Need some advice from this forum. Long time Nikon photographer (D1->Z9) and use the Z system for most of my needs. But for travel/street, I’ve started exploring smaller, discreet packages. I bought a Q3 28 1.5 years ago that I enjoy, and while Il love the images it produces, it doesn’t fully scratch that itch, probably because of the focal length. As a Z8/9 shooter, I’ve always simultaneously lusted after the higher MP world of Sony/Leica/Hasselblad, as well Leica’s extensive library of APO and other interesting glass.
I currently have an X2D II + 38V/55V on backorder as a travel/street/everyday kit, but I’m starting to second guess that decision. X2D II thoughts:
[+] 100MP baby, great DR, natural colors
[+] Amazing IBIS
[+] Compared to Leica M, Hasselblad a relatively low cost system 😵💫
[+] From the reviews I’ve seen, the AF is definitely not going to match my Nikon’s, but any AF is better than the lack of AF in the M system.
[-] From the reviews I’ve read the 38V/55V are good lenses, but not in the same league as Leica’s APO glass
[-] Decent increase in bulk and visual weight compared with the M11-P or Q3
[-] Decent increase in weight compared with a M11-P or Q3
As a result I’ve started debating the M11-P in black as an alternative. From a looks/size/discreetness perspective, it really can’t be beat. But, I’ve never used MF on any of my cameras, and from demoing some older Leica bodies, I think I’m gonna suck at MF in a rangefinder setup.
[+++] Love the discreetness, and overall package size
[+] Access to amazing glass and would probably start with a 35mm APO Summicron f/2
[=] While 100MP sounds cool, 60MP is more than enough for my needs
[-] No IBIS
[- -] While I’m fortunate enough to be somewhat less price sensitive, the M11-P + two APO lenses + tax is $30k 🫠
[- - -] No AF
Which then begs the question, is the Q3 43 the right alternative? While it’s fixed focal length, it’s probably a more versatile focal length for my style of shooting, and the cost is far less than a X2D II or M11-P setup. But I never clicked with my Q3 28 so maybe the 43 is just more of the same? Do I bite the bullet and try something new (medium format or a rangefinder setup)? Or do I get a M->Z AF adapter and try some M APO glass with some amount of AF on a ZF or Z8?
Thanks for reading this long post, and sharing your wisdom/thoughts on my dilemma!
If you love photography, there isn’t a better system on the planet for pure joy than the Leica M series-
RF is simple to use and once you get the hang of it, you will be annoyed you never jumped in sooner.
Grab a Leica M11-P off the used board with a 35 or 50 Lux and go- Or buy new- You know your bank account-
I am early 40’s and regret not buying into Leica in my late 20’s. Best system on the planet for pure photographic joy and extremely compact!!!!!!! I have taken more meaningful photos with my Leica system in 4 years than any other system I have ever owned….Why? Because it’s so easy and fun to take with me.
My Leica is always with me for the expierence I am doing and not for the experience I am chasing- (hope that makes sense)
I have owned the Hassy- Amazing system and you can’t go wrong but I won’t ever let go of my M system-
I’d definitely rent an M11 first, before purchasing. It’s wildly different to what you’ve had before. Many love it. Some do not. You will miss more shots. It will, at times, frustrate. It can also be immensely satisfying.
The X2D2 with either the 38 or 55V is bigger than the M but not as much as you might think. Lots of people need to add to the M11 to improve the grip. Either a thumb grip or front grip. Both tend to negate some of the size advantages. The manual focus experience with the V lenses is excellent. You will likely get more detail from the X2D2 files anyway than M APO’s as you’ll have more consistent focus accuracy and the system is more than the lenses alone.The 90V and 25V and 75P all out perform Leicas best anyway. And even the 38 and 55 aren’t bad lenses. It’s just the last 5% of the corners that the APO’s beat them.
The Q3-43 has a better lens than either of the M APO’s. Again you may want to add a grip or thumb grip. It doesn’t like filters without removing the hood or getting something aftermarket. You should know if 43mm will work. If you use a 35 or 50 a LOT on your Nikons then you’ll be fine. But if less than half are in that range it’s likely not for you.
You are looking at three wildly different options. I’d be looking at what range you shoot when you travel and what you’re prepared to give up for simplicity.
OK, so you have G.A.S.-we all have at one point or another or still do have it.
Rent an M before you buy since you do not seem aligned with manual focus. Try it since you will spend over $10k for any system you mention except for the Q43 which it seems you do not actually like.
All great advice above, but considering such differing systems tells me that haven’t first decided what you will shoot, or what your basic photographic interests might be. If you are a wealthy individual then none of this matters, just buy it all, but if not, then guard your funds until you know the value of your purchase as a function of how it supports your photographic goals and interests.
I think another argument for waiting is the near term introduction of the M11 version with some form of EVF.
BTW.. My favorite camera is the M11 Monochrom, but my most capable all around camera is the new X2Dii and for size/performance the XCD 38v. My preferences have absolutely nothing to do with what you should do, because they match my photographic interests and not yours.
Lot of good advice here. I have GAS, always had but since the beginning, I've known it is just because I like new toys, it has nothing to do with shooting good pictures.
Even if sometimes, trying a new toy renew my "creativity".
But anyway, I'm using a M11 but also a GRIIIx and several Micro43 cameras including a PEN-F and a very small GM5 for travel/street/everyday like the OP. Sometimes I shoot film with one camera or the other, M or SLR.
And I've noticed that the most important for me is the viewfinder, not the pixel count, DR, AF or not, IBIS, lens...
I shoot better pictures with a nice, great viewfinder. And less gear. The M is even different: I do now use the viewfinder for framing, I do it my mind before even getting the camera for focusing and shooting.
And if I go back, it has been like that for at least 45 years. So of course it may very well be different for you but to add to what has been said, that you need to know what you want to shoot, you also need to know what is important for you.
P.S: renting a M is a double-edge sword. One may need more than a few days or even of few weeks to master framing and focusing with it and really appreciate it.
Leica M is very different from your experience with other camera. MF + no IBIS makes your camera usage is some what limited, depends on the type of picture you want, and so not everyone can feel comfortable to travel with M system only. On the other hand, for everyday camera, M is a very good choice.
How's your eyesight? As much as I loved my M cameras and lenses I now simply couldn't cope without AF, stabilisation, the focusing aids and the whole host of other advantages available to mirrorless users.
Don't buy into Leica M without borrowing, renting or stealing first!
1. Do you want manual focus or not? There is no reason to consider the M11 if you want AF. Even if you want manual focus, there is no reason to consider the M11 if you do not like rangefinder focusing.
2. Are Leica APO lenses are better than the X ones? This sounds a bit like people saying the 35mm lenses where sharper than medium format in the old film times. Yeah ok maybe but sharper to what end? It is the total system that matters. Also, does it matter if a 50Lux is sharper than the 55V if you cannot focus it?
Given the amount of money involved, I would just try and rent one the respective cameras for a weekend and see how they work.
rollei35_warton wrote:
What puzzled me is you contradict yourself. You keep saying you want a smaller system and yet you are getting a X2D II. How is it a smaller system comparing to Z8/Z9?
Forget about X2D system, cancel the order and get a M system if you truly want what you said you want.
Given that the OP is already invested in Nikon, a Z7 II is probably the logical choice for a smaller and lighter camera. He would maintain full compatibility with all of his Nikon lenses (with the added bonus of a backup body) AND he could play around with adapting small M mount lenses if he wanted (and with AF with the Techart Nikon adapter). If he is considering other FF options (rather then stuck on the idea of 100MP MF), the resolution difference between 60 vs 45MP is insignificant at roughly 15% (all other variables being equal)...but logic and GAS typically don't mix well together.
I have been using the X1dii, X2D and now X2Dii as my main travel camera for 5 years now. For me it is the ultimate travel camera. I am not using my M10-P anymore.
The main question is probably whether you can live without autofocus, close(r) focusing, excellent IBIS, etc. Only you can answer that.
The Sony a7cr is smaller and lighter than the M11, and there are quite a few excellent small and light lenses to go with it. You wouldn't be limited to MF only (though Cosina has some brilliant MF lenses for the mount in their Voigtlander brand). Thanks to Sony, Sigma, Samyang, Viltrox, and TTArtisans, there's a nice line of compact and light AF lenses with varying capabilities. Plus, any e-mount lenses you fall for can be used on your z9 with the appropriate adapter (unfortunately, the reverse is not true). There are some caveats, of course; single card slot, you only get EFCS or full electronic shutter, and the EVF doesn't have the size or resolution of the ones in the Q3 or X2DII, but plenty of people here are willing to work around those things for the size, great AF, IBIS, and 61MP sensor. Just something to consider while you're looking at alternatives.
Seems like a used Q3 43 is an easy thing to try. You can probably have one a few months and sell it for even money if it isn’t for you. Much easier than trying this with a whole new system, and perhaps will give you some perspective on size and experience.
As somewith with both a Zf and X2D, megapixels aren't everything, and in the end, are rarely anything. I'd MUCH rather have my Zf on me for 90% of travel situations for a variety of reasons, but mostly because it makes capturing fleeting moments so much easier than the Hasselblad.
If you can't make an interesting photo at 24mp, you can't make an interesting photo at 102mp.
I love having an extremely action-capable Nikon side of the house with the Z9 and all my teles, and then having an ultra-compact Zf and slew of smaller primes (particularly TTArtisan) that get me in and out under anyone's radar. All of my post processing can be shared across any photo I take, instead of having a totally different workflow (Phocus, etc).
RoamingScott wrote:
As somewith with both a Zf and X2D, megapixels aren't everything, and in the end, are rarely anything. I'd MUCH rather have my Zf on me for 90% of travel situations for a variety of reasons, but mostly because it makes capturing fleeting moments so much easier than the Hasselblad.
If you can't make an interesting photo at 24mp, you can't make an interesting photo at 102mp.
I love having an extremely action-capable Nikon side of the house with the Z9 and all my teles, and then having an ultra-compact Zf and slew of smaller primes (particularly TTArtisan) that get me in and out under anyone's radar. All of my post processing can be shared across any photo I take, instead of having a totally different workflow (Phocus, etc)....Show more →
I'm just curious, are there any technical advantages with the ZF vs the Z7 II? I know looks and feel wise, the ZF calls (and I would be first in line for a 45-60MP ZF update!), but just curious if the Z7 II is actually the better option from a feature and capability standpoint. The size and weight difference seems to slightly favor the Z7 II, except for the grip bulge which is meaningless once a lens is attached (except possibly for storage without lens).
'If you can't make an interesting photo at 24mp, you can't make an interesting photo at 102mp."
That would depend on print size and crop requirements ultimately.
Tariq Gibran wrote:
I'm just curious, are there any technical advantages with the ZF vs the Z7 II? I know looks and feel wise, the ZF calls (and I would be first in line for a 45-60MP ZF update!), but just curious if the Z7 II is actually the better option from a feature and capability standpoint. The size and weight difference seems to slightly favor the Z7 II, except for the grip bulge which is meaningless once a lens is attached (except possibly for storage without lens).
'If you can't make an interesting photo at 24mp, you can't make an interesting photo at 102mp."
That would depend on print size and crop requirements ultimately. ...Show more →
I'm printing over 40" wide from Zf files, I remain unconcerned.
And yes, the Zf/Z5ii (same guts, but the Z5ii has the far better button layout) have WAY more features than the Z7ii, the ONLY thing the Z7ii has going for it is pure resolution in the form of one of the finest sensors ever delivered in a Nikon body. Unfortunately, that is about all it has going for it, and it's not GOOD ENOUGH to justify all of the missing stuff, for me at least.
