fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell
1       2       3       …       19      
20
       end
   

New Leica SL3-P Rumors
  
 
1bwana1
Online
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.20 #1 · New Leica SL3-P Rumors


Nifty Fifty wrote:
Whenever I read the word "user experience," I burst out laughing. The marketing industry ought to thank the person who coined the term on bended knee several times a day for this stroke of genius.😅



Interesting view of things. It leaves me wondering if that applies just to cameras. It seems to me that user experience is one of the primary drivers of how consumers chose most things they buy when they have choices, discretion, and the purchasing power to do so.

How do you pick:

Which car you buy?

House you live in?

City?

Yes, if you have choice even Country?

Shoes?

Watch?

Hotel?

Cruise Line?

Airline (especially if you are a frequent business traveler. Think frequent flyer programs)

Restaurant?

Cosmetics?

Dentist?

Doctor?

Hospital?

Computer (Apple/PC) Apple was founded and succeeded on the very concept of user experience it was the reason for the GUI)

Cell Phone (Apple/Android)?

This list could go on and on covering almost every product category that exists. User experience is central to how almost all products are designed, operated, and presented to potential purchasers. This concept permeates the "C" Suit in almost every business I have ever known. User experience is real. It exists as a valid determinant in the camera industry. Leica focuses on it during product conceptualization, design, build, and ownership, as do all other brands of cameras I am aware of.

Why do you laugh at that?
Jul 08, 2026 at 01:37 AM
Nifty Fifty
Online
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.20 #2 · New Leica SL3-P Rumors




1bwana1 wrote:
Why do you laugh at that?
Because "user experience" is not a verifiable metric. What constitutes a brilliant "user experience" for you might be the exact opposite for me, and vice versa. It is something that can be neither proven nor disproven. It is entirely arbitrary and subjective—except for those susceptible to marketing.
Jul 08, 2026 at 02:02 AM
1bwana1
Online
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.20 #3 · New Leica SL3-P Rumors


Nifty Fifty wrote:
Because "user experience" is not a verifiable metric. What constitutes a brilliant "user experience" for you might be the exact opposite for me, and vice versa. It is something that can be neither proven nor disproven. It is entirely arbitrary and subjective—except for those susceptible to marketing.


I agree with everything you are saying except the "not a verifiable metric" and "for those susceptible to marketing" part. We are all susceptible to marketing. It is how we select most of the products we buy. You must realize that marketing departments are serious players in "engineering" and "design" meetings for pretty much all products. They help determine of which of the "what is possible features" are included because they are saleable. Pretty much every feature in your cameras was signed off on by the marketing department. They are in the product because the marketing department felt they should be.

I am currently a principle in a project where we are investing over $300 Million in development costs. You can bet that the marketing people have a dominant role in almost all decisions. Also true with my wife's almost 1 Billion a year beauty business (yes she runs a company almost twice the size of Leica). Marketing is key in all decisions. In fact the spare bedrooms our home here in Italy is currently full of Marketing staff visiting for meetings here at the corporate campus. My Wife is well known in industry for concepts around this. Her book on the subject is very well respected. https://whipfiremoney.com/ Yes, I believe in the value of marketing for both companies and the consumer. It is how the two are best brought together.

Companies spend a huge amount of effort and money verifying and understanding the markets and user experience. I think "understanding" is as close as we can come to "verifiable" in many such things. Our "understanding" is then "verified" by sales data. They collect and analyse immense amounts of date doing this. That is what all the feedback, surveys, and customer satisfaction efforts are all about. What to you think marketing departments do, just make stuff up?

How do you make your purchasing decisions. I am assuming that you, like the rest of us are "susceptible to marketing"? That is not intended to be a dig...
Jul 08, 2026 at 02:57 AM
Nifty Fifty
Online
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.20 #4 · New Leica SL3-P Rumors




1bwana1 wrote:
How do you make your purchasing decisions. I am assuming that you, like the rest of us are "susceptible to marketing"? That is not intended to be a dig...
I am largely immune to marketing and possess excellent impulse control. Few people on this forum will understand this, but I am not someone who enjoys consuming; for me, it is a necessary evil—nothing more. If I am satisfied with something, that is perfectly sufficient for me. Otherwise, I always make decisions based on my own genuine needs and preferences. Marketing claims play absolutely no role in this—not in the slightest. Frankly, I don't even look at that sort of stuff anymore. Leica M advertising is an exception, though, because it makes me laugh heartily. For me personally, this type of advertising achieves the exact opposite of what it intends. However, since I am merely the exception to the rule, there is no need for anyone to take issue with it.😊
Jul 08, 2026 at 03:30 AM
1bwana1
Online
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.20 #5 · New Leica SL3-P Rumors


Nifty Fifty wrote:
I am largely immune to marketing and possess excellent impulse control. Few people on this forum will understand this, but I am not someone who enjoys consuming; for me, it is a necessary evil—nothing more. If I am satisfied with something, that is perfectly sufficient for me. Otherwise, I always make decisions based on my own genuine needs and preferences. Marketing claims play absolutely no role in this—not in the slightest. Frankly, I don't even look at that sort of stuff anymore. Leica M advertising is an exception, though, because it makes me laugh heartily. For me personally, this...Show more →


Congratulations. I do understand the keeping consuming to a minimum. To a large extent this is also how I feel. On a personal level I try to keep the things I have simple and on the less side as well.

But I am wondering how you decide to buy something you have not had extensive long term use of prior to the purchase? How do you know in advance that you will be satisfied with what you do buy?

Out of curiosity when you were forced to switch to digital, how did you decide on buying the Sony A7R IV. I think it is a great choice by the way. I very much enjoy my Sony equipment too.
Jul 08, 2026 at 03:48 AM
Nifty Fifty
Online
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.20 #6 · New Leica SL3-P Rumors




1bwana1 wrote:
Out of curiosity when you were forced to switch to digital, how did you decide on buying the Sony A7R IV. I think it is a great choice by the way. I very much enjoy my Sony equipment too.

Of course, you never know how satisfied you’ll be with something until you’ve actually tried it out. That applies regardless of whether or not you consume marketing material. In any case, when I had to switch to digital, I didn’t choose Sony because I had any particular affinity for the brand or what it stands for. I wasn’t interested in megapixels (24 would have been enough), nor a super-duper autofocus (I’d never liked AF), nor high frame rates (I’d never used continuous shooting). What mattered to me was: a design that was as classic as possible (not overly rounded off, with the lens mount centered rather than shifted toward the edge), full-frame, compact, handy and lightweight, a good EVF, a screen that tilts for both landscape and portrait orientations, the availability of a "normal" lens that was as small, light, and fast as possible—with beautiful rendering—a reasonable price, and (crucially!) a high level of customizability to ensure straightforward operation. Taking these factors and various in-store comparisons into account, I chose the A7 IV and the CV Nokton 50mm f/1.2 SE, even though I found the Nikon viewfinders significantly better. You might think I’d be a typical candidate for a Leica M—and I do find those cameras truly stylish and desirable—BUT I’ve never really been the rangefinder type (I find the mechanism fascinating and fun to play with, but for actual shooting, I prefer a viewfinder that shows the actual framing and depth of field); plus, I like gear that just works. If the EV1 had existed back then, who knows—I might have been tempted—but I think the price-to-performance ratio would still have put me off. After all, I didn’t even know if I’d manage to get the hang of this digital stuff. In hindsight, it was fortunate that the EV1 didn't exist yet, because I quickly realized that using manual focus while squinting at an EVF can be quite exhausting. Modern AF-C systems offer definite advantages—they are a thousand times better and more practical than the AF systems of the analog era, which I never liked. That’s why I now own a few 50mm AF lenses, though—unfortunately—each one has its pros and cons. Long story short: the camera isn't anything special, but all things considered, it suits me best. And I couldn't care less what brand name is on it, as long as functionality and reliability are guaranteed.
Jul 08, 2026 at 04:44 AM
1bwana1
Online
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.20 #7 · New Leica SL3-P Rumors


Nifty Fifty wrote:
Of course, you never know how satisfied you’ll be with something until you’ve actually tried it out. That applies regardless of whether or not you consume marketing material. In any case, when I had to switch to digital, I didn’t choose Sony because I had any particular affinity for the brand or what it stands for. I wasn’t interested in megapixels (24 would have been enough), nor a super-duper autofocus (I’d never liked AF), nor high frame rates (I’d never used continuous shooting). What mattered to me was: a design that was as classic as possible (not overly rounded...Show more →


Glad to hear that your choice worked out well for you. I hope it continues to bring you many years of enjoyable photography.
Jul 08, 2026 at 05:19 AM
RustyBug
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.20 #8 · New Leica SL3-P Rumors


Nifty Fifty wrote:
It is entirely arbitrary and subjective—except for those susceptible to marketing.


Ummm, no.



User experience may be a metric that is attempted to be captured via metrics from collected feedback, etc. ... but, user experience is not predicated on marketing. You have it backwards. User feedback is the driver of change, and then it may get incorporated into marketing, to share that perspective with others.

I'll certainly give you that user experience is subjective ... it is. My user is experience with Sony (for instance) is YUCK !!! every time I picked one up. Folks would tell me repeatedly how great / wonderful Sony mirrorless is. My user experience with their A900 DSLR body was very nice. With their mirrorless bodies, yuck (for my hands). My experience with their mirrorless AF system (not so yuck) was that it is differentiated from Leica.


But, it is NOT arbitrary, nor marketing materials driven. The decision for Leica to place reference marks on their diopter adjustment is not anywhere to be found in marketing materials that I'm aware of. BUT, the user experience of dialing in a large, referenced adjustment, that surrounds the eyepiece is vastly different experience than fiddling with a tiny little, unmarked wheel, unreferenced, on the side of the housing. Two very DIFFERENT user experiences.

The engineering and design decisions that went in to each company's approach for diopter adjustment, are NOT arbitrary. The experience of each is NOT arbitrary, NOR the same. The user experience IS Subjective to whether or not it has any benefit to them or not. In certain regard, it might seem that this decision has a demographic element to it ... i.e. which users might be considered with diopter adjustability, vs. those who have little regard for it (and may have been derived from customer feedback, etc.).

Some folks have zero need for it at all, and will never recognize the difference between the Panny experience vs. the Leica experience in this area of diopter adjustment. But, to suggest that user experience is merely a marketing ploy for which unguarded folks are susceptible to ... no, not only no ... but, NO. My user experience with the diopter adjustments have absolutely ZERO to do with marketing. I'm not even sure if any marketing even exists regarding this engineering / design / HMI aspect.

Ironically (although, likely not in Leica's case), the viewfinder experience in photography is a key starting point to our use. It seems (imo) that Leica gave considerable credence to this adjustment point, whereas Panny it seems it is a mere afterthought. That (imo) is a very different user experience, and while there are things I like about the Panny (control ring around the shutter), those experience aspects are NOT based on marketing. Does Leica use the point that many of their customers like the difference in HMI user experience ... sure, why not.

Ummm, Apple products spend a great deal of attention to this also. That doesn't mean everybody likes a Mac or iPhone. But, to suggest that the user experience (ThinkPad touch typing experience) is merely marketing ploys, is folly imo. Is user experience response subjective ... you bet. I prefer a ThinkPad keyboard to chiclet keys all day long. The fact that my MBP does NOT have separate backspace key vs. delete key ... different user experience. One aggravates me, the other does not. Two different user experiences. Again, subject as to amount of significance to a given user. But, that is NOT marketing. That is HMI engineering design choices. That stupid knife edge (MBP) vs. waterfall edge (TP) is another user experience difference. Sound quality of speakers (MBP vs. TP) is a different one.

So, if you are truly a touch typer, many touch typers prefer the TP. Does this get conveyed in marketing materials, sure why not. But, no matter whether or not it is mentioned in marketing materials, the user experience of a TP is different from an MBP ... at the HMI point. This is part of what Leica considers differently from others (HMI). I'm not saying it is better for all folks. YMMV. I am saying that user experience is not merely a marketing ploy, even if it is mentioned in marketing materials.

I appreciate your point of being "immune" to marketing ploy. I also am one to look beyond marketing (better than the average bear) ... to a degree that is driven from my DNA of Form Follows Function, ethos. I want to know how it works for me. Marketing may give me a degree of curiosity, but I'm not making my decision based on the marketing ... to your point about couldn't care less / agnostic to it. But, user experience (while subjective) is not merely a marketing ploy (imo). Marketing is powerful, and I appreciate the effort to be on guard / dismissive of its impact, but again user experience is not merely marketing.


Which BTW, this very thing of diopter adjustment is but one evidence that the Leica is NOT a simple rebranding of the Panny. Rather, it is a different HMI.
Jul 08, 2026 at 06:17 AM
RustyBug
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.20 #9 · New Leica SL3-P Rumors


rscheffler wrote:
Whether it's Leica or Canikony, if the other party hasn't used the equipment being discussed or has at least a baseline similar point of reference, they're probably going to be talking past one another.

Aperture rings. It's funny. On the M system, aperture rings on the lenses feel perfectly normal and expected. It's the way the system works. I'm not an SL system user, but I've used Canon since the FD days. FD lenses had aperture rings. EF didn't. I didn't care that the aperture ring disappeared because it was faster and easier to change the aperture setting by turning...Show more →

Yeah, I was just a bit surprised to hear Richard advocate for the Leica experience ... after years of DPR not really giving it much credence.
Jul 08, 2026 at 06:41 AM
stgrove
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.20 #10 · New Leica SL3-P Rumors


The only thing I remember liking about the S1RII over my SL3 or SL3-S was the LCD which can be swiveled so that the user looking at the back of the LCD sees no info display or brightness and if someone wants to look at your image results from afar there is nothing for them to see.

P.S.-My eyesight is so bad that once I set the diopter it will not be changed again until I acquire a new set of glasses.

Edited on Jul 08, 2026 at 09:51 AM · View previous versions
Jul 08, 2026 at 08:51 AM
 


Search in Used Dept. 

highdesertmesa
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.20 #11 · New Leica SL3-P Rumors


Nifty Fifty wrote:
I am largely immune to marketing and possess excellent impulse control. Few people on this forum will understand this...



I think we understand you just fine.
Jul 08, 2026 at 08:59 AM
1bwana1
Online
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.20 #12 · New Leica SL3-P Rumors




Nifty Fifty wrote:
Of course, you never know how satisfied you’ll be with something until you’ve actually tried it out. That applies regardless of whether or not you consume marketing material. In any case, when I had to switch to digital, I didn’t choose Sony because I had any particular affinity for the brand or what it stands for. I wasn’t interested in megapixels (24 would have been enough), nor a super-duper autofocus (I’d never liked AF), nor high frame rates (I’d never used continuous shooting). What mattered to me was: a design that was as classic as possible (not overly rounded...Show more →

Interesting that the Leica EV1 the camera you say you might be interested in from Leica only exist because of customer feedback to the marketing people.



Jul 08, 2026 at 10:00 AM
Nifty Fifty
Online
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.20 #13 · New Leica SL3-P Rumors



1bwana1 wrote:
Interesting that the Leica EV1 the camera you say you might be interested in from Leica only exist because of customer feedback to the marketing people.

How did you come to that conclusion? According to Kaufmann, whom you usually refer to so often, the exact opposite was true. He claims that Leica customers practically have to be forced to be happy, because otherwise they would reject any innovation (see video from 30:24 min). He quotes Henry Ford: "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.". Ironically, I even believe him when he says that the camera wasn't designed according to customer requests, because then there would definitely have been better adjustment aids.😉

?t=1824&is=Ycoo_OXjzrrV8JTs
Jul 08, 2026 at 10:41 AM
SrMi
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.20 #14 · New Leica SL3-P Rumors




1bwana1 wrote:
Interesting that the Leica EV1 the camera you say you might be interested in from Leica only exist because of customer feedback to the marketing people.


https://www.macfilos.com/2025/10/23/leica-m-ev1-stefan-daniel-on-the-background-to-leicas-latest-and-most-radical-m-camera-model/

Excerpt
... the Leica M11 was conceptualised so that a version with EVF would be feasible some day. A couple of years later, at the LSI meeting in Dublin, Ireland, I was grilled by many attendees, all asking for an EVF-equipped camera based on an M camera body, capable of utilising M lenses. I came back to Wetzlar and relaunched the initiative to bring this to life, and our decision-making was further aided by the Leica User Forum (LUF) and Leica Society International (LSI) through surveys and inputs.

However, the Leica M11 architecture had been laid out to accommodate an EVF at some point, but it wasn’t followed up.



Jul 08, 2026 at 10:51 AM
Nifty Fifty
Online
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.20 #15 · New Leica SL3-P Rumors


Everything you need to know about the Kaufmann's tales from *One Thousand and One Nights*.😅


Jul 08, 2026 at 11:11 AM
1bwana1
Online
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.20 #16 · New Leica SL3-P Rumors


Nifty Fifty wrote:
How did you come to that conclusion? According to Kaufmann, whom you usually refer to so often, the exact opposite was true. He claims that Leica customers practically have to be forced to be happy, because otherwise they would reject any innovation (see video from 30:24 min). He quotes Henry Ford: "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.". Ironically, I even believe him when he says that the camera wasn't designed according to customer requests, because then there would definitely have been better adjustment aids.😉

Actually in this case Leica got a lot of unsolicited requests for this camera. Kaufman said this explicitly in that interview. So many in fact that they sent out a large survey to see how much interest there was in such a camera in the existing user base. I, and many others here on FM participated in this survey. The survey was a project of the marketing group at Leica. The response was strong enough to green light the project to actually produce the EV-1. The M EV-1 is a further test of the market acceptability for this camera. From what I have heard is is enough to continue developing this line. But, leica marketing is making a committed effort to position this as a new line so it doesn't threaten the traditionalist M group. All of this is driven by marketing, which was confirmed by Kaufmann in he interview you quoted here.

What Kaufmann is referring to is the large number of existing user base that is resistant to any sort of changes to the M line of cameras. They want them to be as much like the old analog Ms as possible. Leica accommodates them with cameras like the M11-D. Leica also just did a survey about the removable bottom plate be removed on the M11 generation. They got a lot of feedback regarding this. The traditionalists are a very vocal group. The good news is that the removable bottom plate is not coming back for the main line Ms. But special editions may be produced for the traditionalists. All of these decisions are driven by the Leica marketing group, not engineering.
Jul 08, 2026 at 11:47 AM
Nifty Fifty
Online
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.20 #17 · New Leica SL3-P Rumors


In the interview I linked to, Kaufmann answered a question that explicitly referred to the EVF. In that sense, he said one thing here and another there.🤷🏻


Jul 08, 2026 at 12:05 PM
SrMi
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.20 #18 · New Leica SL3-P Rumors


Nifty Fifty wrote:
In the interview I linked to, Kaufmann answered a question that explicitly referred to the EVF. In that sense, he said one thing here and another there.🤷🏻

Where is the "there?" My link and quote came from Stefan Daniel, the "Mr. M."
Jul 08, 2026 at 12:25 PM
SlowDriver
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.20 #19 · New Leica SL3-P Rumors


1bwana1 wrote:
But, leica marketing is making a committed effort to position this as a new line so it doesn't threaten the traditionalist M group.

Really? It has M in its name and from the Leica product page:

"With focus assist, the Leica M EV1 offers a seamless entry into the world of M photography."

To me it seems like Leica does everything it can to associate the camera with the M system...
Jul 08, 2026 at 12:41 PM
1       2       3       …       19      
20
       end
FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3       …       19      
20
       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account
Reset passwordNo account? Register