a book. There is a story that is deeper than "pretty colors".
Really? The monochrome photo has interest because of the subject matter in the photo…not because it’s monochrome. You posted an extremely weak and one sided argument.
I donno. I personal like it in B&W. I'm not getting lost in the color. I like the frame inside a frame concept and whether it would be better in color can be subjective Sometimes color can confuse and image. And I think it works because of the subject matter and the fact there is no color to distract from that.
chez wrote:
Really? The monochrome photo has interest because of the subject matter in the photo…not because it’s monochrome. You posted an extremely weak and one sided argument.
No reason to become so divided about this. From a pure technical POV, yes, I can easily convert color photos in B&W what you proficiently demonstrated earlier. Nobody can say if a digital B&W photo came from a B&W conversion, or if it was taken from a monochrome camera by looking at the image. But the difference sets in when using actually a monochrome camera: it enforces a pre-vision by the user similar of using B&W film. And this pre-vision is not the same when using a color based sensor camera, even if you set it to B&W conversion of the photo in JPG and on the screen. The closest match is using an EVF-based camera with B&W based EVF image - that's IMO alike of using a monochrome camera because it enforces the same pre-vision in monochrome. But you still later need to convert from a RGB based RAW file.
cmatthews74 wrote:
I have been really tempted to try a dedicated monochrome camera (M10M most likely) as a "main camera." For cameras, I currently have color digital (Fuji) and film (M6 and a point and shoot). I rarely convert digital photos to BW. When I shoot BW film, I don't miss color, but for some reason cannot convince myself that I will actually be happy with a monochrome camera.
For those that have pulled the trigger and bought one of the monochrome cameras (Leica M246, M10M, M11M, or otherwise), what are your thoughts? Did you trade it in and go back to color? Should I just stick with film? Is there that big of a difference between converting images to BW and shooting a dedicated monochrome camera?
Also, lets just assume that I cannot afford two digital Leicas. lol...Show more →
I love monochrome, and specifically I love the M11M. I thought long and hard about making it my only M camera.
For night shooting, or days when you know you want to shoot B&W, it's pretty incredible—worth every penny. Some of my favorite images I've ever made came from the M11M. For example, a week-long trip to NYC: I only took my M11M and the 28 Cron and couldn't have been happier. I was convinced B&W could be enough for me. (NYC is amazing in B&W.)
But here's the day that killed any thought of converting 100%: I was on a business trip to LA, staying in Venice Beach, and brought both my M11-P and M11M. It turned out to be one of the most incredible days of color I've ever seen—so much to shoot that I was completely convinced I need both options. If I'd been limited to B&W that day, I would have been searching hard for interesting subjects. With color, it was everywhere I looked.
To your actual question, though: if I could only have one, I'd keep color and convert when I want B&W—but if B&W is truly where your heart is, the M11M won't disappoint.
(I hate opinions without photos)
Malibu Fires where going on weeks before Palisades fire-
The pics are just the tip of the iceberg. There were so many photogenic scenes that I was not able to capture because we had to maintain rope interval and such.
chez wrote:
Really? The monochrome photo has interest because of the subject matter in the photo…not because it’s monochrome. You posted an extremely weak and one sided argument.
Not the first time we disagree, not the last time either. All good.
