p.9 #1 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
That's interesting. I had heard just the opposite with regards to long neck birds, with the Z8 struggling with them. Jan Wegener touches on it here: ?si=Llg53hmitj1ndYC1&t=684
Alistair1 wrote:
I was using it with the RF 600/4. The R5/ii fine but it was being heavily promoted as the second coming but I could not really tell any difference between it and the Z9/800pf I was shooting it alongside. I actually thought it had bigger problems with long neck avian subjects. But I did not know the system very well and that always puts it at a disadvantage I feel. Have you shot the R1 in video? it looks interesting.
p.9 #2 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
You need to reread the thread - I gave concrete answers to my workflow on page 1. I don’t have the problems that a select few complain about, so it’s really hard to troubleshoot something I can’t reproduce. Also, I would much rather make good photos than prove some niche, edge case issue is a problem.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say learn your camera moron. But I will say most of what I’ve seen is that some people have proven themselves incapable of producing good photos consistently. I can’t relate 🤷🏻♂️ With a Z6 I can consistently come away with enough keepers I’m good. With a Z8 I would have to struggle to trick the camera into missing a shot.
AlphaPhotography wrote:
As a Nikon user I can't get a straight answer from a single Nikon user here… I've seen a few half answers in other threads but nothing that points to this as being a non-issue...
p.9 #3 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
AlphaPhotography wrote:
That's interesting. I had heard just the opposite with regards to long neck birds, with the Z8 struggling with them. Jan Wegener touches on it here: ?si=Llg53hmitj1ndYC1&t=684
That's exactly why I suggested to you to get it somehow, and to test it by yourself.
Otherwise, you will never get to the bottom of it, as you really trying to.
p.9 #4 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
Alistair1 wrote:
I should add, if you already have the R5/ii, I really do not think you will find improvement or deficit in the Nikon system (or Sony for that matter unless you need to specialist capabilities of the A9/iii). These systems are all so good that getting to know them well and honing the craft yields far greater return than marginal differences between systems.
I'm not expecting to find drastic differences in AF, but if there is an issue like OOF eyes that comes up frequently that would likely rule Nikon out entirely unless they get it figured out with future firmware or bodies, especially if it's something that happens consistently like focusing on eyelashes.
I finally invested into Nikon more-so for the lenses and video specs. It opens up options like the PF lenses (unfortunately I think the MFD distance would drive me nuts with my brief experience with the 600mm PF), the 400mm and 600mm TC lenses, 3rd party offerings like the Tamron 35-150mm, and unique lenses like the Nikon 135mm f1.8 Plena and 28-400mm for travel. I also think I prefer the results I've seen out of the Nikon 85mm f1.2 over the Canon RF 85mm f1.2 although I don't own the Nikon.
I have an Alaska trip coming up and I'm struggling with which body and lenses to bring, or if I should purchase anything else. I have the ZF, Z8, 28mm f2.8, 40mm f2, 14-30mm f4, adapted Sony 85mm f1.8, and 180-600mm + TC. For Canon I have the R5II, 15-35mm f2.8, 24mm f1.4, 28-70mm f2, 85mm f1.2, 70-200mm f2.8 gen 1, 100-500mm (leaning towards bringing this), and 200-800mm. Nikon also has oversampled 4k 60fps unlike Canon which needs SRAW to achieve decent quality. I have yet to test the 4k120fps side-by-side but that may be a factor for wildlife. Since the trip isn't really wildlife oriented I think I'll need to make sacrifices for the sake of weight. I'm thinking it'll either end up being the R5II + 100-500mm or something like the Z8 + 28-400mm.
p.9 #5 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
jlafferty wrote:
I agree with others: Nikon AF is a complex and trickier beast than Sony, and you’ve provided near zero helpful info on your current workflow and understanding. It takes a good afternoon of working out your workflow. Highly suggest you browse the Approaching the Scene YT. But also, if you just want to jump to settings (on firmware 2… 2.01?) that I’ve had incredible success with: disable face detect AF on the camera; set the camera to 3D tracking (sticky box); then use Recall Shooting Function Hold to enable Face detect. Now you’ll 3d track anything you want sharp by default, and at times you’ll assign the sticky box to the face, or even the eye. But then if you’re comfortably shooting the face of your subject for, say, 1/4 or more of the frame, press a button you’ve assigned RSFH to, and boom, it picks the eye up. I shoot everything Z currently - including commercial fashion and beauty - on 2 lenses: 24-120 f/4, 40 f/2...Show more →
Just re-reading your response now but I don't think this would work for my use. I'm almost always in need of sharp focus on the eyes for fast moving people (kids), sports, running dogs, and wildlife/BIF. I'll give your recommendation a shot but it sounds like it would not achieve focus on the eyes in these situations unless I'm misunderstanding it. Based on your settings do you think the Z8 can't be relied on for general full-time eye-AF without this initial 3D tracking? Or for fast moving subjects in general (getting the eyes in focus)? It sounds like your use is for slower moving people (fashion and beauty) so your settings may not be applicable for sports/action/wildlife.
Do you do any video? What AF settings would you recommend for that to achieve consistent eye-AF?
p.9 #6 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
Alistair1 wrote:
I should add, if you already have the R5/ii, I really do not think you will find improvement or deficit in the Nikon system (or Sony for that matter unless you need to specialist capabilities of the A9/iii). These systems are all so good that getting to know them well and honing the craft yields far greater return than marginal differences between systems.
That is a statement that all sides should be able to agree on.
p.9 #7 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
AlphaPhotography wrote:
Just re-reading your response now but I don't think this would work for my use. I'm almost always in need of sharp focus on the eyes for fast moving people (kids), sports, running dogs, and wildlife/BIF. I'll give your recommendation a shot but it sounds like it would not achieve focus on the eyes in these situations unless I'm misunderstanding it. Based on your settings do you think the Z8 can't be relied on for general full-time eye-AF without this initial 3D tracking? Or for fast moving subjects in general (getting the eyes in focus)? It sounds like your use is for slower moving people (fashion and beauty) so your settings may not be applicable for sports/action/wildlife.
Do you do any video? What AF settings would you recommend for that to achieve consistent eye-AF?...Show more →
You and the OP probably just need to learn how to use your camera better. One of the most prolific posters in this thread didn't even know how to take his Nikon out of auto-iso
p.9 #8 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
This may or may not be off topic but has something changed around here on FM in the past few years? When I began spending more time here and less on DPreview it was due to the FM community being much more helpful, less engaged in attacks or insults, and just generally a much better forum to get real answers on without all the drama. I'm not saying I've been insulted by any means but the level of drama in this thread combined with the non-answers and snide remarks feels very different than the FM I remember from a few years ago.
p.9 #9 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
I think we just got better at spotting trolls
AlphaPhotography wrote:
This may or may not be off topic but has something changed around here on FM in the past few years? When I began spending more time here and less on DPreview it was due to the FM community being much more helpful, less engaged in attacks or insults, and just generally a much better forum to get real answers on without all the drama. I'm not saying I've been insulted by any means but the level of drama in this thread combined with the non-answers and snide remarks feels very different than the FM I remember from a few years ago....Show more →
p.9 #10 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
That’s why free advice from the Internet is worth as much as it costs.
sungphoto wrote:
You and the OP probably just need to learn how to use your camera better. One of the most prolific posters in this thread didn't even know how to take his Nikon out of auto-iso
p.9 #11 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
AlphaPhotography wrote:
This may or may not be off topic but has something changed around here on FM in the past few years? When I began spending more time here and less on DPreview it was due to the FM community being much more helpful, less engaged in attacks or insults, and just generally a much better forum to get real answers on without all the drama. I'm not saying I've been insulted by any means but the level of drama in this thread combined with the non-answers and snide remarks feels very different than the FM I remember from a few years ago....Show more →
I think it's this forum - I find the Sony and Leica forums generally more cordial. There's a lot of Nikon brand fanaticism here.
That said, I do think you might be overthinking your decision a bit much. Unless you're looking to photograph or record some very challenging situations - I think the Z8 can handle it well. I spent some more time with my Z6III this afternoon on a family walk - for a standard head and shoulder portrait with the 24-120mm f4, the eye af performed really well and is very close to some old shots I took with the 135mm f1.8 and sony a7r v. Where I think it falls apart is if there's a lot of action and if you crank up the ISO - I think Sony hangs in there longer on the eye af partly due to the AF motor of the lenses.
For the intended uses of a 85mm f1.2 lens, I don't think you should be worried about the eye af quality. Also for your Alaska trip, I'd go with the 180-600mm and 14-30mm over the 100-500mm or a 28-400mm. I went on a quick camping trip a few years ago and grabbed the sony a1, 200-600mm, 16-35mm, a 28-60mm kit lens, and a tripod. Most of my images were taken on the first two lenses and the weight was manageable. Getting to 600mm is valuable given some of the wildlife out there and I'd take that over losing 100mm on the wide end.
p.9 #12 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
AlphaPhotography wrote:
I'm not expecting to find drastic differences in AF, but if there is an issue like OOF eyes that comes up frequently that would likely rule Nikon out entirely unless they get it figured out with future firmware or bodies, especially if it's something that happens consistently like focusing on eyelashes.
I finally invested into Nikon more-so for the lenses and video specs. It opens up options like the PF lenses (unfortunately I think the MFD distance would drive me nuts with my brief experience with the 600mm PF), the 400mm and 600mm TC lenses, 3rd party offerings like the Tamron 35-150mm, and unique lenses like the Nikon 135mm f1.8 Plena and 28-400mm for travel. I also think I prefer the results I've seen out of the Nikon 85mm f1.2 over the Canon RF 85mm f1.2 although I don't own the Nikon.
I have an Alaska trip coming up and I'm struggling with which body and lenses to bring, or if I should purchase anything else. I have the ZF, Z8, 28mm f2.8, 40mm f2, 14-30mm f4, adapted Sony 85mm f1.8, and 180-600mm + TC. For Canon I have the R5II, 15-35mm f2.8, 24mm f1.4, 28-70mm f2, 85mm f1.2, 70-200mm f2.8 gen 1, 100-500mm (leaning towards bringing this), and 200-800mm. Nikon also has oversampled 4k 60fps unlike Canon which needs SRAW to achieve decent quality. I have yet to test the 4k120fps side-by-side but that may be a factor for wildlife. Since the trip isn't really wildlife oriented I think I'll need to make sacrifices for the sake of weight. I'm thinking it'll either end up being the R5II + 100-500mm or something like the Z8 + 28-400mm.
p.9 #13 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
AlphaPhotography wrote:
This may or may not be off topic but has something changed around here on FM in the past few years? When I began spending more time here and less on DPreview it was due to the FM community being much more helpful, less engaged in attacks or insults, and just generally a much better forum to get real answers on without all the drama. I'm not saying I've been insulted by any means but the level of drama in this thread combined with the non-answers and snide remarks feels very different than the FM I remember from a few years ago....Show more →
Years ago, it was basically Canon and Nikon shooters and usually it was fun banter between the two main brands, you just didn't see that many or any Canon shooters here trying to espouse what they may perceive as Canon superiority or Nikon shooters in the Canon forum with said same. The two brands' users respected each other's camera systems and for using their brand of choice. We now have Sony into the mix with some of their users desire always needing to prove Sony's worth, and let's say some dubious motives behind their being continually on the Nikon forum. Like you, I watch these threads with dismay and try to keep out of them because it always ends up with a select group of Sony, let's say interlopers, coming into denigrate Nikon whenever they can which inevitably devolves into what we have here and in other threads of this type. These same few people push their perceived Sony superiority agenda which is to me is akin to a used car salesman - some may call it something else like a paid shill or troll. It seems to me, this fervent desire by a few Sony users that are always needing to prove that their Sony cameras and/or lenses are better for some reason. I just see it is an inferiority complex that some Sony users have for some reason always needing to prove a perceived superiority whether it is correct or not. I have never been to any other camera brand forum as it is irrelevant to me what they shoot or how good they perceive their cameras and lenses to be. I have no such an inferiority complex as I get the results I want from my Nikon gear and that is all I care about, and it would seem most here are in the same boat. I think many of us get fed up with these constant insurgences by a select few and thus short fuses develop. I also put it down to people seeing through some of these interlopers with their questionable motives.
p.9 #14 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
Thanks for the insight. I guess my worry is exactly what you described "Where I think it falls apart is if there's a lot of action and if you crank up the ISO - I think Sony hangs in there longer on the eye af partly due to the AF motor of the lenses." This is actually the problem I'm experiencing now with the Canon R5II, and more-so with my previous R5. I wasn't sure if it was the camera or the lenses. I've attributed it more to the lenses because I found that it was often when I was using their noisier, fast aperture RF glass or their cheaper STM lenses. I experienced many misses with the RF 35mm f1.8 STM to the point that I stopped using it pretty early on and eventually sold it along with the 16mm f2.8 STM. I also have always had issues with the RF 28-70mm f2 keeping up and the 85mm f1.2. Both of those have clunkier noisier motors than my RF 70-200mm f2.8 and RF 100-500mm. The fast silent AF motors are something I miss a lot from when I shot Sony. It didn't matter what price level or how fast the glass was. Every lens was fast and silent. With the R5 + 28-70mm f2 it was so bad in video AF that I couldn't even reliably record my nephews walking around collecting crabs. It's one reason I'm considering selling that lens and picking up either the RF 24-105mm f2.8 for my R5II or the Tamron 35-150mm f2-2.8 for my Z8. Or even looking at the Sony 28-70mm f2 adapted to Nikon or getting a Sony body. I love the rendering of the 28-70mm f2 and it's probably the most useful lens I've ever owned, but the AF leaves a lot to be desired and it's extremely heavy.
The Z8 + 180-600mm and 14-30mm f4 would be a good combo but I worry about the weight of the 180-600mm. It's even heavier than the 200-800mm while being 200mm less reach and about the same size in a bag. Paired with the R5II the 200-800mm makes for an even more significantly lighter combo since the Z8 is hefty. I like the oversampled 4k60fps SRAW on the R5II but the ability to shoot oversampled 4k60 log on the Nikon is really nice too. It'll be a tough choice. This autofocus debacle will also weigh into my choice since I'll be shooting moving people and wildlife.
I've also considered adding something like the Nikon 400mm f4.5. It's close to the size and weight of the RF 100-500mm while being a lot faster aperture and easier compatibility with teleconverters compared to the clunky extended 100-500mm setup.
tzhang4284 wrote:
I think it's this forum - I find the Sony and Leica forums generally more cordial. There's a lot of Nikon brand fanaticism here.
That said, I do think you might be overthinking your decision a bit much. Unless you're looking to photograph or record some very challenging situations - I think the Z8 can handle it well. I spent some more time with my Z6III this afternoon on a family walk - for a standard head and shoulder portrait with the 24-120mm f4, the eye af performed really well and is very close to some old shots I took with the 135mm f1.8 and sony a7r v. Where I think it falls apart is if there's a lot of action and if you crank up the ISO - I think Sony hangs in there longer on the eye af partly due to the AF motor of the lenses.
For the intended uses of a 85mm f1.2 lens, I don't think you should be worried about the eye af quality. Also for your Alaska trip, I'd go with the 180-600mm and 14-30mm over the 100-500mm or a 28-400mm. I went on a quick camping trip a few years ago and grabbed the sony a1, 200-600mm, 16-35mm, a 28-60mm kit lens, and a tripod. Most of my images were taken on the first two lenses and the weight was manageable. Getting to 600mm is valuable given some of the wildlife out there and I'd take that over losing 100mm on the wide end. ...Show more →
p.9 #15 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
It's been one of my favorites over the years and always impresses me. My only real complaint is I find it not quite enough reach for birding but all of it's other advantages make it worth it in most situations. It even fits attached to my R5II in some of my messenger style bags like the Wotancraft Pilot 10l. It makes it so much easier to travel with and handhold compared to lenses like my old Sony 200-600mm, my Nikon 180-600mm, and the RF 200-800mm. 100mm also comes in handy far more often than I'd have thought and the MFD is so handy. I just despise the clunky teleconverter compatibility.
Alistair1 wrote:
I don't think you can go wrong with the 100-500, that's a sweet lens for that type of trip.
p.9 #16 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
AlphaPhotography wrote:
DOF is thin even at half body distance with lenses like the 85mm f1.2. With these higher megapixel sensors I often like to turn one portrait into two or three framings, from half body to head and shoulders to tight headshot. If this flexibility is lost because a camera is actively choosing to focus on the eyelash or nose for whatever reason and the eyes are not in sharp focus, that's a bummer. But I can't determine if that's what is happening with these users complaining about "eyelash AF". Is it something they're doing wrong or is it something strange with Nikon's focus algorithm?
If I grab a Z8 + 85mm f1.2, a Canon R5II + RF 85mm f1.2, and a Sony A1II + 85mm f1.4 GMII, will the Z8 struggle to nail sharp focus on the the eye when using wide AF-C human eye-AF? I'm guessing not since there isn't THAT much talk about it, but I do wonder why it is a reoccurring discussion. Is it because some additional focus settings need to be adjusted on the Z8?
I'm not going to compare these lenses because I don't own them. I'll just say two things though:
1. unless someone is using a tripod with the exact same conditions, it's hard to compare. Comparing 1.4 vs 1.2 is significant too (see your examples above).
2. you'll notice most of the true professional portrait work will master the depth of field to include the full face. Many don't use the wide open aperture when close to the subject for this reason. It looks odd having a nose, the second eye, or even an ear out of focus to me. I'm guilty of it also while enjoying the pleasure of a 1.2 or 1.4 lens myself, but it really doesn't do the images justice vs having more of the subject's face in focus. So I go back to my point above.....it doesn't matter. Take a step or two back and you'll appreciate the depth of field on the subject more while still enjoying the wide open aperture's effect on the background. In doing so, the cAF of Sony vs Canon vs Nikon will be moot. I still use my Z6ii with great eye-AF success for stationary subjects at f1.2 or 1.4, so I'm not sure what people do with a Z8, Z9, Z6iii or Zf to muck it up. I don't consider myself a pro.
p.9 #17 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
I have to throw this in for a laugh......Trump's headshot was apparently taken with a Z9 and a 85mm 1.2S. Looks like both eyes, eyelashes, ears and each hair follicle are in focus. Because if the photographer used f1.2 up close and got eyelashes in focus only, he would have said "you're fired".
There's nothing wrong with geeking out with technology. It's interesting to think about for sure. But one can get carried away with it and worry about the slimmest of details that are irrelevant when comparing with other factors that go into a great shot. Form factor, raw file, enjoyment factor and lens selections should be bigger considerations at this point vs AF differences. It's well documented that no system is perfect and some systems are marginally better than others under different circumstances.....marginal though!
Nikon AF is not complicated in most cases. I've taken 400mm f2.8 (f-mount) shots with ironman athletes cycling towards me at 35km/h pace with a Z8 & ftz adapter on it and have been stunned at how well it autofocused with tight images. I don't shoot tiny unpredictable birds, but most portrait work should be a cake-walk at the very least. I've used the "slower AF" Sigma 135mm on the ftz & Z8 and it was fantastic in a dark gym with basketball. I will say my Z7 and Z6ii are more limited in darker rooms and with movement, but I think that's well documented.
p.9 #18 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
In my view this sad thread seems to be started by someone trolling. Why would the OP otherwise not give more details or respond to Nikon-users who tried to help with the problem.
And I dont realy get why some users of other brands are so happy to participate in Nikon-related diskussions. Especially since they dont care much for Nikon-users replys but continue on their predetermined tracks. The only tech-parts of this forum that I follow are Nikon, Leica and alternative and film. I can acknowledge
that Im an old Nikon fan-boy and I do have some negative opinions on the two biggest consumer brands, but for that reason I avoid their sub-forums.
p.9 #19 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
Just one of these mysteries in life Jesper why somebody find satisfaction in negativity. Do they feel superior, childhood traumas, drinking too much vinegar, … who shall tell. Fact is, there is just a very poor to no moderation here, a bit like on X and other social media sites.
p.9 #20 · After testing Z8 and having focus issues I may go to the Sony A7RV
If everyone wants proof (I find this thing so strange) that I'm not trolling, if you like I will now be on the Sony forum where I will be asking questions about my new Sony A7RV which is also drum roll.. not perfect. No camera is perfect, I am not trolling this forum as I will not be trolling the Sony forum. Whats the point in a forum if you can't ask questions about things that aren't working as you'd expect?
