olegkin wrote:
Leica setup their stores next to Hermes and Louis Vuitton when they have a chance. If anything, they’ll double down on making even more expensive stuff.
At some point, though, that leaves an opening for another player. It isn’t worth the hassle to compete with Leica on producing M rangefinder because the production cost is too high and the market too small. Plus, only Leica makes those rangefinders.
Replace the rangefinder with a third-party EVF, undercut Leica and you can still make a bundle.
LBJ2 wrote:
I am not a potential customer, However if I were, my preference would also be M11 EV1, not necessarily a Q body. With that said, if Leica did go the Q form factor route I can't wait to hear/read the interviews on why they went with the Q form factor instead of the M11.
I doubt that this will be the case of using the Q form factor. It is much easier and cheaper from a manufacturing POV to put the formerly external M 11 EVF into the rangefinder path to replace with and leaving the M11 mostly untouched for anything else other than change in software and focus menus. Changing the manufacturing line to make a Q with exchangeable M mount is more cumbersome and expensive IMO.
johnvanr wrote:
At some point, though, that leaves an opening for another player. It isn’t worth the hassle to compete with Leica on producing M rangefinder because the production cost is too high and the market too small. Plus, only Leica makes those rangefinders.
Replace the rangefinder with a third-party EVF, undercut Leica and you can still make a bundle.
Mentioned in other Leica threads, I believe that the M11 EV1 might open even more so doors to Chinese manufacturers to copy this model and sell it for less than 1/4th of the Leica price. It will be much easier to copy than a rangefinder based M with lots more mechanical parts. If the market would be too small, all these Chinese manufacturers like TTArtisan, 7 Artisans, DJ Optics, Light Lens Lab etc etc wouldn't do what they currently do - M lenses. I am quite certain it is just a matter of few years to see a Chinese M camera copy.
I guess Leica will continue to have an M shaped body camera for years to come. So if they plan a transition from OVF/RF to EVF, they will still keep the M body as is today.
In the end, this camera body shape is their trademark.
retrofocus wrote:
Mentioned in other Leica threads, I believe that the M11 EV1 might open even more so doors to Chinese manufacturers to copy this model and sell it for less than 1/4th of the Leica price. It will be much easier to copy than a rangefinder based M with lots more mechanical parts. If the market would be too small, all these Chinese manufacturers like TTArtisan, 7 Artisans, DJ Optics, Light Lens Lab etc etc wouldn't do what they currently do - M lenses. I am quite certain it is just a matter of few years to see a Chinese M camera copy. ...Show more →
Could be, but with the margins of this new camera at Leica prices, Zeiss/Contax, Canon and Nikon could also use their brands to compete. The M mount, to my knowledge, is no longer protected.
catacore wrote:
Reading all the above, and knowing myself after shooting Leica M for about a year, I would guess that people shooting M system have a different mind set than those shooting everything else, including M (or other MF) lenses on other (more complex) camera bodies. Shooting an M camera is a real joy (for many). Now the question is how much this new M-EV1 camera would alter off this joy (if any) and the balance of than joy altering vs focusing help that it would/might bring.
To me, the key differentiator is the presumed simplicity of Leica cameras, one they share with Hasselblad cameras. They focus the controls on what matters most in most shooting situations.
johnvanr wrote:
Could be, but with the margins of this new camera at Leica prices, Zeiss/Contax, Canon and Nikon could also use their brands to compete. The M mount, to my knowledge, is no longer protected.
They wouldn't - it would compete with their own camera environments. Chinese manufacturers - especially those already experienced building M lenses - start from a clean slate since they haven't made any camera yet. We have seen what happens when Zeiss last time tried with the Pixii - too expensive and failed selling well. To make a M-mount camera competitive, the same strategy needs to be used as what was done with third party M-lenses - offer decent similar quality for 1/10th of the Leica price sometimes. It won't be the same for sure but very likely still good enough IMO.
retrofocus wrote:
Mentioned in other Leica threads, I believe that the M11 EV1 might open even more so doors to Chinese manufacturers to copy this model and sell it for less than 1/4th of the Leica price. It will be much easier to copy than a rangefinder based M with lots more mechanical parts. If the market would be too small, all these Chinese manufacturers like TTArtisan, 7 Artisans, DJ Optics, Light Lens Lab etc etc wouldn't do what they currently do - M lenses. I am quite certain it is just a matter of few years to see a Chinese M camera copy....Show more →
Why do you think they need to wait for Leica to release the M-EV1 before making (or as you say copying) their own? A French camera designer has already been selling an M-mount camera with a rangefinder for years. If Chinese manufacturers wanted to make a mirrorless M-mount camera with an EVF, they could have done so long ago...there's no groundbreaking technology holding them back. It's more likely they simply prefer focusing on lens production rather than getting into the far more complex and competitive camera market.
johnvanr wrote:
At some point, though, that leaves an opening for another player. It isn’t worth the hassle to compete with Leica on producing M rangefinder because the production cost is too high and the market too small. Plus, only Leica makes those rangefinders.
Replace the rangefinder with a third-party EVF, undercut Leica and you can still make a bundle.
I own two Zeiss Ikon’s and one Bessa, so Leica has seen competition previously and had enough sparkle that I also purchased used Leicas. I currently own five used and two new Leicas. So, competition is expected and will work out for Leica.
retrofocus wrote:
I doubt that this will be the case of using the Q form factor. It is much easier and cheaper from a manufacturing POV to put the formerly external M 11 EVF into the rangefinder path to replace with and leaving the M11 mostly untouched for anything else other than change in software and focus menus. Changing the manufacturing line to make a Q with exchangeable M mount is more cumbersome and expensive IMO.
Not the first time rumors, even popular rumors got it wrong...or partially right. If I remember correctly the initial LSI meeting w/ Stefan Daniel requesting an EVF M, the M11 w/ built-in EVF was discussed. Same with the followup LSI survey.
If something has changed since e.g. Q body instead, I'm sure there's a more than interesting tale to tell.
bwcolor wrote:
Leica in Busan South Korea shares a wall with the local Ferrari dealership. Is Leica an engineering driven company, or is it driven by marketing.
Do they have to choose? Maybe like Ferrari, the are an engineering company with excellent marketing.
So they build the best products they can and they know that some percentage of their customers will buy them for the brand, not to use them.
Who cares? Their money is the same.
BTW, in the 80s, Leica said that they sold one third to pros, one third to "advanced amateurs" and one third to people who bought the red dot on the camera. The figures maybe different nowadays
But this is true for every high-end market, HiFi, wine, photo, cars: most of your customers don't need your top product and won't really see the difference.
I probably am not part of the target audience for the M EV1 but for me and FWIW 3 conditions would need to be met to buy into the M EV1:
1) Focus Confirmation. Only Peaking and Magnification would not cut it for me.
2) IBIS. Being used to the IBIS of the X2D and now the X2Dii I would have a hard time giving that up.
3) A price point lower than what has been rumored so far. I paid $7.4K for the X2Dii. I quite frankly would not pay the same amount for an EVF-based MF only camera.
My guess (with what I have read so far) is that none of these 3 conditions will be satisfied (with V1) but also that probably the intended target audience might not care as much about these as I do.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Why do you think they need to wait for Leica to release the M-EV1 before making (or as you say copying) their own? A French camera designer has already been selling an M-mount camera with a rangefinder for years. If Chinese manufacturers wanted to make a mirrorless M-mount camera with an EVF, they could have done so long ago...there's no groundbreaking technology holding them back. It's more likely they simply prefer focusing on lens production rather than getting into the far more complex and competitive camera market.
Why? Because it is easier to copy from something existent than building it from the ground up new. They might study how the electronics work in the M11 EV1, where possible failure points are to improve on etc etc. They did the same with the German car industry settling down in China 20 years ago.
A third party manufactured M will only be successful on the market if it is significantly cheaper than a similar Leica M feature-wise. Otherwise why would somebody jump ship? Zeiss made exactly this experience with the Pixii. That's why I have given up such innovation of a third-party made EVF-M will ever come from a western or Japanese company.
3) A price point lower than what has been rumored so far. I paid $7.4K for the X2Dii. I quite frankly would not pay the same amount for an EVF-based MF only camera.
That certainly put things in perspective. I wouldn’t replace the Hasselblad with any other full color capable digital camera. Now, the M11M is a different matter. For me, this is a must have camera. Of course, this statement alone reveals that I have a very limited set of needs, but I also have non-digital options.
retrofocus wrote:
Why? Because it is easier to copy from something existent than building it from the ground up new. They might study how the electronics work in the M11 EV1, where possible failure points are to improve on etc etc. They did the same with the German car industry settling down in China 20 years ago.
A third party manufactured M will only be successful on the market if it is significantly cheaper than a similar Leica M feature-wise. Otherwise why would somebody jump ship? Zeiss made exactly this experience with the Pixii. That's why I have given up such innovation of a third-party made EVF-M will ever come from a western or Japanese company. ...Show more →
There are a lot of assumptions here, and I just don't buy it. If your argument were true, they could've copied the original Leica Q more than 10 years ago...it's been on the market the whole time. They could easily have adapted it for the M-mount (there is no law stopping them) and sold it at a fraction of the price, just like you mentioned. There's no breakthrough technology holding them back.
The real limiting factor is probably the sensor (its source, cost, and supply chain) not the mechanical or electronic design. That's what makes these projects far less appealing for small or mid-size Chinese companies compared to simply producing lenses.
Fred Miranda wrote:
There are a lot of assumptions here, and I just don't buy it. If your argument were true, they could've copied the original Leica Q more than 10 years ago...it's been on the market the whole time. They could easily have adapted it for the M-mount (there is no law stopping them) and sold it at a fraction of the price, just like you mentioned. There's no breakthrough technology holding them back.
The real limiting factor is probably the sensor (its source, cost, and supply chain) not the mechanical or electronic design. That's what makes these projects far less appealing for small or mid-size Chinese companies compared to simply producing lenses....Show more →
The Leica Q doesn't use M-lenses which they already make - might be too far out of their scope/target area. Also, it is just another mirrorless camera like so many others already existent in the market. But an EVF-M camera is more unique - very often companies look for cross-overs in technology they have (in this case M lenses) and other to vest/buy/expand on. All these companies in China are government subsidized, and can therefore make good technology investment (i. e. robotics to make lenses) and be very price-competitive in the intl. markets with still excellent built and optical lens quality.
I definitely don't underestimate the potential here with Chinese companies. IMO they have now reached a competitiveness level where established western companies can often only dream of.
retrofocus wrote:
The Leica Q doesn't use M-lenses which they already make - might be too far out of their scope/target area. Also, it is just another mirrorless camera like so many others already existent in the market. But an EVF-M camera is more unique - very often companies look for cross-overs in technology they have (in this case M lenses) and other to vest/buy/expand on. All these companies in China are government subsidized, and can therefore make good technology investment (i. e. robotics to make lenses) and be very price-competitive in the intl. markets with still excellent built and optical lens quality.
I definitely don't underestimate the potential here with Chinese companies. IMO they have now reached a competitiveness level where established western companies can often only dream of. ...Show more →
I hope they are smart enough not to invest a large amount of capital into such a limited niche market.
retrofocus wrote:
The Leica Q doesn't use M-lenses which they already make - might be too far out of their scope/target area. Also, it is just another mirrorless camera like so many others already existent in the market. But an EVF-M camera is more unique - very often companies look for cross-overs in technology they have (in this case M lenses) and other to vest/buy/expand on. All these companies in China are government subsidized, and can therefore make good technology investment (i. e. robotics to make lenses) and be very price-competitive in the intl. markets with still excellent built and optical lens quality.
I definitely don't underestimate the potential here with Chinese companies. IMO they have now reached a competitiveness level where established western companies can often only dream of. ...Show more →
I think Chinese companies can put together a good digital camera but there's really no market for a Chinese copycat of a mirrorless camera. The legacy market is well saturated by the big Japanese players at affordable price points and the cutting edge is not a mirrorless camera but something more like the DJI Pocket 3 or camera drones, which is where they really dominate already. Also, this is not really a strategic industry for China so I don't see a lot of money or strategic planning going into this.
Leica works because it's a prestige product - particularly the M cameras. This means that their average customers buy it because it's Leica, and not because it's an M-mount digital camera. Most cheapskates can get by with adapting lenses to their mirrorless camera and wouldn't bother buying a Chinese mirrorless camera anyways with a dedicated M-mount since you can just throw an adapter on to your $1500 full frame camera.
tzhang4284 wrote:
I think Chinese companies can put together a good digital camera but there's really no market for a Chinese copycat of a mirrorless camera. The legacy market is well saturated by the big Japanese players at affordable price points and the cutting edge is not a mirrorless camera but something more like the DJI Pocket 3 or camera drones, which is where they really dominate already. Also, this is not really a strategic industry for China so I don't see a lot of money or strategic planning going into this.
Leica works because it's a prestige product - particularly the M cameras. This means that their average customers buy it because it's Leica, and not because it's an M-mount digital camera. Most cheapskates can get by with adapting lenses to their mirrorless camera and wouldn't bother buying a Chinese mirrorless camera anyways with a dedicated M-mount since you can just throw an adapter on to your $1500 full frame camera. ...Show more →
If I could get my hands on an EVF-based third-party M camera where I don't need to adapt M lenses to another mount like for other branded mirrorless cameras AND have the certainty that the M lenses work nicely with the FF sensor in it, plus that such camera comes for 1/4th or less of the price of the M11 EV1, I would get it for sure. I think there would be definitely quite a market for such camera - a non Leica based optimized M-mount mirrorless camera.
bwcolor wrote:
I hope they are smart enough not to invest a large amount of capital into such a limited niche market.
Then how do all the Chinese companies survive who focus on making only M-lenses? This is even a smaller niche market just with the lenses - and still obviously profitable even with much lower than Leica M prices.
