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Technical question about a photo and its style

  
 
jimmuller
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p.1 #1 · Technical question about a photo and its style


Here is another composition question. I posted this picture in the Nikon/MFNG thread:

Purple
by James Muller, on Flickr

As with all my photos, it was taken with a vintage MF F-mount lens on a Z5ii. With pics like this that are a conglomerate of similar visual elements, I am never confident about where to focus. In this pic the best focus is not on the flower in the center but on several others further away, in particular one to the left. When I look at it now I question how viewers will see it. It's sort of like a landscape where the entire field of view is important but without having the advantage of a large DOF. A viewer might conclude that I missed the focus. In fact I intentionally (or experimentally) sacrificed the center focus to get a broader montage of imagery. I'm not sure it works. It's all about what I want the picture to be, but if the technical details make it not work then it doesn't work.

Comments, recommendations, anyone?



Jul 03, 2026 at 02:27 PM
grandmas
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p.1 #2 · Technical question about a photo and its style


jimmuller wrote:
Here is another composition question. I posted this picture in the Nikon/MFNG thread:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/55371118231_82d3e8c9ba_b.jpgPurple
by James Muller, on Flickr

As with all my photos, it was taken with a vintage MF F-mount lens on a Z5ii. With pics like this that are a conglomerate of similar visual elements, I am never confident about where to focus. In this pic the best focus is not on the flower in the center but on several others further away, in particular one to the left. When I look at it now I question how viewers will see it. It's sort of like a landscape where the
...Show more

Pretty Petunias!

I think this is personal to each individuals taste! Me personally, I prefer to have any blur in this kind of photo at the back and not the front. Try cropping it different ways to see what you are the most comfortable with.




Jul 03, 2026 at 03:58 PM
jimmuller
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p.1 #3 · Technical question about a photo and its style


grandmas wrote:
I prefer to have any blur in this kind of photo at the back and not the front. Try cropping it different ways to see what you are the most comfortable with.


For this kind of picture there must necessarily be OOF material in front as well as elsewhere. I was specifically asking about whether the best focus should be centered, i.e. top to bottom or left to right, not front to back. And if I cropped it it would be a different picture.

BTW, this content is SOOC then shrunk for display. I'm asking about how I should focus it at shooting time, not about cropping in post-editing. Those of us who shot slides as I did for 50+ years learned the mindset that "You got what you shot". But you gots to shot it right first. So I'm asking for thoughts on how I might manipulate the lens to get a proper image. It's about artistic judgment as to whether it works this way or that.



Jul 03, 2026 at 04:47 PM
grandmas
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p.1 #4 · Technical question about a photo and its style


jimmuller wrote:
For this kind of picture there must necessarily be OOF material in front as well as elsewhere. I was specifically asking about whether the best focus should be centered, i.e. top to bottom or left to right, not front to back. And if I cropped it it would be a different picture.

BTW, this content is SOOC then shrunk for display. I'm asking about how I should focus it at shooting time, not about cropping in post-editing. Those of us who shot slides as I did for 50+ years learned the mindset that "You got what you shot". But you gots
...Show more

Ok, I think I now understand your question. You are not interested in making a good image, as much as you are interested in making the best image using very specific equipment. When you have to have this amount of blur in this type of image I don't think it matters where you focus. I would consider using the lens for other things.





Jul 03, 2026 at 06:30 PM
Shasoc
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p.1 #5 · Technical question about a photo and its style


That is a very hard question, Jim, and that is a very difficult picture to take and compose.

As you said It's all about what I want the picture to be, and I don't think it is completely clear to me what you want this picture to be. Anyway, here are some general suggestions for you to consider for the picture you have in mind.

I would avoid a centered Focus Point unless you are looking for a static composition.

If you want to create a more dynamic composition you can choose, like you did, a focus point away from the center of the image (higher in your case).
I believe a focus point lower in the frame would work better. The reason why it is better to choose a focus point closer to the bottom edge is because the DOF behind the Focus Point drops slower than the one in front.
The way I receive your image is with that blurred foreground feeling a bit heavy, more like an obstruction, making hard for me to “enter” your photo. My eyes have to travel through a larger area of blurry flowers before finding a sharp area.

One problem that makes difficult to compose this image IMO is that there is not a “prominent” flower (possibly facing the camera) to use as an anchor point.

As I said, not an easy photo to compose as it is. My suggestion would be next time to try choosing a focus point closer to the bottom edge, possibly on a good anchor point, and see how you feel about it. I believe it will make your image more inviting.
However, the choice of a focus point in a photo rests only with the photog in relation to what s/he want the photo to be.

I am not familiar with the lens you used and I cannot give you any tech suggestion on a better use of that lens.

Socrate



Jul 03, 2026 at 10:34 PM
jimmuller
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p.1 #6 · Technical question about a photo and its style


Socrate, thanks for the reply. It has a few interesting suggestions of things to consider.



Jul 04, 2026 at 04:26 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #7 · Technical question about a photo and its style


Shasoc wrote:
However, the choice of a focus point in a photo rests only with the photog in relation to what s/he want the photo to be.




Hey Jim,

The point of focus vs. the points of non-focus present, as GMA uses the term ... a focal point. The decision about the location of the focal point relative to the non-focal points can be viewed as a half-empty vs. half-full perspective, going along with Socrate's point, regarding decisions to be made by the photographer.

I say that in terms of there are various aspects of composition that afford the viewer "stop's" and "go's". Focus plane is one of the stops, and the rate of transition into / out of it can vary from gentle and slow to hard and fast. Horizontal lines vs. parallel or converging / diverging lines offer different aspects of "stop" vs. "go", as well. GMA / Socrate's mention of text as a "stop" is yet another example.

I mention this in consideration of the decision that you have (per Socrate) regarding where are you going to place your "stop" (focal plane) vs. your "go" (transition into vs. transition away from). Long way of saying, do you want the viewer to "walk into" the plane of focus vs. "walk out of" the plane of focus. Your placement (near, mid, far) will yield a shift in that RELATIONSHIP of "stop" vs. "go" in spatial perspective. This will be not only in terms of sequence, but also in terms of magnitude of balance (i.e. now much in front vs. behind ... coming into, remaining to depart from).

So, with that in mind ... it begs the question of intent. What is your intent of mood / emotive response that you want the viewer to discern (or feel like) when they engage your image. What is the goal of how you want the viewer to react / respond to the presence of the image.

If your answer is I want the to feel like they have arrived at the destination of the flower(s), that can be different from wanting them to feel like they are at a point in their journey, and have vastly more ahead of them remaining. Recognizing how the "stop" and go" aspect of the elements play with one another is a keen aspect for consideration, relative to your goals for the image. It isn't a "which is better", it is a which conveys your desire to the viewer more significantly. Which of course is predicated upon your intent. Spatial intent is part of the compositional decisions we have to make, so it is keen to recognize which elements / attributes are in play for us to work with.

The focal plane is but one of those elements. Here, the organic nature of the image presents a limited variety of such elements, and may (at first blush) seem to be that we only have point of focus as our only attribute for consideration. However, we also have our PP decisions in play regarding the tone / mood that accompanies the "stop" and "go" aspects. Saturation levels can influence this emotive as well as infer spatial distance perceptions, as can contrast levels. These decisions also are part of alignment with not only the spatial effects of the chosen focal plane, but also our decisions about influence on the impact on the viewer. So, here again ... alignment (harmony vs. incongruity) is predicated on awareness / knowledge of one's desired intent.

A bit long, but the "which is better" or "what should I do" ... is a matter that is rooted in "what do desire to achieve". Until you answer that question (insert telephone game, more on that in a bit), you're in spaghetti territory to try things and see what sticks. Answer your goals / intent first (in detail) and it then offers you insight into how your "stop" and "go" elements can be used to achieve that your goal / intent.

More to follow, but curious to hear your desire / intent / goal for the influence on the viewer ... experiential / spatial relationship / movement vs. information alone, kind of thing. What do you want the viewer to get out of it. Here is a bunch of flowers vs. something more than that, alone?


If a picture is a but a thousand words (non-verbal vs. verbal) communication, and "tells a story", then knowing what that story is in words, gives us the clues and cues on how to use our non-verbal tools of communication to convey the story. But first, we have to know what the story is that we desire to tell, before we can craft it the way we want it to be (non-verbally).

Tell me a story, paint the scene ... with words ... that you want the viewer to hear (see / feel). From that, the decision for where to land your focal plane might become revealed.

HTH




Jul 05, 2026 at 08:46 AM
grandmas
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p.1 #8 · Technical question about a photo and its style


Focal point: the concentration of attention or energy on something

A camera's focus point is a specific area in your frame that the camera's autofocus (AF) system uses to make your subject sharp, or with a manual lens it is what the shooter focuses on.



Jul 05, 2026 at 04:51 PM
jimmuller
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p.1 #9 · Technical question about a photo and its style


RustyBug wrote:
More to follow, but curious to hear your desire / intent / goal for the influence on the viewer ... experiential / spatial relationship / movement vs. information alone, kind of thing. What do you want the viewer to get out of it.


Wow. It's almost TLDR but I read it to pay you respect for taking the time to write it out!

What I wanted in that purple flower pic was to make the viewer feel like he/she was immersed, which is to say, surrounded, by those purple flowers. As I wrote earlier, it's like a viewer seeing a gorgeous landscape and being enveloped by its magnitude. (With some landscapes is it very hard to capture the sense of the surrounding space. I'm not good at that.)

To me it's an intuitive issue, not one dissected into start-stop-go-eye-movement behavior. It can make a viewer feel immersed in the flower field (even though it is just one large pot) but still make the viewer think the photographer (i.e. I) missed the focus. Shucks, a critical viewer might think that even if (which in this case is true) the photographer chose to focus it that way. Which is to say, it's just a bad choice, a bad experiment, regardless of all that other move-the-eye-around-start-stop-whatever stuff. Or like the bridge picture, an experiment that is too outside of what viewers might expect.

All of which is to say I appreciate what you wrote and must think about it, but it feels rather academic for an organic process like taking that sort of picture.



Jul 05, 2026 at 05:16 PM
 


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RustyBug
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p.1 #10 · Technical question about a photo and its style


jimmuller wrote:
Wow. It's almost TLDR but I read it to pay you respect for taking the time to write it out!

What I wanted in that purple flower pic was to make the viewer feel like he/she was immersed, which is to say, surrounded, by those purple flowers. As I wrote earlier, it's like a viewer seeing a gorgeous landscape and being enveloped by its magnitude. (With some landscapes is it very hard to capture the sense of the surrounding space. I'm not good at that.)

To me it's an intuitive issue, not one dissected into start-stop-go-eye-movement behavior. It can make a viewer
...Show more

I hear ya ... but, you did ask for a "technical" perspective.



Jul 05, 2026 at 05:18 PM
Camperjim
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p.1 #11 · Technical question about a photo and its style


jimmuller wrote:
........

What I wanted in that purple flower pic was to make the viewer feel like he/she was immersed, which is to say, surrounded, by those purple flowers........


The blurry approach did not work to enhance your intent! Maybe the blurry vignette helps to hold the viewer's eye towards the center of the image but it does nothing I can see or feel to enhance that immersion effect. What you have given us is a picture of some pretty flowers with very little else.

So what could you have done to further your intent? Here are some "compositional" approaches that might have helped:
Get closer and shoot with a wide angle perspective. Low and close is a common technique that might help.
Fill the field with flowers. You have instead shown a clump of flowers with a substantial plain green area behind.
If you like the effect, you can use DOF with the foreground in focus and the background not.
You could incorporate leading line to create a sense of perspective and depth.
Use foreground anchoring with a defined foreground focal point that is sharper, higher saturation, and higher contrast than the background.
There are a great many techniques that have been used over the centuries by painters to create a sense of depth which might enhance that feeling of depth you are striving to attain. I cannot see where you have used any of them.

Next consider the DOF. You claimed that having a substantial part of the image out of focus is a necessity. Not really. Focus stacking has become easier than ever with modern cameras. You also had the option of shooting with a small aperture to improve the DOF. Next time try f/20.

Finally, I suggest you rethink the idea that composition is an "intuitive" issue. That approach did not work for you. What works is to understand and use the compositional techniques to the point that they become tools you automatically use to achieve your artistic goals. You might want to start by learning something about composition rather than intuiting. If you want to consider a more analytical approach, there are again a great many techniques that you could have considered for this image.





Jul 06, 2026 at 05:12 AM
jimmuller
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p.1 #12 · Technical question about a photo and its style


I asked a simple question.

I'm standing there, camera to eye and fingers on the focus ring, minimal space to move around, my sweetie waiting for me, no intent to make an enduring piece of art to sell or hang in a museum. I need to make a decision right then. End of story. Whether it's a bad choice is in the eye of the viewer. What else I could change is not under consideration at that time. I simply asked for the viewer's reaction to that one choice.

As for composition being intuitive, I could have followed all those suggestions and still ended up with aesthetic pablum. Application of compositional techniques will not make it better. Regardless, at that time and place I have to work within the parameters I am given and it has to feel right.



Jul 06, 2026 at 06:56 AM
Camperjim
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p.1 #13 · Technical question about a photo and its style


jimmuller wrote:
I asked a simple question.
.......I simply asked for the viewer's reaction to that one choice.
.........


And I gave you my reaction. It seems like a snapshot without any success in your goal of making the viewer feel immersed in the scene. Since this is a critique forum it also seems reasonable to explain why and what could have been done better. It seems I wasted my words because you are not interested.




Jul 06, 2026 at 07:44 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #14 · Technical question about a photo and its style


jimmuller wrote:
Comments, recommendations, anyone?


Jim kinda did provide to this ^ ... and he was specific to the matter of the "immersion" intent mentioned in the follow-up post (#9).



Sometimes folks confuse critique (i.e. critical analysis) with an expectation of validation or emotional response (i.e. I liked it / didn't like it). Jim's response was in the realm of critical (depth of understanding) analysis. Also, critical analysis is deep analysis ... not to infer being "anti" (as some think critical means being mean, etc.).

Cybercomms can be a tough gig sometimes. Jim was essentially providing what was requested, from his purview.

Fred's grouping of the Photo Critique forum is in with the WA and MA ... meaning, that these are intended to be growth forums for our membership. So, when Jim (et al) presents principles, etc. ... (rather than I like it / don't like it), it is in the spirit of fostering membership understanding. That can be directly for the OP or thread participants, but also for the broader audience (i.e. lurkers). Sometimes folks can feel like we "missed the mark" ... but, when Jim (et al) proffer analytical depth, it's mission is to help foster understanding.

Even if folks don't readily embrace it at first blush, it is there for the benefit of consideration. Use it or lose it ... that's everybody's option / personal decision of what to do with the insights provided by fellow members.




Jul 06, 2026 at 07:48 AM
jimmuller
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p.1 #15 · Technical question about a photo and its style


Camperjim wrote:
And I gave you my reaction. It seems like a snapshot without any success in your goal of making the viewer feel immersed in the scene. Since this is a critique forum it also seems reasonable to explain why and what could have been done better. It seems I wasted my words because you are not interested.


It is a snapshot of sorts. Most of my pics are things I see and think "that's a view/sight/thing rarely or never seen by most people". They are not composed so much as stumbled upon, often while walking through woods. But even such shots have to meet minimal technical standards, hence hand on the focus ring. With AF it would be a different decision but still a conscious choice. It's a decision I face every so often. 50+ years of 35mm photography, mostly slides and therefore SOOC, have taught me to consider experimentation but question whether unconventional technique worked. So I asked whether my focus choice worked.

I can't tell if you answered that but you told me a lot of things I could and in your opinion should have done differently, said I needed to take photography courses to learn technique, told me what lens I should have used and how far away I should have stood, how a different background would have helped. etc. IOW, you told me how you would have done it. I could have done a lot of things differently. I can even now crop that pic to put the in-focus flower in the center.

But that isn't what I was asking.



Jul 06, 2026 at 09:29 AM
Camperjim
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p.1 #16 · Technical question about a photo and its style


jimmuller wrote:
IOW, you told me how you would have done it.



I did not. I gave you a very short list of compositional techniques that might have been useful in achieving your stated goal of making the viewer feel immersed in the scene. The vision is yours. The techniques you use would be personal as well, matching your goals and style.



Jul 06, 2026 at 11:52 AM
IndyFab
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p.1 #17 · Technical question about a photo and its style


jimmuller wrote:
Here is another composition question. I posted this picture in the Nikon/MFNG thread:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/55371118231_82d3e8c9ba_b.jpgPurple
by James Muller, on Flickr

As with all my photos, it was taken with a vintage MF F-mount lens on a Z5ii. With pics like this that are a conglomerate of similar visual elements, I am never confident about where to focus. In this pic the best focus is not on the flower in the center but on several others further away, in particular one to the left. When I look at it now I question how viewers will see it. It's sort of like a landscape where the
...Show more

I consider an image like this to be an eviromental capture with the main focus on the putunia thats in focus, it's all about what the photographer wants to portray to his audience or for himself from the capture



Jul 15, 2026 at 10:52 AM







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