The catch is that they are only useful for cropping. With Sony they are custom, so you can make them for any crop you want, but I could see on a Leica M11-V, let's say you mount a 21mm lens, you get frame lines that show a crop for 28mm and 35mm, or you mount a 28mm and you get frame lines that show a crop for 35mm and 50mm, or you could mount a 50mm and get frame lines for 75mm and 90mm. I think such frame lines would be useful on a Leica M11V, but they wouldn't work quite the same as frame lines on a rangefinder and you couldn't see more of the scene than the image is projecting on the sensor. Still, if you are ok with a bit of cropping (and that is a big if) you could always shoot a wider lens, see more of the scene and have frame lines to help you crop to your desired frame....Show more →
Interesting. What you say makes complete sense — and, yes, I do think it would be a big ‘if’. Thank you for taking the time to explain that.
raizans wrote:
Soon we’ll be seeing threads by people comparing the Fujifilm GFX100RF and the Leica Q3, just as we see threads comparing the GFX cameras with FF mirrorless. We already see threads comparing Hasselblad X and Leica M. Gearheads consider all of their options and obsess about everything.
The Hasselblad X2d and the Leica M shouldn't even be compared in the same sentence-
You shoot Hassy for the medium format sensor/IQ or to grab a unique 907x and use it with film backs/vintage lenses.
You shoot Leica for the catalog of M lenses spanning decades mixed with a rewarding body/system and FF IQ.
Can you compare them, sure-Its a bit pointless but you can. They aren't the same system by miles and anyone really looking, knows that.
Look at this thread, lots of people want one and you will have to get in line immediately- It will sell like nothing Leica has released before.
RustyRus wrote:
The Hasselblad X2d and the Leica M shouldn't even be compared in the same sentence-
You shoot Hassy for the medium format sensor/IQ or to grab a unique 907x and use it with film backs/vintage lenses.
You shoot Leica for the catalog of M lenses spanning decades mixed with a rewarding body/system and FF IQ.
Can you compare them, sure-Its a bit pointless but you can. They aren't the same system by miles and anyone really looking, knows that.
Look at this thread, lots of people want one and you will have to get in line immediately- It will sell like nothing Leica has released before. ...Show more →
Depending on the MF implementation I may want one, but I have never bought a Leica new and doubt I ever will. In the meantime, my Nikon works nicely with those M lenses for probably a quarter of the price of this Leica and it can do a bunch of other tricks as well, like AF and IS.
flash wrote:
There are no framelines. Or outside FL viewing. It's exactly like the VF2 on the M11. Hopefully with pip focusing and a higher res EVF. It is a manual focus mirrorless camera.
EVF's have no issues with focus shift. One of the advantages. Think like the Fuji XE cameras with no AF.
If it has pip focusing I'm in. Otherwise not so sure. Wouldn't say no to brass gloss paint either but that won't happen. It needs to be good for focusing otherwise the XPro4/XE5 will eat it alive. 40MP is all most need/want anyway.
Gordon
Thank you for replying. But aren’t the lines on the fourth and fifth images in Fred’s original post (the second pair of EVF ‘screenshots’) frame lines of sorts? Quite possibly simulated, granted. When I made this post this morning, I was simply wondering how the outside FL viewing (as you put it) would work. Steve’s answer — that it could, in effect, be a crop — is clearly one possibility. Perhaps quite likely, if the image is genuine, but this is clearly all just speculation for now. Thanks, anyway.
The catch is that they are only useful for cropping. With Sony they are custom, so you can make them for any crop you want, but I could see on a Leica M11-V, let's say you mount a 21mm lens, you get frame lines that show a crop for 28mm and 35mm, or you mount a 28mm and you get frame lines that show a crop for 35mm and 50mm, or you could mount a 50mm and get frame lines for 75mm and 90mm. I think such frame lines would be useful on a Leica M11V, but they wouldn't work quite the same as frame lines on a rangefinder and you couldn't see more of the scene than the image is projecting on the sensor. Still, if you are ok with a bit of cropping (and that is a big if) you could always shoot a wider lens, see more of the scene and have frame lines to help you crop to your desired frame....Show more →
I'm not familiar with Sony's Custom Grid Lines, but I've read that users have to pay $149 to activate this feature via a "license". Do you know why this feature isn't compatible with the A7CR or if Sony has mentioned whether it will be available through a firmware update in the future?
Mar 23, 2025 at 03:03 PM
Steve Spencer Online • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
Fred Miranda wrote:
I'm not familiar with Sony's Custom Grid Lines, but I've read that users have to pay $149 to activate this feature via a "license". Do you know why this feature isn't compatible with the A7CR or if Sony has mentioned whether it will be available through a firmware update in the future?
I don't know why it is only available for some cameras (A7s III, A1, A7r V, A7 IV, A9 III, & A1 II), and yes you do have to pay $150 for it for each camera. They say nothing about whether they will make it available for other cameras in the future. Personally, I think it is a cool feature and although I find the cost pretty obscene I am likely going to get it.
I don't think I am interested in the Leica M11 V, so I am planning on getting a Kolari thin sensor mod, add these custom frame lines, pretty much permanently attach the TT artisans 6-bit adapter, and dedicate my Sony A7r V to shooting Leica M mount lenses. It has a great sensor, great IBIS, I love the EVF, I very much like the rear screen, and while I generally dislike the menus I almost never use them, and with your white balance adjustment I think I will be quite happy with this setup.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Your logic should also apply when comparing APS-C to full-frame cameras. I think it makes more sense to compare cameras based on sensor size and capabilities rather than price.
You're essentially saying that if the M11-V doesn't match the features of a medium-format camera, it will be dead on arrival, simply because their prices will be similar...
The differentiator currently for £8k stills bodies is
1. an optical Vs electronic finder
2. Body size
Item 1 is significant enough to put aside all other parameters. Basically if you want an optical finder the M11 is the only camera on sale with one now (in the top end of cameras, I don't mean whatever dSLRs may still be around).
With the 11v the list becomes:
1. Body size
2. sensor size
And they sort of have more equal weighting now.
Anyway, we're just hypothesising till this thing gets released!
The M11 range uses a variant of the Sony sensor without the PDAF array. With this in mind, PDAF based features will require a completely different sensor and likely a major redesign of the lowest level foundational firmware and programming.
It's not inconceivable, but could be unlikely for middle lifecycle camera in the M11 series. If that were to happen, the new camera would also then be isolated from all of the other M11 variants moving forward wrt firmware updates, etc. With that said, just the redesign of the physical interface (removal of buttons, ISO dial, etc) would also necessitate a different firmware foundation (think SL compared to M), so if the mockups are correct, this problem may have already been solved.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Your logic should also apply when comparing APS-C to full-frame cameras. I think it makes more sense to compare cameras based on sensor size and capabilities rather than price.
You're essentially saying that if the M11-V doesn't match the features of a medium-format camera, it will be dead on arrival, simply because their prices will be similar...
Don't tell him there are FF cameras with AF and IBIS for way less than the price of a new M11.
panos.v wrote:
The differentiator currently for £8k stills bodies is
1. an optical Vs electronic finder
2. Body size
Item 1 is significant enough to put aside all other parameters. Basically if you want an optical finder the M11 is the only camera on sale with one now (in the top end of cameras, I don't mean whatever dSLRs may still be around).
With the 11v the list becomes:
1. Body size
2. sensor size
And they sort of have more equal weighting now.
Anyway, we're just hypothesising till this thing gets released!
To me, it’s actually about the small FF lenses. I have forever wanted and still want a digital version of the Contax G system.
The PDAF pixels are always there they're just mapped out in firmware. Sony aren't making a different pixel layout just for Leica.
josh-himes wrote:
The M11 range uses a variant of the Sony sensor without the PDAF array. With this in mind, PDAF based features will require a completely different sensor and likely a major redesign of the lowest level foundational firmware and programming.
It's not inconceivable, but could be unlikely for middle lifecycle camera in the M11 series. If that were to happen, the new camera would also then be isolated from all of the other M11 variants moving forward wrt firmware updates, etc. With that said, just the redesign of the physical interface (removal of buttons, ISO dial, etc) would also necessitate a different firmware foundation (think SL compared to M), so if the mockups are correct, this problem may have already been solved. ...Show more →
RustyRus wrote:
The Hasselblad X2d and the Leica M shouldn't even be compared in the same sentence-
Very different cameras, same buyers though...
And the X1Dii with the 38V or the 55V was truly an M killer... I pretty much stopped using the M entirely when getting the 38V and never felt a desire whatsoever for the M11.
Now that Fuji has called the GFX100RF their rangefinder “style” camera, with their tech person pointing to the finder in the YouTube video, some may accept that moniker and not bat an eye when the M11V comes out as a rangefinder camera.
On the other topic of M12, perhaps just a use case of one, I would welcome a 100mp sensor on the M12, for the freedom of cropping when I can’t zoom with my feet or have the time to switch lenses on the fly.
Have we seen any pictures of the front of the M11-V? I look at things like frame lines outside the TTL view one normally sees, that fall outside the FOV most lenses project onto the image sensor, and remember that my iPhone has three cameras in a very small space that work in (some form of) concert. Could Leica use a small wider FOV camera in one of the spaces that currently house the Optical VF/Rangefinder to provide the classic larger frame to the EVF and then layer in the TTL for focusing/view within the frame lines? I imagine that would require computing horsepower the M11 likely lacks, but I'm trying to think outside of the box here. It seems the discussions about an EVF M assume the EVF is showing only what the lens puts on to the sensor, like the MILC that descended from the SLR, and I wonder if we're overlooking alternative approaches to projecting onto the EVF.
I am not sure that Leica will concentrate on mimicking the M focusing experience in an EVF based M body.
The easiest body currently available to focus M lenses on is the SL2/SL3 (s). With it's ex excellent built in diopter even those who are aging out of comfortably using the M range finder can easily use an SL.
If Leica can make as good an experience in an M form factor, native M mount, and M workflow I am confident the camera will attract a profitable user base. I am not ready to give up the true RF experience of my M cameras personaly. But if the day comes where my eyesight makes RF too difficult I would happily switch to such a camera.
I would personaly prefer a a great EVF experience to some artificial RF mimicking experience.
I would love a hybrid viewfinder like Fuji has, but I don't think Leica will go in that direction, at least not yet. I expect this is essentially an M11 with a visoflex in place of the optical finder. That product will be simple to explain and understand; it will sell well.
I enjoy having both an electronic and optical finder available when shooting lenses that have more character, like the 35 SR. Sometimes it's easier to focus in the optical finder, while the electronic finder delivers a handy preview of the lens' optical effects. So a hybrid approach built into an M body would be of great utility.
I think you are not alone. If it does get implemented, it won’t be with a real rangefinder, with all ots complexity, but more like the optical view with focusing aids like the Fuji, which is, of course, not a rangefinder at all.
Nevertheless, just as you say, the optical view with framelines and an area outside the shooting area can be very pleasant to use and very useful.
