samuelphoto wrote:
So, what does Leica do next to cause us to continue to empty our pockets?
I expect a M12 to be released which will be similar to the M11 but having some kind of IBIS implemented.
I wish Leica brought the traditional bottom plate back in the M12, but it is unlikely since manufacturing cost for a M camera without bottom plate is cheaper.
samuelphoto wrote:
I'm quite satisfied with my Q3 28. I feel that, with current smaller format offerings reaching the 40-60 megapixel range, we've hit the point of diminishing returns. If you were like me and suffered through the tortuous early days of digital cameras, what we can get now is just amazing by comparison. At this point, I do not need more resolution and definitely don't need bigger files, so I anticipate my Q3 will last me for quite some time, maybe for good. I can imagine others feel the same way with the M10/11. So, what does Leica do next to cause us to continue to empty our pockets?...Show more →
Frankly, for the near future I will not empty my pockets for Leica gear since I now prefer to empty my pockets for Hasselblad gear.
retrofocus wrote:
I expect a M12 to be released which will be similar to the M11 but having some kind of IBIS implemented.
I wish Leica brought the traditional bottom plate back in the M12, but it is unlikely since manufacturing cost for a M camera without bottom plate is cheaper.
I expect the M12 to be a significant upgrade/revision of current models. There may be a lot to consider on its release...
Agree. I forget triple resolution that I also used daily.
For M12, IBIS will be a nice to have. I will take it for travel more often than now if that is the case.
flash wrote:
The shutter could be *fixed* easily with the addition of EFCS. And it's be even faster and quieter. It never bothered me. I adapted very quickly to the extra 1/125th of a second needed.
I didn't actually like the colours of the M10 or M10R as much as the M11. I don't like the short battery life. I miss exactly one thing.
The thumb rest on the M10-D. It worked great and it looked great. If Leica weren't so greedy we could have better looking digital M's with improved ergonomics.
Other than that my M11's have been superior in every way. I have a choice of resolution. The base plate, which I thought I'd miss, is wildly better with USB charging and easily removed batteries. Internal memory for the win.
I'd sacrifice the rear screen for an IBIS unit in the M12-D. But that's about it.
And Mr Overgaard should be wiped from the internet. Forever.
I totally recommend the M11 now, though it definitely had a rough start. Leica addressed the early issues with freezing, premature failures, and that magenta tint I noticed the very first time I tried it. We were all essentially beta testers, but at least the M11 is stable now. I still don't love the shutter action, which is the main reason I stick with the M10-R for now. One thing the M11 got right was going back to the M240 battery size, which is a huge plus. As long as you are not using the EVF or other new features, the larger battery keeps rangefinder shooting going for a long time...though not quite as long as my M-D, whose battery seems to last forever.
1bwana1 wrote:
I expect the M12 to be a significant upgrade/revision of current models. There may be a lot to consider on its release...
All speculation at this point anyway - so you might be right. I don't expect a major upgrade for a simple reason: Leica wants to focus on incremental uptakes and not giving all at once - meaning more versions and camera generations can be sold for more with each version or generation.
Fred Miranda wrote:
I totally recommend the M11 now, though it definitely had a rough start. Leica addressed the early issues with freezing, premature failures, and that magenta tint I noticed the very first time I tried it. We were all essentially beta testers, but at least the M11 is stable now. I still don't love the shutter action, which is the main reason I stick with the M10-R for now. One thing the M11 got right was going back to the M240 battery size, which is a huge plus. As long as you are not using the EVF or other new features, the larger battery keeps rangefinder shooting going for a long time...though not quite as long as my M-D, whose battery seems to last forever....Show more →
The M11 is the perfect example of a post pandemic electronic device. Plagued as you correctly said with many faults in the beginning which were by now resolved over the course of multiple years after release.
I followed advice not to buy any sensor/electronic devices produced during or shortly after the pandemic. If you look on the market, this was generally an excellent advice. I held off buying a new car also for this reason - cars made in those years are now known for all kind of premature sensor failures due to lack of chips and cheaper part breakdowns. Lack of personnel and supply chain issues after the pandemic were other reason for some failures, too.
The M12 likely won't have the same kind of issues as the M11 uniquely had. The M EV-1 already seems to do quite well, too. We are back to more reliable manufacturing with electronics.
I just don't expect the M12 to be a huge step up from the M11. One main feature (IBIS?) might be added and some minor bells and whistles included, but this is likely about it.
And it will sell north of $9K. Might hit the five digit mark.
The M11 series is already selling around $11,000. In the USA. Thank tariffs for that? EU pre-tax price converted to USD is more like ~$9000.
M is roughly 4-5 year release cycle. If you look at M8, M9, M240, M10 and M11, they all are significant changes from the previous model. Especially sensor capabilities. M9 introduced what Leica previously stated was not possible - full frame. M240 massively improved the electronics and sensor. M10 improved body design and to some degree the sensor, but especially with the 'R' version. M11, again the sensor in respect to resolution and dynamic range.
Therefore I'm with Steve that in addition to overall refinements, the M12 will include some major 'tech' improvements to keep the ball rolling. What those will be...?
I don't expect IBIS unless Leica is able to figure out how to move most of the IBIS mechanism in line with and/or in front of the plane of focus. Gordon might be right that perhaps it would be possible by sacrificing the rear display. IBIS would also benefit from a faster processor, which in turn should be paired with a much faster sensor. Perhaps PD-based electronic focus confirmation in the OVF to back up the RF? A simplified version of what should be possible for the EV2. Whether or not each of us considers these as benefits is another matter. Lack of IBIS is definitely a reason I lean more towards my mirrorless system currently, especially for any situations where I know I will be working at marginal shutter speeds (around the 1:1 focal length range).
We'll see. I'm quite sure Leica will not do it but continuing the M line and adding a slightly bigger camera with an hybrid rangefinder, IBIS, a handgrip, i.e. a modern interpretation of the M would be interesting too.
Kind of "would exchange some of the 1954 M3 size against modern conveniences".
And as far as I'm dreaming, supporting a new range of AF lenses in such a camera would be nice. But I know I want a Leica M11, SL3 and CL all in one camera.
My impression is that Overgaard's choice of the M10 is based mostly on M11 reliability issues and secondarily ease-of-use/simplicity, though he speaks indirectly around both. Influencers don't bite the hands that feed them, but he is barking at it.
agree that the M11 issues have been resolved, including magenta coloring which is no longer an issue after the firmware update that allows for tweaking of RAW temperature and tint.
Yes the M10R is a fine camera, but for me I can't do without the electronic shutter allowing me to shoot f1.2 on a cloudless sunny day without having to mess around with ND filters.
In a M12, I couldn't care less about IBIS, more MP's (which in fact to me is a negative), supposed increases in dynamic range, etc. The only thing that would lift my skirt would be having both a traditional rangefinder plus EVF (with better resolution than the EV1). And even then I'm not sure I'd get it since my visoflex 2 does what I need for night shooting. In other words, my M11P and M11M are for me pretty much perfect.
Mar 15, 2026 at 06:55 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
taildraggin wrote:
My impression is that Overgaard's choice of the M10 is based mostly on M11 reliability issues and secondarily ease-of-use/simplicity, though he speaks indirectly around both. Influencers don't bite the hands that feed them, but he is barking at it.
I am not so sure he is barking at that hand that feeds him (i.e., Leica) and his message isn't totally approved by them. Keep in mind that Leica broke with previous practice and used a Sony sensor in the M11 series. They have also pretty much publicly announced that for the M12 they are going back to a European manufacturer and not using Sony for the sensor. Given the back and forth on sensor sourcing, I think playing up how nice the M10 series was could very well be seen even by Leica as in their interest.
What will the M12 be like? Well we kind of sort of know the source of the sensor and it won't be Sony so it will be a new sensor. I expect it to have faster sensor read out speed, which will be nice for using the electronic shutter that the camera will likely have, although it will still have a mechanical shutter. I also expect it to have more processing power, which will improve some of the operations of the camera. I also expect that it will have a bit less dynamic range (again emphasizing how nice the M10 was could serve Leica's interest here too), and stay around 60 MP, although a slight reduction to something like even 40 MP I think is possible.
Overall, I think there will be a couple steps forward and a couple steps back with the sensor, but if like me you liked the M10 you may very like the M12 over the M11, but people who really like the M11 may be annoyed by the steps backward and be disappointed with the M12.
Leica is certainly not asking me but I'm sure they're closely watching the M-EV1 sales figures to see if that is their future. Personally, if they could do an M-EV2 with:
* The 9.44M dot 120fps EVF from the latest Sony flagships (the current EV1 EVF is a joke)
* Nikon-style green light focus confirmation and ideally their subject detection for MF lenses
That would be fantastic and a likely buy from me. Even better if they could sneak IBIS into there but I would rather have no IBIS and a lightweight body.
"And Mr Overgaard should be wiped from the internet. Forever."
Very, very long-winded, meandering and tedious in the extreme. Combined with a sort of preening self love and a desire to gouge his gullible followers for all they are worth makes him a complete no go for me.
Leica M before was a TRULY unique camera in todays auto everything gadget heavy digital camera world. It was a realy alrenative to everything else out there. Especially with cameras like the Monochrom and the M-D. I guess what I don't get is why everyone wants Leica to make the M like everthing else out there? I bought Leica because it's not like those other cameras. It's great to have a real choice.
airfrogusmc wrote:
I bought Leica because it's not like those other cameras. It's great to have a real choice.
Having more choice to use our M-mount lens as long as we keep the classic M and its variants is not "wanting to make it like everything else".
The M is my primary camera but sometimes I need AF, Ibis, etc. Being able to use only one system and keeping it small (unlike the SL) would be great.
But those are already out there and being produced by companies that have been excelling in those things for decades. The M as always been for those of us that don't want or need those things. They sholuld leave the M alone for those like us can still have that choice.
All the other new high tech alternative models released since the M11 should allow Leica to take the M series back to being a "digital M3".
Steve Spencer wrote
I am not so sure he is barking at that hand that feeds him (i.e., Leica) and his message isn't totally approved by them. Keep in mind that Leica broke with previous practice and used a Sony sensor in the M11 series. They have also pretty much publicly announced that for the M12 they are going back to a European manufacturer and not using Sony for the sensor. Given the back and forth on sensor sourcing, I think playing up how nice the M10 series was could very well be seen even by Leica as in their interest.
What will the M12 be like? Well we kind of sort of know the source of the sensor and it won't be Sony so it will be a new sensor. I expect it to have faster sensor read out speed, which will be nice for using the electronic shutter that the camera will likely have, although it will still have a mechanical shutter. I also expect it to have more processing power, which will improve some of the operations of the camera. I also expect that it will have a bit less dynamic range (again emphasizing how nice the M10 was could serve Leica's interest here too), and stay around 60 MP, although a slight reduction to something like even 40 MP I think is possible.
Overall, I think there will be a couple steps forward and a couple steps back with the sensor, but if like me you liked the M10 you may very like the M12 over the M11, but people who really like the M11 may be annoyed by the steps backward and be disappointed with the M12....Show more →
airfrogusmc wrote:
Leica M before was a TRULY unique camera in todays auto everything gadget heavy digital camera world. It was a realy alrenative to everything else out there. Especially with cameras like the Monochrom and the M-D. I guess what I don't get is why everyone wants Leica to make the M like everthing else out there? I bought Leica because it's not like those other cameras. It's great to have a real choice.
I guess I am in favor of those improvements that provide measurable, real improvements in Image Quality.
IBIS is absolutely one of those things. In many cases, it is the equivalent of having higher dynamic range in the sensor.
The same with a faster processor and sensor. In some situations this provides the ability to shoot fully electronic shutter meaning less vibration, and silent shooting when that is an advantage.
Faster processor and sensor also mean faster boot/wake up times resulting in less missed shots and longer effective battery life.
These are real and measurable advantages. They are also things that should add zero extra complications to your workflow. In fact they should be all but invisible changes to shooting with the benefits only affecting improved IQ. Only positives What are the negatives except a departure from tradition. Sort of like the useless bottom plate that is only a nod to by gone days. Useless.
The improvements to the Visoflex experience from IBIS and Faster sensor/processor are completely optional. They are invisible, and have zero impact on those choosing to use one. Leave it off and no effect on the traditional workflow.
I am against anything that lowers the Range Finder experience and workflow.
What makes Leica M special are the glass, rendering, and color science. Also unique are construction materials, build quality, form factor, workflow. These are special and unique. None of my hoped for improvement affect any of those things.
Steve, I have no need for so called better IQ than my M 10 M can deleiver, My challenge is not the IQ but visual content.
I have no problem with Leica making other types of cameras. Even other types of Ms but they should respect what has made them different from the herd and what have brought photographers like me to the Leica tent. And what some see as improvements, some see as just the opposite.
One reason I love Leica M is they are true rangefinders and until recently have remained a true alternative to the herd.
