Sony sensor M11 seemed like it was just buy time until new sensor was finished (probably end of this year or next year). Don't think more res is necessary unless they decide to market to gen zalpha 67mpx. If the startup and shutter lag feels instant, that's reason alone to skip the M11 gen and get the M12.
So Leica's partners could only be AMS OSRAM (with STMicroelectronics possibly being the foundry from before) or Tower Semi (probably unlikely if they want to keep EU identity) to produce the new sensor with Sony out.
zi464 wrote:
Better DR, 45MP and hybrid viewfinder - all I need from M12.
ISBS is bonus but not necessary.
IBIS is the path of least resistance to effectively higher DR by allowing shooting at slower shutter speed and therefore lower ISO at the same light levels.
ftllens wrote:
Sony sensor M11 seemed like it was just buy time until new sensor was finished (probably end of this year or next year). Don't think more res is necessary unless they decide to market to gen zalpha 67mpx. If the startup and shutter lag feels instant, that's reason alone to skip the M11 gen and get the M12.
So Leica's partners could only be AMS OSRAM (with STMicroelectronics possibly being the foundry from before) or Tower Semi (probably unlikely if they want to keep EU identity) to produce the new sensor with Sony out.
I don't think that is necessarily the case. Leica has decided to pursue a sensor from a supplier other than Sony. They then announced that decision rather casually in an interview with Dr Kaufman. But we have no direct information as to when this project started or how far along it is. What we do know is that Leica created a new VP position to head up this sensor development effort. Hired for this position is Markus Meirse. He formally worked for Fujitsu. He only started working at Leica in the last two weeks. I was informed about this by an insider, but you can easily confirm in LinkedIn as I did.
So, this sensor effort may in fact be at the very begining phases. Since sensor development is usually a 3 to 5 year process It will likely be some time before it is ready for a camera. We may see another Sony based sensor iteration in the mean time.
Alternatively Leica may be approaching this project on the base of an existing fab and and sensor tuning it for their own use. In that case it could come sooner.
In all cases we just don't have enough information to justify all the assumptions I see being made. We only know an effort exists.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Curious how many here would actually prefer Leica to prioritize faster readout and stacked sensor tech over chasing higher megapixels for the M12. Would that change how you shoot with an M?
I asked myself a similar question in December if it would make sense for me to upgrade from my M-E 240 camera to either a M10-R or M11. I went to Asia over the holidays, and I only used my M-E 240 with both my Leica 50/2.0 and 28/2.8 lenses. I - again - came to the conclusion that no newer camera would have been able to provide me with better photos than the ones I took. I personally like the M 240 based 24MP sensor a lot - the colors shine with this one. I had no trouble taking vibrant photos at ISO 1600 and sometimes at ISO 3200 without problems. I also can easily use an older SD card in this camera which doesn't cost a fortune. I agree that for rangefinder cameras 24 to 36 MP seems to be the optimum. The M10-R and M11 sensors are better in protecting clipping highlights - but I also learned to manage this well with my M 240. I plan to use my M-E 240 and my M 246 for years to come. Instead of a newer M-based rangefinder camera I believe the M-EV1 would be more beneficial for me as alternative to just OVF. I used multiple times during my vacation the VF-2 external viewfinder, for example in dimmer environments or for close-up situations with the lens shot wider open. But price-wise, the M-EV1 is far out of range for me what I would be willing to spend for such EVF based camera. Just my 2 Cents!
retrofocus wrote:
I asked myself a similar question in December if it would make sense for me to upgrade from my M-E 240 camera to either a M10-R or M11. I went to Asia over the holidays, and I only used my M-E 240 with both my Leica 50/2.0 and 28/2.8 lenses. I - again - came to the conclusion that no newer camera would have been able to provide me with better photos than the ones I took. I personally like the M 240 based 24MP sensor a lot - the colors shine with this one. I had no trouble taking vibrant photos at ISO 1600 and sometimes at ISO 3200 without problems. I also can easily use an older SD card in this camera which doesn't cost a fortune. I agree that for rangefinder cameras 24 to 36 MP seems to be the optimum. The M10-R and M11 sensors are better in protecting clipping highlights - but I also learned to manage this well with my M 240. I plan to use my M-E 240 and my M 246 for years to come. Instead of a newer M-based rangefinder camera I believe the M-EV1 would be more beneficial for me as alternative to just OVF. I used multiple times during my vacation the VF-2 external viewfinder, for example in dimmer environments or for close-up situations with the lens shot wider open. But price-wise, the M-EV1 is far out of range for me what I would be willing to spend for such EVF based camera. Just my 2 Cents! ...Show more →
Makes a lot of sense to me. I use an M-D, which is also based on the M240, same 24MP sensor, and I genuinely love the files it produces. The lower DR gives deeper blacks and a bit stronger contrast compared to the M10-R and M11, and because of that the colors tend to look more intense. There is a slight tint (towards green) bias, which I think works well for most subjects except portraits, and even then it's an easy fix when needed.
As you mentioned, highlights do clip earlier, so I've learned to underexpose slightly and manage it that way. Is it worth upgrading to an M10-R or M11? Only if you really need the extra resolution. The rangefinder experience itself does not change much, so I agree that a M240 based body still covers a lot of ground until it actually breaks or becomes too costly to repair.
The EV1 is a completely different proposition, as you mentioned. It's closer to shooting with an SL3 and adapted M lenses, but in a much more compact package. That's where the experience truly changes, not with incremental updates to the classic M rangefinder.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Makes a lot of sense to me. I use an M-D, which is also based on the M240, same 24MP sensor, and I genuinely love the files it produces. The lower DR gives deeper blacks and a bit stronger contrast compared to the M10-R and M11, and because of that the colors tend to look more intense. There is a slight tint (towards green) bias, which I think works well for most subjects except portraits, and even then it's an easy fix when needed.
As you mentioned, highlights do clip earlier, so I've learned to underexpose slightly and manage it that way. Is it worth upgrading to an M10-R or M11? Only if you really need the extra resolution. The rangefinder experience itself does not change much, so I agree that a M240 based body still covers a lot of ground until it actually breaks or becomes too costly to repair.
The EV1 is a completely different proposition, as you mentioned. It's closer to shooting with an SL3 and adapted M lenses, but in a much more compact package. That's where the experience truly changes, not with incremental updates to the classic M rangefinder....Show more →
+1. Couldn't agree more with your assessment. I am still using also in parallel my - also older now - Sony A7R sensor with 36 MP. The advantage of this Sony sensor versus the M 240 sensor is better dynamic range in shadows and highlight areas. But for resolution, the difference is less obvious, but for landscape photography the Sony sensor has benefits here (a bit sharper details). I have no experience yet with a FF sensor at 60 MP like in the latest Leica M cameras. I made prints of my M 240 and M 246 based photos for photo books and to frame up to 12x18" and didn't see any lack of resolution or detail. At larger print size I am sure there is a difference - but I am not making these kind of larger prints nor plan to do them in the future.
I am still currently post processing photos I took in December and January during my trip to Asia. I only used my M-E 240 and two Leica 28/2.8 and 50/2.0 lenses. I am still amazed about the quality of the photos taken with this gear. I especially love the colors with the M 240 sensor which I actually even prefer over the ones coming from the Sony A7R sensor.
retrofocus wrote:
+1. Couldn't agree more with your assessment. I am still using also in parallel my - also older now - Sony A7R sensor with 36 MP. The advantage of this Sony sensor versus the M 240 sensor is better dynamic range in shadows and highlight areas. But for resolution, the difference is less obvious, but for landscape photography the Sony sensor has benefits here (a bit sharper details). I have no experience yet with a FF sensor at 60 MP like in the latest Leica M cameras. I made prints of my M 240 and M 246 based photos for photo books and to frame up to 12x18" and didn't see any lack of resolution or detail. At larger print size I am sure there is a difference - but I am not making these kind of larger prints nor plan to do them in the future.
I am still currently post processing photos I took in December and January during my trip to Asia. I only used my M-E 240 and two Leica 28/2.8 and 50/2.0 lenses. I am still amazed about the quality of the photos taken with this gear. I especially love the colors with the M 240 sensor which I actually even prefer over the ones coming from the Sony A7R sensor. ...Show more →
There is another important detail that's often overlooked. The M240 series (including the M-D) has a viewfinder magnification of 0.68x, while newer cameras starting with the M10 have 0.72x. Which one is better really depends on the lenses you use most. If you shoot primarily with a 50mm, the M10 series (and newer) is likely the better choice, especially since the rangefinder patch is larger and slightly magnified. On the other hand, if you often use 28mm or 35mm lenses, the M240 (and M9) viewfinder can actually be advantageous, making it easier to see the framelines clearly.
Personally, I prefer shooting 28mm lenses on the M-D for this reason.
Fred Miranda wrote:
There is another important detail that's often overlooked. The M240 series (including the M-D) has a viewfinder magnification of 0.68×, while newer cameras starting with the M10 have 0.72×. Which one is better really depends on the lenses you use most. If you shoot primarily with a 50mm, the M10 series (and newer) is likely the better choice, especially since the rangefinder patch is larger and slightly magnified. On the other hand, if you often use 28mm or 35mm lenses, the M240 (and M9) viewfinder can actually be advantageous, making it easier to see the framelines clearly.
Personally, I prefer shooting 28mm lenses on the M-D for this reason. ...Show more →
I am using 28 mm lenses both on my film M cameras with 0.72x magnification in the viewfinder and then on my M 240 based cameras with 0.68x magnification - honestly, I don't see much if any difference. If there is, it is so small that it is not really obvious to me for my eyes. I need to double-check again!
retrofocus wrote:
I am using 28 mm lenses both on my film M cameras with 0.72x magnification in the viewfinder and then on my M 240 based cameras with 0.68x magnification - honestly, I don't see much if any difference. If there is, it is so small that it is not really obvious to me for my eyes. I need to double-check again!
It makes sense that you don't notice much, since the difference in magnification is only about 6%. Still, it is there if you pay attention to the edges. With a 28mm lens, I find the framelines easier to see on the 0.68x viewfinder compared to 0.72x.
1bwana1 wrote:
It will not be the new SL camera with the 44.3 mpx sensor. It will be a new L-Mount camera, probably manufactured by Panasonic.
Yes, I get the impression this will basically be a Panasonic LUMIX S1R II with a "Leica" aesthetic build to make it look more like an SL series. It won't be a camera designed by Leica, but it will have the Leica body styling, similar to how Panasonic L-mount lenses (like the 35mm and 50mm) are used for Leica's more compact non-APO 35/50 SL options. This approach. which Leica already employs for lenses, would allow the rumored "new SL" to be much more affordable and could help Leica sell more lenses.
stgrove wrote:
Panasonic already has a 44MP L mount camera the S1RII. The new Leica Camera is code number 3403 will be badged as a Leica from what I understand.
Which was my point. It will most likely be the Panasonic S1RII, in a Leica designed (mabe even assembled?) body, with Leica style menus, workflow, and color science.
1bwana1 wrote:
Which was my point. It will most likely be the Panasonic S1RII, in a Leica designed (mabe even assembled?) body, with Leica style menus and workflow.
Just the way you worded it made it sound otherwise. That's all.
1bwana1 wrote:
I don't think that is necessarily the case. Leica has decided to pursue a sensor from a supplier other than Sony. They then announced that decision rather casually in an interview with Dr Kaufman. But we have no direct information as to when this project started or how far along it is. What we do know is that Leica created a new VP position to head up this sensor development effort. Hired for this position is Markus Meirse. He formally worked for Fujitsu. He only started working at Leica in the last two weeks. I was informed about this by an insider, but you can easily confirm in LinkedIn as I did.
So, this sensor effort may in fact be at the very begining phases. Since sensor development is usually a 3 to 5 year process It will likely be some time before it is ready for a camera. We may see another Sony based sensor iteration in the mean time.
Alternatively Leica may be approaching this project on the base of an existing fab and and sensor tuning it for their own use. In that case it could come sooner.
In all cases we just don't have enough information to justify all the assumptions I see being made. We only know an effort exists. ...Show more →
These moves to in-house sensor expertise, even if at an exec-level, give me hope w.r.t. the PE exit: The Kaufmanns presently hold a majority stake in the company, and one would imagine that they're setting the trajectory for further market differentiation by pursuing a different sensor - not a cheap/easy move - so you'd have to imagine that anyone interested in that other 45% likely has to have a similar vision or genuine synergy with Leica's purported direction; i.e.: a company that can design, if not manufacture, imaging sensors.
Whether or not you agree with the luxury marketing Leica has taken, one has to admire the Kaufmann-era stewardship of camera and optics development. I do recall a lot of bellyaching when Andreas' family foundation bought that stake in the company, but you gotta hand it to the man...
