Steve Spencer wrote:
I wouldn't hold my breath for lots of innovation in focus aids with the next generation of the Leica M EV. Focus aids require really good software development and that is not Leica's strength. I think it is indeed one of its primary areas of weakness. Maybe they will devote resources to doing something innovative, but personally I just don't expect that to happen.
Indeed. They should make the camera "unbrickable" with a default boot mode and an open-source firmware and let the community improve and debug it.
It would be so much better. But the corporate mindset will not allow it: they think that the intellectual property of their crappy software, years behind any competitor is actually worth something.
Fellow dentists. I’ve seen the reviews and it seems like the chip might be slightly underpowered as the system lags. I don’t feel that this will be resolvable through firmware and is a result of trying to make the system work with the existing hardware rather than modify it for the new use case. Thoughts?
the older Leica SL2 with the same Maestro III processor is capable of 120hz refresh rate for its EVF.
davewolfs wrote:
Fellow dentists. I’ve seen the reviews and it seems like the chip might be slightly underpowered as the system lags. I don’t feel that this will be resolvable through firmware and is a result of trying to make the system work with the existing hardware rather than modify it for the new use case. Thoughts?
davewolfs wrote:
Fellow dentists. I’ve seen the reviews and it seems like the chip might be slightly underpowered as the system lags. I don’t feel that this will be resolvable through firmware and is a result of trying to make the system work with the existing hardware rather than modify it for the new use case. Thoughts?
Every other Leica M body already has a 300Hz refresh rate. It's called the optical viewfinder.
Look through it and you get zero lag, infinite battery life, and the most accurate color science ever created.
Seriously, don't we stare at digital screens enough? There's something refreshing about seeing the real world instead of pixels pretending to be it. Every time I pick up an M, I feel like I'm taking a break from all the tech that runs our lives.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Every other Leica M body already has a 300Hz refresh rate. It's called the optical viewfinder.
Look through it and you get zero lag, infinite battery life, and the most accurate color science ever created.
Seriously, don't we stare at digital screens enough? There's something refreshing about seeing the real world instead of pixels pretending to be it. Every time I pick up an M, I feel like I'm taking a break from all the tech that runs our lives.
I agree!
Shooting with an already-extant Leica M camera means that I am looking at the real world, rather than watching a small television.
I do wish for this new camera to be a commercial success. I may well want to buy M lenses, at some time in the future, and, of course, my current Leica equipment may need support.
tigerlo wrote:
I am old enough to remember what keyboard warriors say when digital M or Q came out, almost the same argument “no innovation, super expensive”.
while i was off the Leica train at the time because i was already transitioned to fully digital ...from what i remember the problem was that the technology primarily wasn't there yet for Leica...they haven't exactly had the microlens tech that would eventually solve the image corner issues which resorted them to using a crop sensor and also the infrared contamination. there were a lot of technological challenges against them.
to be fair, they did release the M9 and for all its faults...it was the first true digital Leica and i've had it twice because despite its limitations to me they made it work.
with the EV-1 they didn't have those challenges as the basis of tech has matured.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Every other Leica M body already has a 300Hz refresh rate. It's called the optical viewfinder.
Look through it and you get zero lag, infinite battery life, and the most accurate color science ever created.
Seriously, don't we stare at digital screens enough? There's something refreshing about seeing the real world instead of pixels pretending to be it. Every time I pick up an M, I feel like I'm taking a break from all the tech that runs our lives.
That's exactly why I love my Leica M film cameras! There is something cool about disconnecting from every day's tech life!
I can take photos both on film and digital M cameras with optical external viewfinders also especially when using lenses wider than 28 mm. It works, no question! But it is just more comfortable seeing the field of view inside the camera via EVF - especially when working with ultra-wides and for close-up work. Can I do this with my A7R which I already have? Absolutely, yes if the focal length is 35 mm and longer. Why do I need the EV1 then? Honestly, I don't "need" it. My photos wouldn't be better. Actually at X-Mas time coming up soon, I will suffer the same issue I have with the A7R that the LED lights show off and on depending on the frequency with the EVF. So yes, OVF/rangefinder is better here. But having an EV1 with no adapter needed for M lenses would be something cool to have. At some point in the future
Fred Miranda wrote:
Every other Leica M body already has a 300Hz refresh rate. It's called the optical viewfinder.
Look through it and you get zero lag, infinite battery life, and the most accurate color science ever created.
Seriously, don't we stare at digital screens enough? There's something refreshing about seeing the real world instead of pixels pretending to be it. Every time I pick up an M, I feel like I'm taking a break from all the tech that runs our lives.
tsk i look through my VF and it has severe astigmatism.
dalegaspi wrote:
tsk i look through my VF and it has severe astigmatism.
wait.
stupid old eyes.
An EVF can be very helpful in situations where someone values the Leica M build but finds the rangefinder difficult due to eyesight. I am 20/20 but presbyopic, so I do not wear glasses with my Leica M, although I use a +1.5 lens correction. When focusing, I can see the sharpness alignment clearly, even with a 50/1 lens wide open, giving me full accuracy. This is especially satisfying with vintage lenses where contrast and sharpness planes do not always match..
The RF does have limitations. Achieving precise focus requires a perfectly aligned rangefinder and lens, which takes patience and troubleshooting. When it works, the results are accurate and I find the process to be very satisfying.
Other limitations appear with lenses shorter than 28mm or longer than 135mm, as well as in close-up photography. I use external OVF finders for 15mm and 21mm lenses. The 135mm still performs ok, though it is not ideal for composing the scene. For telephoto work, I prefer other mirrorless cameras. With the M, I usually shoot in the 28-75mm range and rely on external OVFs for wider lenses.
Many of us were hoping Leica would take inspiration from the Fuji X-Pro line, which combines an OVF and an EVF. I used the Fuji for many years but never found it ideal, and I had hoped Leica could offer something better. An M camera with only an EVF does not appeal to me, at least with my current eyesight. Things could change in the future.
The big disappointment for me is the price. It's obviously cheaper to manufacture than the rangefinder version, and doesn't include optics like the Q. Why should it cost considerably more than a Q?
I feel this camera appealing with 3 drawback:
No smart Focus Aid (internet build up expectation)
No IBIS (to utilize EVF for long glass, not expecting it will have this)
No significant price reduction (though EVF and Electronics has cost adder)
I feel neutral about this release. In general, it is very conservative movement from Leica and aiming one goal: You got what you see with native M mount with a much smaller camera (comparing to SLx) with rangefinder style view finder.
tigerlo wrote:
I am old enough to remember what keyboard warriors say when digital M or Q came out, almost the same argument “no innovation, super expensive”.
Strange because as stated above, I had one of the first M8 worldwide and I remember in fact very different reactions:
- most were interested in the first digital M camera although it was not FF. This enthusiasm was quickly tempered by the discovery of several problems: banding, IR contamination and rangefinder precision issues.
- a few but vocal die-hard film worshipper rejected it because it was digital
When it comes to the Q, the reaction was mainly "super expensive compared to competitors but we love it because it is a pleasure to shoot with, exactly what such a camera should be so if you want it and can afford it, go for it".
It even offered frames in crop mode which maybe infuriating at some times but interesting in others.
The reaction here are very different. Nobody rejects it because it is a digital camera or even an EVF only camera but only because the execution is poor.
And because it is just a Q3 viewfinder in a M11 body but asking the user to pay for the price of the missing rangefinder in a world were EVF cameras supporting M lenses are many and for some with much better focus aids.
This is totally different, a perfectly valid criticism and has nothing to do with "keyboard warriors". BTW, using derogatory expression without stating any fact or expressing personal opinion is not the best way to contribute to a thread.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Every other Leica M body already has a 300Hz refresh rate. It's called the optical viewfinder.
Look through it and you get zero lag, infinite battery life, and the most accurate color science ever created.
Seriously, don't we stare at digital screens enough? There's something refreshing about seeing the real world instead of pixels pretending to be it. Every time I pick up an M, I feel like I'm taking a break from all the tech that runs our lives.
That’s exactly why I bought digital Ms. I wanted a ‘simple’ film camera that had a digital sensor. Leica is the only one that does that.
Putting an EVF just turns it into a full digital camera, which is fine but not what I want. If I want that I’ll use one that also has AF.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Every other Leica M body already has a 300Hz refresh rate. It's called the optical viewfinder.
Look through it and you get zero lag, infinite battery life, and the most accurate color science ever created.
Seriously, don't we stare at digital screens enough? There's something refreshing about seeing the real world instead of pixels pretending to be it. Every time I pick up an M, I feel like I'm taking a break from all the tech that runs our lives.
I think that Leica would do well to step back on this one and ask a different set of questions to get different answers.
I think there are certain assumptions that have been made by the request for EVF from the market.
Imo, a deeper dive into this request might reveal a different perspective.
That said ...
The problem is that some folks have viewing issues with the CURRENT optical RF. Does that mean that EVF is THE right solution approach? Maybe not. Maybe a different solution to that problem resides in the optical realm.
A built in optical diopter (adjustable) would like go a LONG WAY to solving the issue for some folks. Also, a built in optical magnification capability would be welcome for some. Granted, neither of those would provide the WYSIWYG for exposure / DOF ... but, I think the most significant part of the RF experience that folks struggle with is the focus patch visibility for establishing confidence in their focus (long glass, etc.).
Going the typical electronic route, with EVF and focusing aids, etc. ... maybe the better mousetrap lies in a better optical RF experience. I know that they previously had screen in diopters and magnifiers, but abandoned them, in favor of the VisioFlex. Maybe the efforts to resolve issues through electronics is not the best approach for the M series. Personally, I can think of a couple ways that they could approach this, either as a built in, or a dedicated bolt on, to offer a solution. I'm sure that with a longer / deeper / smarter engineering team, an optical solution to improved the RF experience could be developed.
Maybe this one will "miss" enough, that they'll realize the better ethos solution lies in optics more than electronics. I mean, the M is all about being tactile ... and the tactile approach to an optical adjustment could (imo) remain in that ethos.
Just a thought that maybe "back to the drawing board" is in order on the optical side of things, moreover than the fulfilling what the market requested (as perceived to be EVF, because others are EVF). Maybe the RF+ optical enhancement s a better user experience.
RustyBug wrote:
Maybe a different solution to that problem resides in the optical realm.
A built in optical diopter (adjustable) would like go a LONG WAY to solving the issue for some folks. Also, a built in optical magnification capability would be welcome for some.
I have p&s film cameras that have built in optical diopters. I have film slrs that have built in diopters. My non Leica digital cameras have built in diopters.
Heck, Leica’s LTM cameras in essence had built in optical diopters!
