airfrogusmc wrote:
My dream Leica M would be a meterless (I have a a bunch of old meters) B&W no LCD, fully manual camera and the only thing that would need the battery is the sensor. A wind that would cock the shutter. That would be a dream digital Leica M for me. It will never happen but I can dream ha ha, For now my 2 M10s and my M 10 Mono are just fine.
I bet we could put a digital sensor setup in a Leica III or M3 and fulfill your dream. Heck, we wouldn't even be the first to do something like this. Maybe the first Leica...
rscheffler wrote:
To get around the M11 metering shutter clickity-clacking, they could give us a no metering, shutter closed option. I suggested this when the M11 was released. But seems unlikely to ever happen.
I mean, for me, I usually do a test shot or two at random times during an outing to confirm manual exposure via histogram, so I'd be totally fine with a no metering option. I barely rely on in-camera metering as it is now anyway. It would also seem to fit in with the Leica 'less is more' philosophy.
Given the rate of Leica inflation, I doubt I will be getting another M. But it's the internet, so I will still comment on future feature wants/needs.
Respectfully, IMO nothing that Steve requested takes away from using such a hypothetical camera as a purely rangefinder/OVF camera, which is the core of the M and Leica should not mess around with it. A faster sensor would actually enhance the RF/OVF experience by adding a usable silent e-shutter option that would seem, to me at least, be a potentially beneficial improvement. ...Show more →
I find the shutter on my M 10 Mono to be quiet enough. Nothing mentioned would have me move away from the M 10.
1bwana1 wrote:
I bet we could put a digital sensor setup in a Leica III or M3 and fulfill your dream. Heck, we wouldn't even be the first to do something like this. Maybe the first Leica...
Yes an M 3 with the sensor from my M 10 Mono would be perfect for me.
airfrogusmc wrote:
My dream Leica M would be a meterless (I have a a bunch of old meters) B&W no LCD, fully manual camera and the only thing that would need the battery is the sensor. A wind that would cock the shutter. That would be a dream digital Leica M for me. It will never happen but I can dream ha ha, For now my 2 M10s and my M 10 Mono are just fine.
I think you want to shoot film, it's OK to admit it! Film is trendy again. Break out your M2 (M6 if you need a meter) and your favorite roll of HP5!
Yes, the M10 is a Leica camera without a Sony sensor. And that's a plus, because my M11 renders similarly to all other Sony sensors, including the X2D. I'm not saying that's bad, it's just that we're all clones.
And I liked the M9 much more than the M10. My God, what a rendering! Yes, there are a ton of downsides, but with the right light and lens, it was divine. So, for me, the M10 comes after the M9.
M11”s my favorite Leica even with firmware issue a few years back. Sensor, battery, E shutter, no base plate, lightest black body, all tickle the box.
Only regression is shutter which should easily be solvable, just offer the option with in body off sensor light meter or during manual exposure, remove extra shutter movement.
Even ignore sensor DR and battery and base plate improvement, M11 m shutter + E shutter capability vs M10 m shutter, M11 win for me as for anything non moving or no artificial light, I always use E shutter, sharper, quieter, less wear to shutter.
I look forward to M12 improve shutter and I agree with Ron just use high speed stacked sensor from A1 or global shutter A9, even A75 or Z63, S1II approach will be good for me and a right direction to M.
Anything digital, I don’t have nostalgia at all. Whatever make IQ better, easier to use.
zhangyue wrote:
M11”s my favorite Leica even with firmware issue a few years back. Sensor, battery, E shutter, no base plate, lightest black body, all tickle the box.
Only regression is shutter which should easily be solvable, just offer the option with in body off sensor light meter or during manual exposure, remove extra shutter movement.
Even ignore sensor DR and battery and base plate improvement, M11 m shutter + E shutter capability vs M10 m shutter, M11 win for me as for anything non moving or no artificial light, I always use E shutter, sharper, quieter, less wear to shutter.
I look forward to M12 improve shutter and I agree with Ron just use high speed stacked sensor from A1 or global shutter A9, even A75 or Z63, S1II approach will be good for me and a right direction to M.
Anything digital, I don’t have nostalgia at all. Whatever make IQ better, easier to use....Show more →
I totally get where you’re coming from on the M11. It makes a lot of sense, and it’s kind of how I feel about my A9. I wanted something different though, and I found that in the M10r.
I actually like the removable baseplate. I think of it as a sacrificial part that can get beat up instead of the body.
I went with the M10r on purpose because that sensor doesn’t exist anywhere else in the Leica lineup, and with the right glass the colors are just nicer to my eye.
I also really like the shutter sound on the M10. It’s a small thing, but it matters to me. The other thing is I’m not shooting for clients or on deadlines, so I don’t feel any pressure to chase speed or features with my M.
With the M11, I can’t unsee the Sony influence in the files. They look good, but I already have a Sony for that. My A9 with the 70–200/2.8GMll is a beast and that scratches the tech chasing itch. The M10r is a different vibe.
icarus_ wrote:
I think you want to shoot film, it's OK to admit it! Film is trendy again. Break out your M2 (M6 if you need a meter) and your favorite roll of HP5!
I hear ya. I shot film for decades. More of a Tri-X guy than Ilford. Shot 8 X 10 Deardorffs, had Hasselblad 500 C/Ms and still have my Canon F-1s. Would probably still be shooting film if I had a darkroom. Lost it when I had to downsize divorce about 25 years ago. Clients forced me to go digital 20 + years ago. I went Canon and hated the automation. I dreaded picking up the cameras. I couldn't stand all the automation. Picked up an M9 Mono in 2012 and fell in love with Leica again. Went all Leica M in 2015 after selling all my canon stuff. The only piece of Canon gear that I got any kind of return on was the 200 2L. Even the 85 1.2L took a beating.
Fred Miranda wrote:
The M-D is actually pretty close to that idea. There's no menu, no LCD, no EVF option, no Wi-Fi, and none of the usual modern tech. All you get is the shutter dial, aperture on the lens and the ISO dial on the back, similar to the newer M11-D, but without the electronic or phone-app features found on the M10-D or M11-D. It does have internal metering, though, so if that ever stopped working it would pretty much become your dream digital M camera!
Now if they only made one with the M 10 Mono sensor.....
Fred Miranda wrote:
I'd say Leica should keep developing the SL and Q series to stay current with mirrorless tech, but at the same time continue making digital M cameras that focus on the essentials, like the M10, which is why it's a classic. Hopefully the M12 doesn't add more electronics and software complexity to a mechanical masterpiece. There's also room to improve the rangefinder mechanically and maybe even make the camera smaller, closer to the size of an M3, which is more compact than the M‑A.
I know I'm probably in the minority these days, so maybe Leica will add more megapixels and features to the M12, which is fine, since many of us are still happy with our cameras and can focus our resources on lenses and trips...
Just please, Leica, don't stop making batteries for your older cameras or providing service for them. ...Show more →
I just bought 4 new M10 batteries from B&H. So they are available from time to time.
As for my nostalgia vote: M9M, M262, M10P. Then all hell breaks lose for me- sold all 4 of my RF M11 for the EV1 and have never been happier.
I must say when I look through the M9M RF and the M262 RF, the latter RF is so much more visibly refined IMHO as it should be, just comparing these two.
Agree about the Overgaard emails which I just send to junk. However, I have been on plenty of this walk about workshops mainly in NYC, and find he is likable and bluntly honest which many in this world cannot take, but he explains his positions when asked or challenged and they make sense to me.
I likely remain one of the few people who actually prefer that the M 240 has more options especially including video. I never bought into the "simplification" of following M generations - reason that video disappeared was simply the raise of the SL series with video focus to avoid in-house competition between M10 and SL.
I'm quite satisfied with my Q3 28. I feel that, with current smaller format offerings reaching the 40-60 megapixel range, we've hit the point of diminishing returns. If you were like me and suffered through the tortuous early days of digital cameras, what we can get now is just amazing by comparison. At this point, I do not need more resolution and definitely don't need bigger files, so I anticipate my Q3 will last me for quite some time, maybe for good. I can imagine others feel the same way with the M10/11. So, what does Leica do next to cause us to continue to empty our pockets?
airfrogusmc wrote:
The only piece of Canon gear that I got any kind of return on was the 200 2L. Even the 85 1.2L took a beating.
Reason for the decrease in value of EF gear was twofold: Lack of Canon releasing early enough a competitor to the successful Nikon D850 which used Sony sensor with high res and DR - Canon released years later in 2015 the 5DsR which was a good camera but came much too late after many Canon users jumped already ship to Nikon. Then Sony hammered Canon hard in 2014 with its release of their MLC A7 series which made even more Canon users leave with prices for used EF gear dropping significantly. The last Canon camera I bought was the 5D MkII which I still have and use sporadically. I kept all my EF L lenses.
Fred Miranda wrote:
This is another feature Leica borrowed from mirrorless cameras, and in theory we do get better internal matrix (multi-segment) metering. Having said that, I am likely in the minority here but I much prefer the metering off the shutter curtain because it's the classic center-weighted metering, and the shutter action is limited to open (take a picture) and close (get metering for the next capture).
On the M11 the shutter sits open at rest so the sensor can meter the scene continuously. Pressing the shutter triggers a full close, open, close, open cycle. It closes to reset, opens for the exposure, closes to end it, and opens again so the sensor is live for the next shot. Those extra movements turn the classic single click of the M10 into a busier, clunkier shuffle.
I find it genuinely annoying because it breaks the traditional Leica M feel. There is a tiny pre-exposure clack and the sound is less satisfying. It feels more mirrorless-like which for me is a step back even though the metering upgrade is real. I have never had issues with auto exposure, though I often prefer an external incident meter.
Not trying to be contrarian, I do like the bottom plate as it reminds me of my film Ms. Practically speaking, with my Leica M10-P and Leica M10-R, I almost never need to remove the bottom plate for transferring images. I usually send files wirelessly to my Mac, so the only time I take it off is to change the battery....Show more →
The shutter could be *fixed* easily with the addition of EFCS. And it's be even faster and quieter. It never bothered me. I adapted very quickly to the extra 1/125th of a second needed.
I didn't actually like the colours of the M10 or M10R as much as the M11. I don't like the short battery life. I miss exactly one thing.
The thumb rest on the M10-D. It worked great and it looked great. If Leica weren't so greedy we could have better looking digital M's with improved ergonomics.
Other than that my M11's have been superior in every way. I have a choice of resolution. The base plate, which I thought I'd miss, is wildly better with USB charging and easily removed batteries. Internal memory for the win.
I'd sacrifice the rear screen for an IBIS unit in the M12-D. But that's about it.
And Mr Overgaard should be wiped from the internet. Forever.
