modlin wrote:
ha..
vodka from France?...that should had been the first clue
If you watch the video, that is the precise point from a marketing stand point. Products from France define luxury etc. so they intentionally made it in the cognac region even though it has zero to do w cognac!
To a significant extent yes. Unlike the Vodka in the bottle being the same between brands there are in fact meaningful differences in the actual products when it comes to Leica. Build techniques and materials, shooting experience, form factor, and measurable uniqueness in some areas of performance such as optics, However, in the end the images(equivalent to taste in Vodka) is not discernably different than many other systems. That brings the value proposition into question.
But this is not different to many premium products in today's World. Fortunately Leica products are not consumed, and have long life spans. That makes it possible to mitigate price through the used market. Properly done, this can make the end cost of shooting Leica near Zero, or even positive, Leica can be just an asset allocation scheme. This is not possible with consumables like Vodka.
IMO Leica will remain a luxury brand for many years to come even I see a few dark clouds in the Leica sky more recently which might compromise Leica's traditional reputation. Leica M11 issues when it was first released followed by scratch-gate with new M6 models, battery shortage with M 240 series, service times - I might have missed other issues here. To me it's a sign that Leica is - like many other companies out there - transforming and trying to find its own unique way balancing tradition and new technology after the pandemic with supply and personnel challenges.
Every company is trying to max out on profitability by lowering manufacturing cost and increasing sales prices - Leica is no different here. But times where manual German work was highly regarded for its outstanding quality are long gone. Additionally, Leica has to compete with companies like Cosina and now also Chinese incumbents who provide high M lens quality through robotics for much lower pricing.
I personally can see Leica at some point merging with another photo gear company like Zeiss for example to bundle up resources for a better market position. There were rumors that Zeiss attempted this already a few years back with no success.
This said, the Leica bean coffee I found in the Wetzlar Leica bookstore is great and was affordable and not overpriced. I should have bought two bags instead of only one.
retrofocus wrote:
IMO Leica will remain a luxury brand for many years to come even I see a few dark clouds in the Leica sky more recently which might compromise Leica's traditional reputation. Leica M11 issues when it was first released followed by scratch-gate with new M6 models, battery shortage with M 240 series, service times - I might have missed other issues here. To me it's a sign that Leica is - like many other companies out there - transforming and trying to find its own unique way balancing tradition and new technology after the pandemic with supply and personnel challenges.
Every company is trying to max out on profitability by lowering manufacturing cost and increasing sales prices - Leica is no different here. But times where manual German work was highly regarded for its outstanding quality are long gone. Additionally, Leica has to compete with companies like Cosina and now also Chinese incumbents who provide high M lens quality through robotics for much lower pricing.
I personally can see Leica at some point merging with another photo gear company like Zeiss for example to bundle up resources for a better market position. There were rumors that Zeiss attempted this already a few years back with no success.
This said, the Leica bean coffee I found in the Wetzlar Leica bookstore is great and was affordable and not overpriced. I should have bought two bags instead of only one. ...Show more →
Maybe Leica aims to be like the supercar makers: deliver a product that may not be as reliable as cheaper cars and will cost enormous amounts of money to just maintain it, let alone to have it fixed.
There are _many_ examples of over-hyped/-priced "luxury" booze brands, and they generally fall into one of 3 or so categories:
Entirely artificial Luxury, with a banal product that is marketed/priced as luxury (example: Grey Goose vodka)
Not even Luxury, but once the hype starts to gain traction, you can charge Luxury prices (example: Tito's Vodka, which started out as a cheap-and-cheerful product for the student crowd, but now charges a _lot_ more money for the same product)
Used-to-be Luxury, but the quality has been cut over time to maximize profits (example: Macallan Single Malt Whisky)
I have a friend who loves both Grey Goose and Clase Azul (fancy Tequla)l, both of which are unrepentantly in the first category since careful blind-tasting will reveal their pedestrian qualties. As a long-term Single Malt aficionado, I've alas had to stop buying a large number of brands that now fall into the third category.
I think for Camera gear, the first category is exemplified by over-priced gear aimed at the influencer-crowd, and most of us would probably not be tempted by it. The second category is weirdly personified in the Pentax K1000 which was originally very inexpensive but now goes for more money than corresponding professional bodies of the era. Leica falls at least partially into that third category, not really the first: With exceptions like their DRM-protected batteries, they are still mechanically high-quality/-expense products.
Leica does hype up the luxury side without adding to the substance.
Perfect example is the absolute joke hand signed quality check cards they pack with cameras and lenses. When it is blatantly obvious no-one checked anything - how else do they ship lenses with broken aperture blades, cameras that scratch film etc?
But they made sure it came in pretty packaging! Boxes with one compartment for the neck strap, another for a cable etc. That means it is high quality!
Desmolicious wrote:
Leica does hype up the luxury side without adding to the substance.
Perfect example is the absolute joke hand signed quality check cards they pack with cameras and lenses. When it is blatantly obvious no-one checked anything - how else do they ship lenses with broken aperture blades, cameras that scratch film etc?
But they made sure it came in pretty packaging! Boxes with one compartment for the neck strap, another for a cable etc. That means it is high quality!
I like all my cameras arriving wrapped half-popped bubble wrap dumped in a thin white plastic bag. If I'm lucky, last night's kebab is still there too.
Desmolicious wrote:
Leica does hype up the luxury side without adding to the substance.
Perfect example is the absolute joke hand signed quality check cards they pack with cameras and lenses. When it is blatantly obvious no-one checked anything - how else do they ship lenses with broken aperture blades, cameras that scratch film etc?
But they made sure it came in pretty packaging! Boxes with one compartment for the neck strap, another for a cable etc. That means it is high quality!
Wonder if those quality check cards are signed by autopen?
Is grey goose considered luxury? It might have a premium over Smirnoff but I wouldn't consider luxury or luxury priced... Not sure this comparison makes sense at all.
panos.v wrote:
I like all my cameras arriving wrapped half-popped bubble wrap dumped in a thin white plastic bag. If I'm lucky, last night's kebab is still there too.
Pretty sure the only people that consider Grey Goose luxury are college kids stuck drinking everclear. Kind of like Fuji shooters looking at all the grey-haired gooses shooting Leica.
A few years ago it was trendy to refer to Leica as a Veblen good - you know when people thought they were showing how clever they were by knowing what it means. For as long as I have been in photography Leica have frequently been considered to represent over priced products, behind the times, clinging to past traditions and on it went by a large mass of photographers. So I suspect it is much the same today. Personally I remain impressed though at how Leica have managed to maintain and arguably increase their devoted clientele in the face of so much competition. They have played the luxury and nostalgia card expertly.
No. I don’t think it is. There’s always been this argument among the unwashed masses that Leicas take photos that look the same as any other camera and are therefore not worth the extra money. I suppose that’s supposed to be the vodka analogy here and it’s missing the point.
Where does this type of analogy work? It works if you’re drinking the cheaper vodka at home from a dirty glass with no ice and the Goose from crystal tumbler on a rooftop bar looking over the city of Rome. Sure, you’re still drinking vodka but the experience is a bit different. This is what Leica is selling.
Is Leica overpriced, which is the essence of the argument? No. Neither is the vodka. Because goods aren’t priced on quality. Never have been. That’s a construct of advertising. The correct price is what the market will bear. Leica do this better than, say, Nikon. That has nothing to do with the images each can take. In advertising they’d say that this is selling the sizzle, not the sausage.
What Leica is selling is a sense prestige and a unique shooting experience, in the shape of a camera. And they do it well. And you can be sure the other try to do the same. Big white Canon lenses at sporting events, anyone? (thermal paint my arse…). Fuji’s retro, blah blah blah.
Shooting with a Leica, yes, even an SL, is like no other camera manufacturer. Less is more and all that. Others advertise how much they can cram in to a little black box. Leica’s box is half empty but it’s better made and they make one that’s green. While others are selling what’s in the box Leica is selling the actual box. If you’ve ever bought a nice mechanical watch you’ll quickly realise how important the box is. Bugger me, you even lose a few hundred on a Leica sale if the box is damaged.
Pretty things that make you feel good about yourself. That appeals to people. The waiting list is longer for the silver X100VI than the black one…. People like pretty things. Shoes, clothes, jewellery, watches cameras and other shiny shiny things. Leica just captures that vibe better than Sony does. That’s all. And people are happy to pay the price of entry. Leica understands that they’re selling the sizzle.
Most don’t care. They set their own level of luxury and move on like normal people. They aspire to something shiny and are happy that it’s a Fuji or a Sony, in sliver, of course. There will always be a small minority who resent that these things are out of their price range. Or they just don’t get the hype and are annoyed others are riding the hype train. Or plain tall poppy syndrome. They’re elusive though. Their pathetic, shrivelled Gollum like shapes are expertly camouflaged behind a keyboard. You almost never see them out in the wild. They hide in plain sight by wearing an Leica lover cape outside, lest they take it off and burst into flames.
