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Now ditching the M11?

  
 
tzhang4284
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p.3 #1 · Now ditching the M11?


johnvanr wrote:
As I've stated many times before, I want a Contax G-sized FF digital camera, with similar small and excellent lenses, but a better viewfinder and AF than the G offered. I'd still miss zone focusing, but I'd have my small FF kit with superb glass and AF.


You should really just pick up a Sony A7CR with the 24mm and 40mm. All they’re missing is a 90mm but Sigma has a 90mm.



Aug 30, 2025 at 11:30 AM
johnvanr
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p.3 #2 · Now ditching the M11?


tzhang4284 wrote:
You should really just pick up a Sony A7CR with the 24mm and 40mm. All they’re missing is a 90mm but Sigma has a 90mm.


No Sony for me.



Aug 30, 2025 at 12:07 PM
tzhang4284
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p.3 #3 · Now ditching the M11?


Ah that's unfortunate but the Sony A7CR is basically exactly what you described. I guess Fuji X-E5 but I've gone through various Fuji cameras + lenses and I think their AF capabilities and image quality left me wanting more in comparison to Sony or Nikon full frame.

I've kept the Leica M11 as my primary camera system and I use a few different point and shoot cameras for my AF needs - I decided I don't really need a more fully baked camera system right now. I think the camera size and variety of lenses available makes the M11 very versatile and relevant even without AF. I also think I can focus a lot faster with the rangefinder than EVF MF where I don't lose much from not having AF or the loss in keeper rate is tolerable.

If I did want an AF camera again for travel and more broad use, I'd pick up a Sony A7CR with the G lenses. It's really the perfect size. If I were to avoid Sony and willing to give up on size, I think the Nikon Z6III or Z8 would be next camera up for me.



Aug 30, 2025 at 12:15 PM
johnvanr
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p.3 #4 · Now ditching the M11?


tzhang4284 wrote:
Ah that's unfortunate but the Sony A7CR is basically exactly what you described. I guess Fuji X-E5 but I've gone through various Fuji cameras + lenses and I think their AF capabilities and image quality left me wanting more in comparison to Sony or Nikon full frame.

I've kept the Leica M11 as my primary camera system and I use a few different point and shoot cameras for my AF needs - I decided I don't really need a more fully baked camera system right now. I think the camera size and variety of lenses available makes the M11 very versatile
...Show more

I shoot many different things. Just this morning I did a studio shoot, using Canon gear that I hardly ever use on the street or for travel. But I find it great in the studio. Unless ind be willing to carry a mid-size mirrorless FF camera with a decent zoom everywhere, I’ll never find one system.

I agree with your overall take on the Sony A7CR, but whenever I used Sony, I missed my other gear. Using it never gave me any joy. The M11, despite my doubt, gives me a lot more satisfaction than any Sony ever did (and I’ve had a lot of them).



Aug 30, 2025 at 12:48 PM
raizans
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p.3 #5 · Now ditching the M11?


The waiting game for the M11-V demands a bit of distraction. 😇


Aug 30, 2025 at 02:24 PM
1bwana1
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p.3 #6 · Now ditching the M11?




johnvanr wrote:
No Sony for me.


And yet if you leave the name off the gear Sony makes the gear that comes closest to your Unicorn camera. Plus Sony is the core technology in all but the Canon gear.

Hard to rationalize that sort of bias.

Hard to understand that one.



Aug 30, 2025 at 03:08 PM
1bwana1
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p.3 #7 · Now ditching the M11?




johnvanr wrote:
I shoot many different things. Just this morning I did a studio shoot, using Canon gear that I hardly ever use on the street or for travel. But I find it great in the studio. Unless ind be willing to carry a mid-size mirrorless FF camera with a decent zoom everywhere, I’ll never find one system.

I agree with your overall take on the Sony A7CR, but whenever I used Sony, I missed my other gear. Using it never gave me any joy. The M11, despite my doubt, gives me a lot more satisfaction than any Sony ever did (and
...Show more

Maybe the issue isn't really gear at all?



Aug 30, 2025 at 03:10 PM
flash
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p.3 #8 · Now ditching the M11?


Sony A7CR and a few Sigma DGDN primes. Get the silver one.

I use a Q3 and Q3-43 and an A7CR with a 90mm on it as a small travel kit sometimes.

Gordon



Aug 30, 2025 at 03:46 PM
RustyBug
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p.3 #9 · Now ditching the M11?


1bwana1 wrote:
Maybe the issue isn't really gear at all?


That was kinda my earlier (albeit, not so eloquently stated) question, too.



Aug 30, 2025 at 04:51 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.3 #10 · Now ditching the M11?


johnvanr wrote:
I've never made it a secret that I got into Leica M because of the small lenses combined with FF and not so much my love of a rangefinder. I do think rangefinder focusing works well when not using lenses wide open and the lenses lend themselves well to zone focusing, which I use quite a bit on the street.

This morning I tried my M lenses on my M11, my R5 and my Z6III. I found the colors largely the same on these cameras, with the Leica actually producing the least life-like colors (I said life like, I didn't say
...Show more

I'm currently shooting the GFX100RF, X-M5, and soon to arrive X-E5. Life's too short to lug around large, heavy gear. My threshold for camera system size and weight is low these days.

The only M that still stands out to me is the M11M, which is also the one M model that would benefit the most from having an EVF due to highlight clipping. Hopefully there will be an EVF-M and an EVF-M Monochrom.

Back to the size question, shooting the X-M5 alongside the X100VI this summer was a revelation, because I realized I wanted a combination of these two cameras – 40mp, interchangeable lenses, small size, and M-like form factor and controls. I tried the X-T5, but that was still too large. So I sold the X100VI and X-T5 and am getting the X-E5. I like that the X-E5 build quality matches the GFX100RF (top plate is cut from solid aluminum block), which is a big step up for Fujifilm from past models, IMO.

Side note: The M lenses I've tried on the X-M5 seem to work well. The Shoten macro adapter I have gives perfect infinity focus at the hard stop, which is nice. And the smaller sensor uses the best part of the M lens image circle, which is especially nice for M lenses that struggle a bit at the edges on an M11 anyway. But mostly M lenses on the X body is just for fun, since there are native options that have AF and are smaller and lighter.



Aug 30, 2025 at 05:02 PM
 


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RoamingScott
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p.3 #11 · Now ditching the M11?


highdesertmesa wrote:
I'm currently shooting the GFX100RF, X-M5, and soon to arrive X-E5. Life's too short to lug around large, heavy gear. My threshold for camera system size and weight is low these days.

The only M that still stands out to me is the M11M, which is also the one M model that would benefit the most from having an EVF due to highlight clipping. Hopefully there will be an EVF-M and an EVF-M Monochrom.

Back to the size question, shooting the X-M5 alongside the X100VI this summer was a revelation, because I realized I wanted a combination of these two
...Show more

I've thought about playing with an X-E5, as there's a lot to like there. I haven't seen many real-world examples of the 23mm pancake from photographers that seem to know what they are doing, so I'd have to try it for myself. The Voigt 27 seems like a no-brainer option too if you want a more tactile outing.

I know myself well enough to know I'd miss the X100 ND mightily. The EVF being the same bad 13 year old unit is also a major fail.



Aug 30, 2025 at 06:03 PM
highdesertmesa
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p.3 #12 · Now ditching the M11?


RoamingScott wrote:
I've thought about playing with an X-E5, as there's a lot to like there. I haven't seen many real-world examples of the 23mm pancake from photographers that seem to know what they are doing, so I'd have to try it for myself. The Voigt 27 seems like a no-brainer option too if you want a more tactile outing.

I know myself well enough to know I'd miss the X100 ND mightily. The EVF being the same bad 13 year old unit is also a major fail.


The fact that they could put a slim flip-up/down EVF inside the viewfinder of the X100VI that's better than the fixed one in the X-E5 just shows it was a cost-saving (profit-making) decision as was using a lower res LCD. I'm going to look at the X-E5 as an X-M5 with a "just break glass in case of emergency" EVF for composing in super bright light. Not including weather sealing was a bigger fail IMO than the lower EVF resolution.

Since what I shoot doesn't involve stopping action most of the time, setting the X-E5 to MS+ES should work fine. If I were shooting video seriously, then yes the ND would be missed.

I'm assuming the 23 2.8 is nearly identical in character to the 27 2.8 just a wider FOV. What I'm looking forward to with the 23 over the 27 is the higher magnification at MFD. The 27 focuses almost close enough but not quite for some things. Both are nowhere near as close-focusing as the X100VI.



Aug 30, 2025 at 08:26 PM
1bwana1
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p.3 #13 · Now ditching the M11?


RustyBug wrote:
That was kinda my earlier (albeit, not so eloquently stated) question, too.


This thread reminds me of this YouTube guy who has made a career out of trying to find a gear setup that tics all his boxes and he is satisfied with. His problem is not actually gear either.

https://www.youtube.com/@ericrjennings/videos




Aug 30, 2025 at 11:02 PM
johnvanr
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p.3 #14 · Now ditching the M11?


1bwana1 wrote:
And yet if you leave the name off the gear Sony makes the gear that comes closest to your Unicorn camera. Plus Sony is the core technology in all but the Canon gear.

Hard to rationalize that sort of bias.

Hard to understand that one.


I understand people can take issue with my gear preferences and constant doubts. It's true that I could settle for one or two setups and maybe enjoy the experience. I won't go into that now, because that's a completely different topic.

But I don't think I should be attacked for my dislike of Sony. I've had Sony cameras three times, from the early A7R to the A7R4, with gaps. I've also rented the A1 and I've tried the A7CR at B&H. They just never did it for me and when I used them for a while, on a trip or so, I missed other gear I left at home. Since I do this for fun, my cameras should be fun to use.

At the moment I only have cameras I like to use. That part is not debatable.

Some of you may not agree with my choices, but that's okay. I also didn't ask anybody about whether I should buy Sony or what I should buy instead of a M11. I asked whether I missed something in thinking I should sell my M11.

Another part of this equation which isn't discussed is that I think I've been clear in that I do like my M lenses. I like to keep using them. Going Sony with Sigma or small Sony lenses doesn't address that. Even Sony with Zeiss Loxia lenses doesn't address that, because of all the three large brands' MF aids, I find Sony's the least usable.

Edited on Aug 31, 2025 at 02:49 AM · View previous versions



Aug 31, 2025 at 02:03 AM
RustyBug
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p.3 #15 · Now ditching the M11?


johnvanr wrote:
Another part of this equation which isn't discussed is that I think I've been clear in that I do like my M lenses. I like to keep using them.


Kinda goes back to some of my earlier perspective. Which, then it's just a matter of how much image degradation do you want to inflict onto your M lenses.

M Body
SL Body

Something Else - Panny / Nikon / Sony /


The question of selling your M11 is divided into two aspects. The degradation of the (2nd half of the) optical path that Leica has mated between the M platform lenses and the M platform sensor stack is what I categorize into the optics (i.e. lens / optical path).

The other aspect is the haptics of using the M body (tactile controls / size / weight / RF / LCD / Visoflex / etc.)

I still suggest you understand for yourself which of the two ... optical path retention vs. body haptics is your motivating mission / reason for divesting from the M11. Once, you clearly understand your mission, this mix / match / counter / re-counter / back / forth thing can be better put to rest. Presently, it seems like every recommendation / point / counter point is met with a degree of circular response. I think that's likely because you're unsure what your ultimate agenda really is.



Note, that I didn't mention the point about re-investing the proceeds from the sale > other gear (Hassy / M11EV / ) ... but, if that is your real mission, then I think you have to be honest with yourself, particularly as it pertains to understanding which of the above two you are going to struggle with relinquishing the most, in a quid pro quo perspective check. Sometimes it helps to flip the question from what do I want to do, to ... what do I NOT want to do. The clarity of which, can be revealing sometimes.


As to the "missed something" ... I might offer the point that the M platform optical path is optimized to function with BOTH the LENS and the BODY (micro lenses / sensor stack) as an optimal engineering of the optical path. Kicking the M platform body to curb, inherently reduces half of that optical engineering that is part of the Leica M platform design.


As to the Sony thing ... yeah, I tried it plenty of times and never gelled with it either. I hear ya on that one.




Aug 31, 2025 at 02:26 AM
johnvanr
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p.3 #16 · Now ditching the M11?


RustyBug wrote:
Kinda goes back to some of my earlier perspective. Which, then it's just a matter of how much image degradation do you want to inflict onto your M lenses.

M Body
SL Body

Something Else - Panny / Nikon / Sony /

The question of selling your M11 is divided into two aspects. The degradation of the (2nd half of the) optical path that Leica has mated between the M platform lenses and the M platform sensor stack is what I categorize into the optics (i.e. lens / optical path).

The other aspect is the haptics of using the M body (tactile controls /
...Show more

I'm not really looking at replacing the M11. I'd buy a Z7III if Nikon ever comes out with one, but largely to replace the Z6III. I'd also buy the Fuji 16mm f/1.4, but only because that's one of those few lenses that allows for MF and AF with a DoF scale on the lens.

I've tried the SL. I love the overall camera, but it's too large and heavy to replace the M. You see, I live in Vienna. I used to live here before, about 15 years ago. Then I was 'lucky' to only own the Canon 5D, so I didn't have all the choices I have now. Now as then, I lived very close to the Vienna city center and could easily go for a walk with my camera. But I never did, because the size of the kit made me not want to carry it all the time. That's me. But it's me that I have to deal with. So, now, if you find me going into the city center, it's with anything smaller than a Nikon or Canon. So, Fuji, MFT or Leica M.

For my use of the M lenses, the edges of the frame don't matter that much. I've found the M lenses to be horrible on my R6II, but perfectly fine for my use on the R5 and the Z6III.

Added later: but, yes, the M11 still renders those lenses best.



Aug 31, 2025 at 02:57 AM
johnvanr
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p.3 #17 · Now ditching the M11?


flash wrote:
Sony A7CR and a few Sigma DGDN primes. Get the silver one.

I use a Q3 and Q3-43 and an A7CR with a 90mm on it as a small travel kit sometimes.

Gordon


I often combine whatever wide or normal lens I have on a FF camera with the tiny 45mm f/1.8 (90mm eq) on my Olympus Pen f.



Aug 31, 2025 at 04:37 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.3 #18 · Now ditching the M11?


johnvanr wrote:
I understand people can take issue with my gear preferences and constant doubts. It's true that I could settle for one or two setups and maybe enjoy the experience. I won't go into that now, because that's a completely different topic.

But I don't think I should be attacked for my dislike of Sony. I've had Sony cameras three times, from the early A7R to the A7R4, with gaps. I've also rented the A1 and I've tried the A7CR at B&H. They just never did it for me and when I used them for a while, on a trip or so,
...Show more

Sony does make the smallest FF camera, but if you don't like using them what does it matter. Even though I like Sony cameras, I think there are issues with which to quibble or more than quibble with Sony--the menu system, the focus aids, the ergonomics--that not every one is going to like.

So with Sony off the board, what about Fuji X mount? Yeah, they aren't FF, but they do make what I find to be some nice small cameras. I personally like the XT-5. It could be a little smaller, but it has a nice EVF and good ergonomics that I think justify the slightly bigger size, and I have become enamored with the really nice and small Voigtlander lenses for Fuji X mount (you can get some of these for Nikon Z mount as well).They also have a nice availability of AF lenses. Perhaps you can put together a nice small camera kit using Fuji X mount? And keep in mind that if you go with Fuji X mount that you can still use your M lenses. Fuji has an M to X mount adapter that has its quirks but allows IBIS to operate properly, provides EXIF data, allows focus aids, and lets you program in some autocorrection for the lens. Of course M glass will look different on the smaller sensor, but that isn't all bad. Using the central part of the image circle will help the performance of a number of lenses and especially vignetting will be a lot better. You do lose some shallow depth of field capability, and of course field of view changes, but the corner and edge smearing that you sometimes get on mirrorless cameras with Leica M lenses is mostly a non-issue on Fuji X mount.



Aug 31, 2025 at 05:55 AM
johnvanr
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p.3 #19 · Now ditching the M11?


Steve Spencer wrote:
Sony does make the smallest FF camera, but if you don't like using them what does it matter. Even though I like Sony cameras, I think there are issues with which to quibble or more than quibble with Sony--the menu system, the focus aids, the ergonomics--that not every one is going to like.

So with Sony off the board, what about Fuji X mount? Yeah, they aren't FF, but they do make what I find to be some nice small cameras. I personally like the XT-5. It could be a little smaller, but it has a nice EVF and good
...Show more

I’m trying out the X-E5. I had the X-E4, but the 5 is a real step up. I’m using my 15mm M Voigtlander on the Fuji, among some other lenses. Most other M lenses get too long for me on the Fuji, though.

I think Fred nailed it by reminding me that the M takes practice. Maybe instead of trying to compare all these different systems, I should spend my time on practicing more with the M, before I ditch anything.




Aug 31, 2025 at 06:11 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.3 #20 · Now ditching the M11?


johnvanr wrote:
I’m trying out the X-E5. I had the X-E4, but the 5 is a real step up. I’m using my 15mm M Voigtlander on the Fuji, among some other lenses. Most other M lenses get too long for me on the Fuji, though.

I think Fred nailed it by reminding me that the M takes practice. Maybe instead of trying to compare all these different systems, I should spend my time on practicing more with the M, before I ditch anything.



I think it does make sense to give the M11 another try, but rangefinder focussing isn't for everyone. It has it limitations and drawbacks and if you don't like it then there isn't a lot of reason to have an M camera, IMO. Although like I said earlier that all may change with the Leica M11V. You very well might be a great fit for that camera.

I think the reason several of us are suggesting other systems is that you have stated that you don't like the rangefinder and some of us (definitely me) think that if you don't like using the rangefinder then it probably makes senses for most people to move on from a Leica M camera and in your case to ditch the M11. We think that you aren't missing anything, but Fred may be right what you might be missing is just more practice using the rangefinder.



Aug 31, 2025 at 06:21 AM
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