Not joking, Leica’s and Hasselblad’s challenge is that they need to keep convincing enough people that beautiful design, unique ergonomics, unique color science, stellar lens performance and historical nostalgia are worth the premium over more pedestrian competitors who offer more features at lower prices.
Part of that challenge is holding on to traditional designs, like the M and the 500 series.
Premium manufacturers have no problems doing this. Same for cars, watches and handbags.
johnvanr wrote:
Leica’s and Hasselblad’s challenge is that they need to keep convincing enough people that beautiful design, unique ergonomics, unique color science, stellar lens performance and historical nostalgia are worth the premium over more pedestrian competitors who offer more features at lower prices.
No idea about Hasselblad but Leica seem to be doing so just fine. The Leica Q is a huge success despite its price. I for one do not want "more features" in a camera. Except for my M11, they all have far too much already.
johnvanr wrote:
Not joking, Leica’s and Hasselblad’s challenge is that they need to keep convincing enough people that beautiful design, unique ergonomics, unique color science, stellar lens performance and historical nostalgia are worth the premium over more pedestrian competitors who offer more features at lower prices.
Part of that challenge is holding on to traditional designs, like the M and the 500 series.
This year Leica is celebrating 100 years of being up to that challenge.
In various discussions about future Leica M mount cameras I see the issue of IBIS implementation brought up.
In an EVF body, implementation is possible while maintaining an M size body, albeit with serious internal messing around and moving the lens mount out about 5+mm. The sensor plane just has to be moved forward from the back of the camera to have today's typical gyroscopically controlled floating sensor type of IBIS implementation. At least this is theoretically possible, as long as the space allocation for other necessities inside the body allow it. However, for a rangefinder camera similar to the M11 series or a putative M12, that isn't possible because the geometry of the rangefinder doesn't allow the image plane and lens mount to be pushed suffiiciently forward while keeping the body of reasonable thickness (and I'm not talking about M240 thickness here). Of course, there are probably people working on possible solutions right now, but I can't see it happening in practice.
For people thinking of examples of cameras that have IBIS that are roughly of similar size and shape, like the Sony A7c series: have a look at where the image plane is, where the mount position of an adapted M mount lens is and the thickness of the camera body and total package thickness front to back. That's no Leica M!
Understand the desire for IBIS in an M, but then it would be like most other cameras except for it being a MF, EVF, IBIS included camera. There is something missing here. Oh, it is still a MF camera of yesteryear.
Are not we asking for something that is better suited to more modern cameras?
Henning wrote:
In various discussions about future Leica M mount cameras I see the issue of IBIS implementation brought up.
In an EVF body, implementation is possible while maintaining an M size body, albeit with serious internal messing around and moving the lens mount out about 5+mm. The sensor plane just has to be moved forward from the back of the camera to have today's typical gyroscopically controlled floating sensor type of IBIS implementation. At least this is theoretically possible, as long as the space allocation for other necessities inside the body allow it. However, for a rangefinder camera similar to the M11 series or a putative M12, that isn't possible because the geometry of the rangefinder doesn't allow the image plane and lens mount to be pushed suffiiciently forward while keeping the body of reasonable thickness (and I'm not talking about M240 thickness here). Of course, there are probably people working on possible solutions right now, but I can't see it happening in practice.
For people thinking of examples of cameras that have IBIS that are roughly of similar size and shape, like the Sony A7c series: have a look at where the image plane is, where the mount position of an adapted M mount lens is and the thickness of the camera body and total package thickness front to back. That's no Leica M!...Show more →
Leica said that they could add IBIS to M if they remove the mechanical shutter.
algrove wrote:
Understand the desire for IBIS in an M, but then it would be like most other cameras except for it being a MF, EVF, IBIS included camera. There is something missing here. Oh, it is still a MF camera of yesteryear.
Are not we asking for something that is better suited to more modern cameras?
Adding IBIS doesn’t change any relevant characteristics of an M. It may remove some challenges which do not lead to better images anyway.
algrove wrote:
Understand the desire for IBIS in an M, but then it would be like most other cameras except for it being a MF, EVF, IBIS included camera.
You mean except for the fact that we have a clear viewfinder with frames, 100% manual focus, the smallest FF lenses on the market?
algrove wrote:
Are not we asking for something that is better suited to more modern cameras?
Quite the opposite: when I was shooting film with a M, I was able to get sharp images at low speed, 1/4th to 1/8th of a second with a 35mm.
Digital and especially high-res sensors made us lost this. Ok, we gained high-iso but I had sometimes blurry images with the M11 even at 1/2f. So IBIS would give us back something we had.
algrove wrote
Are not we asking for something that is better suited to more modern cameras?
Adding IBIS in many cases will allow us to shoot 3 or 4 stops slower shutter speed. We can then also shoot 3 or 4 stops lower ISO, or 3 or 4 stops stopped down on aperture for greater DOF. Or any combination of the above. The result will be meaningfully higher image quality. Since when is image quality no an M thing.
"I [Leica Rumors] received reliable information that Leica has tested IBIS (in-body image stabilization) for the upcoming M12 camera, but I’m not aware of the test’s outcome or whether IBIS will be implemented in the next M model. The Leica M12 is rumored to be announced in 2026."
SrMi wrote:
Leica said that they could add IBIS to M if they remove the mechanical shutter.
Interesting approach to including IBIS. The move from mechanical to electronic shutter was a bit traumatic for the Leica community, but everyone survived and most eventually accepted the change. Personally, a lower resolution sensor with a global shutter is a rather attractive option. I’m guessing that this will never happen and if it does, it would probably be in the SL lineup.
The other option of adding 5mm to the lens mount only would break up the beautiful ‘M’ lines, but I suspect that most of us would eventually accept such a compromise and is the more likely approach to providing IBIS. IBIS is incredibly useful for travel photography without a tripod. This is part of what makes the X2D & X2Dii so attractive. The M11 Monochrom takes another approach to providing low light functionality and it has become my favorite camera.
whiteonline wrote:
The shutter is on the wrong side of the sensor to accommodate space needed for the IBIS mechanism.
The statement came from Stefan Daniels in an interview:
But it isn't ruled out that the image stabilizer could be integrated into the M at some point, for example, if we would do without the mechanical shutter and so the necessary space would be available again.
bwcolor wrote:
Interesting approach to including IBIS. The move from mechanical to electronic shutter was a bit traumatic for the Leica community, but everyone survived and most eventually accepted the change.
All M Leica cameras have a mechanical shutter; no model has moved from mechanical to electronic shutter. M11 has added an electronic shutter for very high shutter speeds.
Personally, a lower resolution sensor with a global shutter is a rather attractive option. I’m guessing that this will never happen and if it does, it would probably be in the SL lineup.
I believe a stacked sensor would be a better solution than a global shutter.
The other option of adding 5mm to the lens mount only would break up the beautiful ‘M’ lines, but I suspect that most of us would eventually accept such a compromise and is the more likely approach to providing IBIS. IBIS is incredibly useful for travel photography without a tripod. This is part of what makes the X2D & X2Dii so attractive. The M11 Monochrom takes another approach to providing low light functionality and it has become my favorite camera.
1bwana1 wrote:
This year Leica is celebrating 100 years of being up to that challenge.
The Q is, but there is no FF competition. The S and SL lines probably not. The M is, but the question will be if that remains so if it gets the EVF. You and I like the D-Lux 8 because of that Leica interface, but most others think of that camera as overpriced old tech not worth considering.
