Fred Miranda wrote:
Honestly, since the Leica M is so well respected for street photography, equipping the M12 with a stacked sensor or global shutter CMOS would make a lot of sense to me.
We have gotten a little too caught up in the resolution race, but the truth is most of us already have more than enough detail to work with.
This!...
As a Nikon shooter who uses Leica for street and urban photography, nothing beats the speed of a stacked sensor. Most of my photography is either wildlife and landscapes. The capacity of a fast stacked sensor to shoot, move a file instantly, and be ready without rolling shutter is unprecedented. If you really are into the decisive moment, there is nothing like looking at 10 images and being able to pick the "perfect" gesture. Of course, this may spoil the fun of just shooting one frame and trying to get it right in one take... and it is for this reason that I have an M8.
I actually think a stacked (or partially stacked) sensor might be the right fit for the M-EV series. I would be interested in an M-EV with a 24 MP sensor like one in the Z6III. As for the M12, staying within the 40-60MP band makes a lot of sense... I'm not really sure that the M11 gains anything over the existing 48MP sensors used by other manufacturers, while we 48MP users w/stacked sensors get nearly instant readout and excellent DR.
I'm excited to see how all of this develops and hope that Leica hit is out of the park!
Fred Miranda wrote:
Same here. I noticed the same thing when moving from 40 to 60MP. The extra detail is real, but it also leads to a less balanced overall performance with many lenses. The center of most lenses is better corrected and benefits more from the added resolution than the outer areas. As pixel count increases, that imbalance becomes easier to see across the frame.
Back when we were shooting 3,6, or even 12MP, chasing more resolution made sense and the improvement was obvious. After 24 or 36MP, the situation changed. I still use two cameras with 24 megapixel sensors, the M10-P and the M-D, and I have never felt limited, even for landscapes. I also do not crop my images for tighter composition. Many say the benefit of higher resolution comes from cropping, but I avoid that since my original composition is usually exactly what I want.
With the new offerings in upscaling software, a high performing lens paired with 18 or 24MPs can produce a very large and detailed image...
Something I would really love to see is more highlight headroom, maybe 2 stops above where we are now. That would bring the shooting experience much closer to film, where you can let the bright areas breathe instead of blowing out so easily. I am perfectly fine with the shadows and mid-tones picking up more noise in exchange. Noise is not the villain, it often adds character and texture to an image.
I have extremely similar feelings. At this point, after shooting so many sensors from all the makers, I liked the a7c the best--really great color, nice highlight roll off, overall DR and lowlight trade off with enough res. I, like you, always want more headroom in the highlights. That's why the a7v sensor is curious to me--I am good with the current noise and all everything on sensor since essentially the a7rII (BSI dual gain era).
I find the AI NR in LR pretty amazing. I have not used the upsizing tool much, but when I have it's worked well except on film photos where it does weird and undesirable things to the grains and texture of the photos.
In the German Leica Forum, a forum member suspects that the development contribution to the "Leica Sensor" will likely be roughly equivalent to the development contribution to the "Leica Monopan." I don't think that's unlikely. 😄
Nifty Fifty wrote:
In the German Leica Forum, a forum member suspects that the development contribution to the "Leica Sensor" will likely be roughly equivalent to the development contribution to the "Leica Monopan." I don't think that's unlikely. 😄
No, I think history shows it will be more. Not so much at the core level of design like circuitry and chip structure, but when it comes to things like filters, cover glass, and any on sensor processing. Leica sensors have always been unique in these things. Just as their processors have.
Nifty Fifty wrote:
In the German Leica Forum, a forum member suspects that the development contribution to the "Leica Sensor" will likely be roughly equivalent to the development contribution to the "Leica Monopan." I don't think that's unlikely. 😄
1bwana1 wrote:
No, I think history shows it will be more. Not so much at the core level of design like circuitry and chip structure, but when it comes to things like filters, cover glass, and any on sensor processing. Leica sensors have always been unique in these things. Just as their processors have.
If Leica was keen toward elliptical microlens development (historical) for M body / lenses, I think they have the wherewithal to have their hand in the game beyond simply lending their namesake. That, and their sense of how they want their colors profiled ... and likely aligned to the profiling of their sense of color coming from their lens optical projection, I suspect they'll have more development contribution than the "authoritative" forum member suggests.
Curious how many here would actually prefer Leica to prioritize faster readout and stacked sensor tech over chasing higher megapixels for the M12. Would that change how you shoot with an M?
Fred Miranda wrote:
Curious how many here would actually prefer Leica to prioritize faster readout and stacked sensor tech over chasing higher megapixels for the M12. Would that change how you shoot with an M?
I'm not sure 60 mpix have ever been useful to me. In fact, I shoot very often with 16 Mpix or 20 Mpix cameras and the print are very good.
The Leica and more generally FF are better when it comes to B&W conversion with a lot of grey, i.e. landscape but as far as I'm concerned, that's all.
So for me, I would like:
- a way to avoid the need to be very careful with the shutter speed in order to avoid motion blur. IBIS would be preferred but no noise at higher iso, i.e. higher shutter speed is be a good solution too.
- faster readout mean using the electronic shutter all the time: no shutter noise. Not to mention avoid banding when shooting spectacles
- and of course, a faster startup time. This has nothing to do with the sensor but who knows, if we talk about it, maybe one day, Leica will hear. I know, they are deaf and somewhere in the spectrum but one can hope.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Curious how many here would actually prefer Leica to prioritize faster readout and stacked sensor tech over chasing higher megapixels for the M12. Would that change how you shoot with an M?
I would absolutely favor improving other areas rather than increasing megapixels. Things like faster readout, faster start/wake times, IBIS, higher Dynamic Range, maybe even go to 16 bit RAW. I am all about IQ with my Leicas. I would also like to see Leica working with third parties more closely to ensure that they support the system. Notably helping strobe suppliers like Godox to fully support a full feature set for lighting. Even if this ment subsidizing development a bit to offset the lower volumes that Leica users would represent.
That said, I would like to see Leica at least maintaining the 60 megapixel benchmark. I would not like to see a significant reduction in this.
1bwana1 wrote:
That said, I would like to see Leica at least maintaining the 60 megapixel benchmark. I would not like to see a significant reduction in this.
What about everything you want to 40 to 50 mpix? Would you see the difference?
pmeheut wrote:
I'm not sure 60 mpix have ever been useful to me. In fact, I shoot very often with 16 Mpix or 20 Mpix cameras and the print are very good.
The Leica and more generally FF are better when it comes to B&W conversion with a lot of grey, i.e. landscape but as far as I'm concerned, that's all.
So for me, I would like:
- a way to avoid the need to be very careful with the shutter speed in order to avoid motion blur. IBIS would be preferred but no noise at higher iso, i.e. higher shutter speed is be a good solution too.
- faster readout mean using the electronic shutter all the time: no shutter noise. Not to mention avoid banding when shooting spectacles
- and of course, a faster startup time. This has nothing to do with the sensor but who knows, if we talk about it, maybe one day, Leica will hear. I know, they are deaf and somewhere in the spectrum but one can hope....Show more →
I second this. I consider 40-50mp more than enough. I have the GFX100s but only because I cut half the size by using its panoramic mode. And I too use MFT in my Olympus and D-Lux8 quite a bit. Unless I printed larger or cropped a lot, the differences are negligible.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Curious how many here would actually prefer Leica to prioritize faster readout and stacked sensor tech over chasing higher megapixels for the M12. Would that change how you shoot with an M?
I think you know my vote.
I'm quite baffled by the resistance to an M with a stacked sensor (global is too far away in the future)...
From my point of view, it would simply add more flexibility for how one could use the camera. A fast stacked sensor like in the Nikon Z8/Z9 or Sony a1/a1II could even eliminate need for a mechanical shutter and/or EFCS.
I'm not expecting such an M camera to be a variant of the Canon R1 at 40fps, etc... I just prefer to work in e-shutter photographing across all genres, including dynamic hand held action, without concern about rolling shutter artifacts or mangled bokeh if I accidentally use too high a shutter speed in EFCS. Given that the M thrives in intimate environments, usable e-shutter capability would be a worthwhile enhancement, IMO.
I believe it fits the Leica M philosophy perfectly. Quick, silent, decisive.
Sensor resolution can fall wherever it may as long as Leica continues to include multiple resolution options.
But I'm also with Steve (1bwana1), that the biggest missing feature is IBIS. It's the primary reason I currently lean towards using my mirrorless system more often than my M. But I definitely appreciate that IBIS is a significant technical hurdle for Leica to implement in an M body with the current form factor, therefore I don't expect to see it in an M in the near future.
I also don't think there's any point going too crazy with fantastical wishes for the M12 given what we were all guessing the EV1 would (should) be, compared to what it actually is. In this respect, I'd be very surprised if the M12 sensor ends up being stacked. Of course my opinion is it should be...
An interesting article about Leica plans for the future in the latest Financial Times. Unfortunately you be be subscribed to view it. I am not, so I am just posting based on a summary provided by someone else. In the article the new sensor development program is discussed. It seems that Leica wants to invest in being a leader in the digital image sensor technology World. Although not mentioned in the article I have it on good authority that Leica has hired a new VP who will head up the sensor development project. The new VP is Markus Mierse who was previously at Fujitsu. He was only on boarded in the last couple of weeks, so I am not sure how far along Leica is in this project. I believe sensor development usually takes about 3 to 5 years. So maybe we will still see a Sony sensor in the M12.
Also interesting is that Leica will be looking to expand into more consumer areas looking for growth. Consumer eyewear is specifically mentioned. I think that current management whether pushed by Dr Kaufman and/or Blackstone is very focused on branding and leveraging that into expanded luxury consumer markets. Firms like Blackstone tend to be focused on executing growth and profitable exit strategies. Hopefully, they will not take their eye off cameras when doing so.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Curious how many here would actually prefer Leica to prioritize faster readout and stacked sensor tech over chasing higher megapixels for the M12. Would that change how you shoot with an M?
Just fast enough to eliminate rolling shutter.
But isn't it hoping in vain to think a fast sensor would appear soon in the M12 and leave the SL3/SL3-S so far behind?
Faster processor in m12 would enable 1. improved color science (granular calibration to different color temperaturs, a la Hasselblad) 2. smarter EVF focus assist (e.g., eye detection and zoom in on detected eye when adjusting the focus ring) 3. faster phone workflow 4. more responsive user experience (faster boot, review, screen change). This hits the primary purpose of M - immediacy & fun.
The other perennial wishes that would be game changers for M12 include IBIS and sensor dust protection.
Nowhere anywhere is a different sensor beneficial, based on current state of sensor tech. Global shutter and other means to deliver faster electronic shutter performance still compromise on DR, which I would not ask for (e.g., IQ advantage of Nikon Z7 vs. Z8/Z9).
The emphasis on capturing dynamics moments 'on the street' - how relevant is the intersection of situations between not needing autofocus, and not being able to get it done with mechanical shutter?
highdesertmesa wrote:
Just fast enough to eliminate rolling shutter.
Kinda depends on what speed your subject is moving ... as well, as how steady your hand is. Where 1/30s (vs. current 1/9s) might be fine in one scenario, it may still reveal RS in a different scenario.
That makes "just fast enough" a bit tricky to understand where you want to draw that line, based on criteria of XYZ
RustyBug wrote:
Kinda depends on what speed your subject is moving ... as well, as how steady your hand is. Where 1/30s (vs. current 1/9s) might be fine in one scenario, it may still reveal RS in a different scenario.
That makes "just fast enough" a bit tricky to understand where you want to draw that line, based on criteria of XYZ
I probably want a faster sensor than what I made it sound like. Example: shots taken from a vehicle at +/- highway speeds that don't warp the fenceposts and telephone poles. I want A1 speed readout so I can stop using the mechanical shutter if I want to. I care much less about burst speed, etc.
If we're going to keep the rolling shutter, my preference would be for a 36mp sensor version of the one from the SL2-S/SL3-S.
