It seems that more and more those who post items for sale on the Buy&Sell forum are expecting the buyer to pay both the selling and shipping fees. I have always felt these fees were costs of selling, not buying. What do you think?
All online shops either include shipping or charge for shipping so that's nothing new. The fees give the option to pay via fee-less methods if one chooses to. A lot of places charge more for using a credit card nowadays...because of the fee.
You are free to do business with whoever you choose. If a seller advertising a "low" price only to charge you PP fees and shipping on top isn't your style, there are sellers who bundle everything in to the asking price (yours truly included).
Sep 26, 2025 at 03:57 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
gaopa wrote:
It seems that more and more those who post items for sale on the Buy&Sell forum are expecting the buyer to pay both the selling and shipping fees. I have always felt these fees were costs of selling, not buying. What do you think?
The norms for the Buy & Sell forum have changed a lot over the years and I think quite a bit recently. Old timers like me and I suspect you can remember when it was considered bad form to not include shipping and PayPal fees in the asking price. I always do. I think you are right, however, that fewer and fewer sellers do. In a way it makes no difference as when you buy you can just adjust for the fact that you will have to pay these fees and know that the real cost is going to be higher than the asking price. Still, I prefer the transparency of knowing exactly what the price is rather than potentially having to negotiate over that. When people include shipping and fees I am more likely to buy from them and I almost always just say I will take the lens at the advertised price. Personally, I think people do themselves a disservice and make the sale more complicated and potentially controversial when they don't include the fees and shipping. Then that has to be negotiated. If I regularly interact with someone on the board and they are selling and they include fees, then I will at times send payment with no fees so they get a little more. I would never send a no fee payment to somebody who doesn't include the fees. I think some people think that people will avoid the fees more if they don't include them, but it is exactly the opposite way with me.
Steve Spencer wrote:
The norms for the Buy & Sell forum have changed a lot over the years and I think quite a bit recently. Old timers like me and I suspect you can remember when it was considered bad form to not include shipping and PayPal fees in the asking price. I always do. I think you are right, however, that fewer and fewer sellers do. In a way it makes no difference as when you buy you can just adjust for the fact that you will have to pay these fees and know that the real cost is going to be higher than the asking price. Still, I prefer the transparency of knowing exactly what the price is rather than potentially having to negotiate over that. When people include shipping and fees I am more likely to buy from them and I almost always just say I will take the lens at the advertised price. Personally, I think people do themselves a disservice and make the sale more complicated and potentially controversial when they don't include the fees and shipping. Then that has to be negotiated. If I regularly interact with someone on the board and they are selling and they include fees, then I will at times send payment with no fees so they get a little more. I would never send a no fee payment to somebody who doesn't include the fees. I think some people think that people will avoid the fees more if they don't include them, but it is exactly the opposite way with me....Show more →
There are many different ways to pay, some include a fee, others not. There are many different ways to ship, some overnight, others ground.
I personally like the option of choosing my payment method and shipping method and expect to pay the fees for both. Most times I can wait for a couple of weeks and would gladly take a cheaper shipping method…others want it now.
I always include PP fees and shipping in my price. I refuse to do the no-fee payment methods because it deprives my buyer from the purchase protection.
But I realize my approach is not optimal for me. By separating item and shipping costs, any returned items will be credited only the item value and the buyer is out shipping two ways.
When I see items being sold with added shipping and PP fees, I can't help but feel the seller is looking out for their own interests over those of the buyer.
Funny, I am in the middle of a lens trade + cash transaction. There really isn't a standard for that and we resolved to trust each other and the lens will pass each other in shipment.
In a way, its doesn't matter who pays the cost as long as its understood and evaluated by both parties. As a buyer, I always offer a price that is net to the seller, paying the G & S PP fee and the seller paying the freight. I look at it as who will be making a claim. If you buy something with PP G&S, and never receive the item, you will make a claim to PP. Likewise, if you ship an item to somebody and UPS uses it for traction on their truck, the person initiating the shipment will have a claim with UPS. I suppose you could get around that by reimbursing the seller for freight even though they will handle it. But that just becomes part of the math. Although if UPS deems the package improperly packed, they aren't covering it anyway so again, I think it make sense to me to have the seller responsible for packing and shipping.
darwinphoto wrote:
I always include PP fees and shipping in my price. I refuse to do the no-fee payment methods because it deprives my buyer from the purchase protection.
But I realize my approach is not optimal for me. By separating item and shipping costs, any returned items will be credited only the item value and the buyer is out shipping two ways.
When I see items being sold with added shipping and PP fees, I can't help but feel the seller is looking out for their own interests over those of the buyer.
Depends where you ship to. I’d bet your shipping price would change for someone like me from Canada.
gaopa wrote:
It seems that more and more those who post items for sale on the Buy&Sell forum are expecting the buyer to pay both the selling and shipping fees. I have always felt these fees were costs of selling, not buying. What do you think?
You're mistaking this site for a retail store.
Sep 26, 2025 at 07:10 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
I'm mixed on all this. I used to always include both shipping and PP fee. Now, they want me to report sales on which I'm losing money on my tax return. Just one more big hassle. If they'd let me report the loss and pay less tax, I'd gladly do so.
The other issue is the amount of people out there trying to scam you. I read all kinds of horror stories where buyers file a claim with PP, and the seller essentially has no recourse and is out both the product and the money.
Now I lean toward being very careful and only buying or selling with very well established members with lots of feedback. If someone is a newer buyer, I'm only taking a F&F payment. I still always include shipping in the price.
The big driver in the non-fee trend, this year, is the fact that PayPal started issuing 1099’s this year, in accordance with updated IRS rules.
I do a lot of PayPal B&S transactions (too many) and received a lengthy 1099 from PayPal for my 2024 taxes. Ugh!! Fortunately, I saved all my purchase documentation, and after a couple hours, was able to create a spreadsheet detailing all the transactions listed on the detailed 1099. I found that the easiest way to zero-out any income gains was to report on an LLC that I keep.
I am now sympathetic to all those that now only utilize F&F for transactions. On the positive side, it has really slowed my purchases and throttled my GAS. Doing a $5,000 transaction with F&F just feels like ‘rolling the dice’.
Edit: If the F&F seller’s price is very favorable, I will often offer to buy with G&S, with an added 3.5%. I probably get turned down a little over 50% of the time, which seems to reinforce the IRS issue.
DougVaughn wrote:
The other issue is the amount of people out there trying to scam you. I read all kinds of horror stories where buyers file a claim with PP, and the seller essentially has no recourse and is out both the product and the money.
If the seller insures and ships with signature required then there is proof of delivery.
chiron wrote:
Some of the stories I have heard involve fraudulent claims to PP that the package received by the buyer contained only a bag of rice.
There are bad people in the world bound to find a way to be bad. That's going to be possible regardless of who pays the PP or shipping. In my experience with shipping anything, damage by the shipping companies is the most likely problem to happen. So I like to insure for the value and pay the extra $20 or whatever. And I like buying here on FM from those with positive feedback.
Sep 28, 2025 at 10:38 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
chiron wrote:
Some of the stories I have heard involve fraudulent claims to PP that the package received by the buyer contained only a bag of rice.
I had basically a good experience with PayPal once as the buyer. I bought a lens at what I thought was a good price on that auction site. The seller, had very little feedback and I knew I was taking a risk. Fortunately, I used PayPal goods and services. The seller sent a package right away and with tracking I could tell it was coming to my zip code. What the seller did, however, was deliver it to an apartment building in my zip code. It took awhile to track down the package. It was sent through USPS, however, and I have informed delivery, which I would recommend--it costs nothing, and I got someone to help at the post office. They tracked down the package and got it to me. USPS also takes pictures of every package--that is part of informed delivery--and the package which was supposed to be a lens was just an envelope. It turns out that they sent me a blank CD to an apartment building in my zip code. If I wouldn't have tracked it down and had a picture of the envelope from USPS I am not sure what PayPal would have done, but with that information they refunded what I paid without any hassle. I have bought and sold dozens of items here with zero issues. I think it is a much better way to buy and sell. Still I think paying attention to who you are buying from and selling to is a very good practice and I would recommend informed delivery from USPS as it is free and does document from a credible third party what the outside of the package looks like. Maybe not total protection, but it was very useful in my case.
After accepting a lowball offer, I'd at least ask the buyer to shoulder the PP fee if they wanted to use regular PP. As a gentleman, I always pay for shipping.
But lately, I just wanted to move stuff so I take the lowball offer, swallow the shipping, and take the kick on the chin on PP fees.
We all lose money in the end. Only UPS, Paypal, and credit card companies win.
Steve Spencer wrote:
I had basically a good experience with PayPal once as the buyer. I bought a lens at what I thought was a good price on that auction site. The seller, had very little feedback and I knew I was taking a risk. Fortunately, I used PayPal goods and services. The seller sent a package right away and with tracking I could tell it was coming to my zip code. What the seller did, however, was deliver it to an apartment building in my zip code. It took awhile to track down the package. It was sent through USPS, however, and I have informed delivery, which I would recommend--it costs nothing, and I got someone to help at the post office. They tracked down the package and got it to me. USPS also takes pictures of every package--that is part of informed delivery--and the package which was supposed to be a lens was just an envelope. It turns out that they sent me a blank CD to an apartment building in my zip code. If I wouldn't have tracked it down and had a picture of the envelope from USPS I am not sure what PayPal would have done, but with that information they refunded what I paid without any hassle. I have bought and sold dozens of items here with zero issues. I think it is a much better way to buy and sell. Still I think paying attention to who you are buying from and selling to is a very good practice and I would recommend informed delivery from USPS as it is free and does document from a credible third party what the outside of the package looks like. Maybe not total protection, but it was very useful in my case....Show more →
I'm not sure what "informed delivery" is. I have something from USPS which sends me a supposed list and photos of every piece of mail that I am getting every day. Is that what you are referring to? If so, I find it very inaccurate. It only lists and sends pictures of about half the mail I am receiving and it does not photograph packages. Perhaps you have a different service and I would like to learn more about it. Thanks.
Sep 30, 2025 at 12:09 AM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
TENOG wrote:
I'm not sure what "informed delivery" is. I have something from USPS which sends me a supposed list and photos of every piece of mail that I am getting every day. Is that what you are referring to? If so, I find it very inaccurate. It only lists and sends pictures of about half the mail I am receiving and it does not photograph packages. Perhaps you have a different service and I would like to learn more about it. Thanks.
It sounds like what I have and the post office calls informed delivery, but mine is very accurate. Like a lot of things at the post office, however, services may vary a lot from one place to another.
You know what's crazy? You list an item and get 50 lowball offers. After accepting one, you get a PM saying "I'll take it if it's still available" without a lowball. When you say it's sold, they go "aww shucks that was a great price." Well bro where were you all these time when the listing was still active?
Or this:
"hey man I'll take it if it's still available. What's your paypal?"
Me: (gives paypal info)
Buyer: Also, would you take (lowball) for it?
Me: Dude, you already committed to buy, why toss a lowball at the end?
