p.4 #1 · Your experience having a Sony camera converted to Monochrome?
ATPphoto wrote:
Absolutely 100% yes
I like the limiting factor, the constraints.
It's as fun to shoot as it is to edit and print!
From a “fun to shoot” perspective, what’s different shooting a monochrome camera versus shooting a colour camera with the viewfinder set to monochrome?
p.4 #2 · Your experience having a Sony camera converted to Monochrome?
shadow9d9 wrote:
Ok, how about a different approach.
Ignoring technical benefits, do people find it FUN to use a monochrom sensor because it forces you to look exclusively in a black and white photo way?
It's another aspect of photography, which I consider to be one of the top three ways to have fun, so sure. Like I said earlier, it's not a shortcut to great mono photos. It's an opportunity to learn monochrome digital photography from start to finish; to take everything I've learned about working with mono film and see what translates and what requires modification for the new medium. And also to take what I know about processing color digital files and what translates and what other tools in the software I need to learn when I have to rescue a shot I didn't get right in camera. The goal, for me, is to always get as much right in camera as I can, color or mono, so the argument that processing color conversions is somehow "the way" rings false to me.
I did a lot of hand-wringing over the decision. I had strong arguments for doing it; the aforementioned desire to get it right in camera and the fact that I see color more often as a distraction than a necessary element to a photo. It's not that I don't like color photography. My other three stills cameras still have their CFAs. And then I did a lot of hand-wringing over the type of conversion. My goal was to have a camera that played well with the manual film-era lenses I love, and I was very interested in having access to the IR spectrum, so the bare sensor conversion made sense from that perspective. It came with a lot of unanswered questions about longevity.
I'm glad I took the leap. I wound up with the educational experience I hoped it'd be, and I have a camera I enjoy using just a little bit more than the others. The only time I'm without it now is on wildlife hikes. It's satisfying in ways that make packing and working with the filters a non-issue in my eyes. I wouldn't expect that to be everyone's experience.
p.4 #3 · Your experience having a Sony camera converted to Monochrome?
Nifty Fifty wrote:
Or to put it another way: Is the Mono a camera for weak-willed photographers? ;-)
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gdanmitchell wrote:
wil
I don’t understand the need to have a camera that “forces” me to see the world in a particular way. If I prefer to “see” that way, I can do it with a full-color digital camera, either by pre-visualizing how the image will look in the end (which is exactly how we did it back when we actually put monochrome film in our cameras) or by setting the camera’s display mode to monochrome and shooting raw.
In general, when it comes to the notion that crippling a camera in some way makes one more creative, I think there’s a misconception about what this means. There’s also no evidence among the work of great photographers that using less versatile equipment makes photographers better — there are outstanding photographers using simple systems and outstanding photographers using very versatile gear.
One odd thing about the monochrome sensor fetish is that lots of folks who “go there” don’t really replicate how we shot film back in the day. For example, I used to carry around a whole set of colored filters (plus a CP) when I shot film, since the “color balance” of monochrome film often did not give us the optimum total characteristics and because the ONLY way we could adjust that was by applying these filers. But today, unless you are replicating that part of BW film photography and using those physical filters on the camera, you are giving up a form of controlling image quality that was _central_ to BW film photography… while if you bring a full color raw file into post you can still do that.
I suspect that, to some degree, the monochrome conversion thing is about feeling special and looking for some kind of photographic magic bullet that will make the buyer feel that they have separated themselves from the pack.
There’s another aspect to it that seems, on one level, admirable it also perhaps a bit misguided. In creative work there is always a tension between understanding and incorporating “classic” ideas and techniques versus being modern and edgy. Young and new artists in particular often struggle with this. In a way, restricting yourself to old approaches could be seen as an homage to the classic, established traditions and eschewing the seduction of the radical and new. So the thought process cold be (and in my experience at least sometimes is) that “if Ansel and Penn and Avedon and HCB did BW, then using BW-only today puts me in their lineage.”
It's impressive to me how knowledgeable you blowhards seem to be with zero experience and a commiserate sense of adventure. It's almost like you're afraid you might have to learn something; thus proving you don't know everything.
p.4 #4 · Your experience having a Sony camera converted to Monochrome?
chez wrote:
From a “fun to shoot” perspective, what’s different shooting a monochrome camera versus shooting a colour camera with the viewfinder set to monochrome?
It reminds me of the excitement I had with film: having exposed film ready to process and I can't wait to see the results.
Only with the digital camera, I know my images won't be ruined by a wayward air bubble in the developer tank, or by a piece of dust that embeds itself on the dried film, right on my subject's face.
The thrill is there each time I return with images.
I get a similar tone to film that feels less digital.
And it feels exciting to edit, exciting to print.
p.4 #5 · Your experience having a Sony camera converted to Monochrome?
ATPphoto wrote:
It reminds me of the excitement I had with film: having exposed film ready to process and I can't wait to see the results.
Only with the digital camera, I know my images won't be ruined by a wayward air bubble in the developer tank, or by a piece of dust that embeds itself on the dried film, right on my subject's face.
The thrill is there each time I return with images.
I get a similar tone to film that feels less digital.
And it feels exciting to edit, exciting to print.
But you didn’t answer my question. What makes a digital monochrome camera more exciting to shoot than a digital colour camera setup to display monochrome?
p.4 #6 · Your experience having a Sony camera converted to Monochrome?
chez wrote:
But you didn’t answer my question. What makes a digital monochrome camera more exciting to shoot than a digital colour camera setup to display monochrome?
p.4 #8 · Your experience having a Sony camera converted to Monochrome?
chez wrote:
But you didn’t answer my question. What makes a digital monochrome camera more exciting to shoot than a digital colour camera setup to display monochrome?
for me, the feeling is also important when shooting monochrome, you know that its only bw and no color. somehow its diffrent for me. It's like shooting bw film
p.4 #9 · Your experience having a Sony camera converted to Monochrome?
chez wrote:
Ok…as long as you know why.
Well, who cares what it's set up to display? I'm interested in what kind of images it can produce.
Once I got into the B&W digital workflow, it all made sense, and what I described earlier is what I get from it.
p.4 #10 · Your experience having a Sony camera converted to Monochrome?
BTW I 100% see the point @ATPphoto is trying to make. A mono-converted camera, while technically inferior, forces a constraint on you. As you're about take a photo, you know that your expression options are just the light & shapes, not color. There is no plan B, it's like free solo rock climbing. Technically the same as climbing with safety gear, but far more thrilling.
p.4 #11 · Your experience having a Sony camera converted to Monochrome?
msadat wrote:
(...)somehow its diffrent for me. It's like shooting bw film
When it comes to photography as a process, nothing is as different from shooting film as a digital monochrome camera with an EVF. It already shows a black and white image in the viewfinder, relieving the photographer of precisely what distinguished a good black and white photographer in the analog era: the ability to abstract color, the pre-visualization in black and white in the brain. Shooting film didn't have anything like that; the process was therefore COMPLETELY different. It demanded something of the photographer, unlike a digital mono camera.
p.4 #12 · Your experience having a Sony camera converted to Monochrome?
Try shooting in HEIF mode and in B&W as the files are surprisingly malleable compared to jpeg's with quite a bit more latitude. This is obviously not the same as having RAW files to convert but is one of the options I have set on both my A7r5 and A1ii in the mode dial. When doing this I have card 1 set to HEIF only and card 2 for the RAW's in case I want the colour full sized images. The newer Sony's give you a lot more adjustments for HEIF/JPEG files than the older models. as to Monochrome sensors I have the Q2 monochrom which is a real joy to use and as someone who comes from the days when I did all my own developing and printing I find the files to be just wonderful
p.4 #13 · Your experience having a Sony camera converted to Monochrome?
old-gregg wrote:
BTW I 100% see the point @ATPphoto@ is trying to make. A mono-converted camera, while technically inferior, forces a constraint on you. As you're about take a photo, you know that your expression options are just the light & shapes, not color. There is no plan B, it's like free solo rock climbing. Technically the same as climbing with safety gear, but far more thrilling.
Yes, thanks for translating my garbled musings into something simpler and more coherent.
I would only disagree that the BW camera is inferior.
What some see as a limitation or weakness, I see as a strength.
And technically, I'd argue they're at least on par with each other, while producing different results.
The first time I ever used a monochrome camera, it was a converted Ricoh GR2.
The first shot I took blew me away with its detail, acuity and tonality.
It was a rather miserable shot, but it was technically very impressive.
A real eye-opener for me. I've been in this rabbit hole ever since.
p.4 #14 · Your experience having a Sony camera converted to Monochrome?
freaklikeme wrote:
It's impressive to me how knowledgeable you blowhards seem to be with zero experience and a commiserate sense of adventure. It's almost like you're afraid you might have to learn something; thus proving you don't know everything.
Keeping it classy, I see… ;-
When you have nothing left but name calling and ad hominem, you’ve lost the argument.
I don’t know “everything,” but I do know some things. One of them is black and white photography, both from the film era when I developed and printed and for the last three decades when I made monochrome (and color) photographs using digital tools — cameras, post-processing software, and printers.
old-gregg wrote:
BTW I 100% see the point @ATPphoto@ is trying to make. A mono-converted camera, while technically inferior, forces a constraint on you. As you're about take a photo, you know that your expression options are just the light & shapes, not color. There is no plan B, it's like free solo rock climbing. Technically the same as climbing with safety gear, but far more thrilling.
I don’t buy this “forcing restraint” business, and I especially don’t need a camera that “restrains” me. I want a camera that let’s me make color images when color is appropriate, and one that gives me the greatest power to produce monochromatic images when that is what I’m after. If I want to make a monochromatic photograph, I can do that using a camera that is capable of doing other things, too.
p.4 #15 · Your experience having a Sony camera converted to Monochrome?
gdanmitchell wrote:
I don’t buy this “forcing restraint” business, and I especially don’t need a camera that “restrains” me. I want a camera that let’s me make color images when color is appropriate, and one that gives me the greatest power to produce monochromatic images when that is what I’m after. If I want to make a monochromatic photograph, I can do that using a camera that is capable of doing other things, too.
You must be comfrotable with an idea that we're not complete copies of each other :-) While the idea of such constraint is not appealing to you, I see plenty of evidence that it's appealing to others.
Back to our topic: I am more like you and don't need a restraining camera to enjoy B&W, probably because I shoot a ton of film. But I understand why restraining yourself can be effective. When I travel with a single prime lens, I somehow end up with better memories than lugging around the full 14-200mm range of zooms. I can totally see how some folks see the same benefit with a mono-camera, and I suspect many of them would enjoy going back (or trying for the first time) B&W film, because it brings another useful restraints, namely the shooting volume and light. Digital cameras make it too easy to waste a lot of shots in shit light. It takes a lot of discipline and self-control to wait for good light with a digital camera. But it's the only way to shoot on film, especially if all you have is just 2-3 sheets :-)
p.4 #16 · Your experience having a Sony camera converted to Monochrome?
old-gregg wrote:
You must be comfrotable with an idea that we're not complete copies of each other :-) While the idea of such constraint is not appealing to you, I see plenty of evidence that it's appealing to others.
Back to our topic: I am more like you and don't need a restraining camera to enjoy B&W, probably because I shoot a ton of film. But I understand why restraining yourself can be effective. When I travel with a single prime lens, I somehow end up with better memories than lugging around the full 14-200mm range of zooms. I can totally see how some folks see the same benefit with a mono-camera, and I suspect many of them would enjoy going back (or trying for the first time) B&W film, because it brings another useful restraints, namely the shooting volume and light. Digital cameras make it too easy to waste a lot of shots in shit light. It takes a lot of discipline and self-control to wait for good light with a digital camera. But it's the only way to shoot on film, especially if all you have is just 2-3 sheets :-) ...Show more →
I think the whole “limiting your tools” notion is a misconstruing of something quite different in creative work. That is focus on subjects, projects, etc., versus flitting around from thing to thing — and also focusing on the work and not getting side-tracked by gear obsessions (in photography) and similar distractions in other creative media.
It doesn’t mean that — and there is no evidence that it would be the case — that constraining your tools in unnecessary ways will make you a better artist.
I have a good friend who is a pretty highly regarded photographer who shot LF film for a couple of decades before switching to digital. Some imagine that using the necessarily slow LF film camera gear and sheet film would make you a better photographer since if “forces you to go slow.” His experience was exactly the opposite. He found that he could expand the range of his work, still working as slowly as he needs to when appropriate, but also now able to photograph subjects that were essentially impossible with the slower gear.
p.4 #17 · Your experience having a Sony camera converted to Monochrome?
gdanmitchell wrote:
and there is no evidence that it would be the case — that constraining your tools in unnecessary ways will make you a better artist.
There is. In fact, there's a shit ton of evidence suggesting that having more options leads to people making poorer choices. Both economists and phycologists studied this from several angles. It's not controversial, it's a fact at this point. That's what was taught at two different classes in my uni, and in books like "the paradox of choice" or "predictably irrational". Artists are still humans.
p.4 #18 · Your experience having a Sony camera converted to Monochrome?
old-gregg wrote:
There is. In fact, there's a shit ton of evidence suggesting that having more options leads to people making poorer choices. Both economists and phycologists studied this from several angles. It's not controversial, it's a fact at this point. That's what was taught at two different classes in my uni, and in books like "the paradox of choice" or "predictably irrational". Artists are still humans.
Well, that's exactly what I meant when I said the mono is a camera for weak-willed photographers. Basically, it doesn't matter how I make my decision (A: I'm shooting exclusively with the camera set to black and white today. B: I'm shooting exclusively with a mono today), the photography process is identical (please don't tell me that the occasional application of color filters makes the difference in the creative process). In both cases, I limit myself to black and white. The only difference is that the mono eliminates the temptation for the weak-willed photographer to switch to color at some point. Those with enough character don't need that.
Things would be different if, instead of using a "you press the button, I do the rest" digital camera, you decided to go with a classic analog camera, a handheld light meter (preferably a spot meter), and a handful of film. That would be a completely different creative process and a completely different level of constraint, especially if you then take the negative and positive processes into your own hands. However, I find that very difficult to imagine for people who already find it too much work to convert their RAW files to black and white before editing.
p.4 #19 · Your experience having a Sony camera converted to Monochrome?
I'm continually amazed by how people on internet forums get into discussions that slowly take on an offensive tone and ends up with them belittling the other person or their views. wow
p.4 #20 · Your experience having a Sony camera converted to Monochrome?
Viramati wrote:
I'm continually amazed by how people on internet forums get into discussions that slowly take on an offensive tone and ends up with them belittling the other person or their views. wow
And I'm surprised you've only come to this realization now and not after post #3 on page 4. Wow.
freaklikeme wrote:
It's impressive to me how knowledgeable you blowhards seem to be with zero experience and a commiserate sense of adventure. It's almost like you're afraid you might have to learn something; thus proving you don't know everything.
