p.5 #1 · Official: Leica SL3-S Mirrorless camera announced!
tzhang4284 wrote:
Glad you like it but everything you laid out is pretty much table stakes in a modern DSLR-style mirrorless camera from Canon, Sony, Nikon and Panasonic. The SL2-S is a low bar to compare against vs literally every other camera at this price point and below. I've also used all the recent Leica cameras outside of the SL line and tried the SL a while back too actually - pretty sure I'm not missing anything.
To me, Leica is at its best when it offers unique value and differentiation for the customer - I don't see it here. Like you said though, my opinion, so if you can afford it and like it, enjoy....Show more →
If you didn’t miss anything then it’s simply not for you. The SL3-S isn’t for me either.
I do have the SL3, A7R5, A7CR and Canon R5 though. The Japanese cameras are wildly more advanced than the SL3 and yet the SL3 is by FAR my most used small format camera. Specifically because.
1. While I appreciate the advanced functionality of the other camera I don’t need it to get the images I take.
2. I value UI and build quality over functionality (IQ being nearly equal).
3. The glass. You mention the SL APO’s. You forget the 90-280 is also APO. The near APO 24-90. And that the Sigmas on L mount like the 500, 70-200 and 60-60 can take teleconverters. Also the SL’s are better for M lenses than anything except the Zf which doesn’t read the 6 bit codes.
4. It’s not what the camera has. It’s what it doesn’t have. Wildly complex menus. Digging in pages to set button functions. 5 pages of AF options to set up. Modern cameras are fab because they do so much and horrible because they’re so complex. The SL3 cameras are the anti-mirrorless. Dropping stuff for the user experience.
5. The build and weather sealing. I’ve seen both the A7R5 and R5 glitch in extreme weather. Never my SL’s.
Japanese companies start with a set of features and then work out how to stuff them all in. Leica starts with a user experiences and then adds stuff until it changes that experience. If you use them side by side you can feel it straight away. It depends which you value more.
p.5 #2 · Official: Leica SL3-S Mirrorless camera announced!
'It seems as if Leica tried to bring an “intelligent menu” to the market that adjusts itself when changing one of the parameters for video recording. But the thing is, practically the opposite is achieved, and throughout my tests, I felt as if the usability was being negatively affected by it. There were times I was not even sure about what codec or resolution I was filming at!
..changing one parameter can prompt the camera to warn you that it will automatically adjust other settings to avoid exceeding its capabilities, resulting in a sort of “cat-and-mouse game.” Speaking of which, there is a way to “lock recording parameters,” and a lock icon will appear. However, when you exit the menu and return to it, the lock icons vanish, leaving you guessing which settings you had previously locked.
there isn’t a single function it offers that other mirrorless cameras from competing brands, both near and far, can’t deliver at a much lower cost.' Also mentioned: IBIS effectiveness on the move, rolling shutter control, implementation of any frame rate above 30p (crop mode only), no specific Kelvin setting.
p.5 #3 · Official: Leica SL3-S Mirrorless camera announced!
flash wrote:
Japanese companies start with a set of features and then work out how to stuff them all in. Leica starts with a user experiences and then adds stuff until it changes that experience. If you use them side by side you can feel it straight away. It depends which you value more.
This sums up my experience. When I transitioned to mirrorless I started with a used Leica SL (Typ 601) to help me decide if I wanted to stay with Nikon or move to the SL series. My Nikons had evolved to the point they felt like a computer on which one mounted a lens. I'm a computer scientist and configuring it for my shooting brought back memories of my programming days.
On the other hand the SL was still definitely a camera and created the impression that it was designed by folks who actually used it. While my Nikon Z8 is a superb tool, I get no more enjoyment from it as I would with any other tool. My SL (and now SL2 and SL2-S) feel so right in my hand that I immediately want to go photograph with them. When I did paid work I needed equipment with close to the state-of-the-art performance since I could not anticipate what I might be called upon to shoot. Now I only do personal photography for the pure enjoyment of it. My SL cameras are perfect in that role.
p.5 #4 · Official: Leica SL3-S Mirrorless camera announced!
SL3S in hand and it's like having two SL3. At least the black paint LEICA logo helps me pick them apart. So glad I parted with my SL2S Reporter.
As for printing "only" 24MP files with the advent of Topaz Gigapixel this becomes close to a moot point. It works even with a small 2.5x one is close to an SL3 or M11 image.
After the M9M was released I saw huge prints at the Leica opening evening event at Fotokina when they introduced the M240. No one thought they looked horrible and if I remember correctly they were about 6 feet high. Can't remember name of photographer.
p.5 #5 · Official: Leica SL3-S Mirrorless camera announced!
Now it really looks like a computer with that power button. The SL2-S is easier to hold while accessing the Fn, menu, playback buttons, but I guess having an articulating screen negates that.
p.5 #7 · Official: Leica SL3-S Mirrorless camera announced!
First the size and weights are the same versus my SL2-S which was noticeably bigger and heaver to the feel.
Next the UI is so easy to use on both, now that they are the same. This is the best UI Leica has offered to date.
Third, the handheld (or tripod which I seldom need) multi-shot mode when used exceeds the SL3 file size when wanted. I only shoot RAW. I miss this feature on the SL3.
Fourth if you set files to record to the CFe card it is faster than imagined and now that the MP difference is evident the SL3S is much faster when shooting AFC.
p.5 #8 · Official: Leica SL3-S Mirrorless camera announced!
stgrove wrote:
First the size and weights are the same versus my SL2-S which was noticeably bigger and heaver to the feel.
Next the UI is so easy to use on both, now that they are the same. This is the best UI Leica has offered to date.
Third, the handheld (or tripod which I seldom need) multi-shot mode when used exceeds the SL3 file size when wanted. I only shoot RAW. I miss this feature on the SL3.
Fourth if you set files to record to the CFe card it is faster than imagined and now that the MP difference is evident the SL3S is much faster when shooting AFC.
Ah ... gotcha, it handles similar to the SL3, so it feels like a matched pair of SL3's ... one high res for detail, one low res for speedy performance.
Thus, it actually is a pair of SL3 bodies.
SL3
SL3-S
I'd be curious to hear your thoughts / comps (if you got some) on the SLS-3 multi-shot at 48MP / 96MP (handheld vs. tripod) vs. the SL3.
p.5 #9 · Official: Leica SL3-S Mirrorless camera announced!
The Mathphotographer actually has a good YouTube video on trying this out for the first time and what changes he made to make the process easier with an APO 50. Of course with a wider lens it is much easier to work multi-shot.
p.5 #10 · Official: Leica SL3-S Mirrorless camera announced!
Just noticed the SL3-S on P2P.
Looks like the increased speed comes with a slight hit on IQ vs. the SL2-S. My guess is the # of bands in the readout, in order to achieve the faster, is the quid pro quo.
Noticed too, the inclusion of NR for the SL3-S vs. the SL2-S.
p.5 #11 · Official: Leica SL3-S Mirrorless camera announced!
RustyBug wrote:
Just noticed the SL3-S on P2P.
Looks like the increased speed comes with a slight hit on IQ vs. the SL2-S. My guess is the # of bands in the readout, in order to achieve the faster, is the quid pro quo.
Noticed too, the inclusion of NR for the SL3-S vs. the SL2-S.
Wow, about 4/5 stop difference in DR at native base ISO.
I was pretty sure it would have baked in NR at high ISO just like the SL3 does.
p.5 #12 · Official: Leica SL3-S Mirrorless camera announced!
RustyBug wrote:
Just noticed the SL3-S on P2P.
Looks like the increased speed comes with a slight hit on IQ vs. the SL2-S. My guess is the # of bands in the readout, in order to achieve the faster, is the quid pro quo.
Noticed too, the inclusion of NR for the SL3-S vs. the SL2-S.
Looks like about 1/10th of bugger all difference to me. Likely within the error rounding of a site like P2P.
But now we get to have threads about how the IQ of the new camera has gone backwards. Excellent!!
p.5 #13 · Official: Leica SL3-S Mirrorless camera announced!
RustyBug wrote:
Just noticed the SL3-S on P2P.
Looks like the increased speed comes with a slight hit on IQ vs. the SL2-S. My guess is the # of bands in the readout, in order to achieve the faster, is the quid pro quo.
Noticed too, the inclusion of NR for the SL3-S vs. the SL2-S.
Thanks for posting. Always interesting to see how new camera/sensors appear and compare in P2P IMO. My reaction to seeing these results/comparison:
I think I read, Leica markets the SL3-S with a new sensor. I'm thinking it's the same base sensor as the SL2-S, but Leica went back to Sony sensor option list and ticked the option to enable PDAF on the same SL2-S sensor + some necessary tweaks applied by Leica aka in-camera NR to keep the well-deserved SL2-S Noise King reputation with PDAF technology enabled. Some may and do call this a "new" sensor and of course more than enough "newness" for marketing to describe it that way.
p.5 #15 · Official: Leica SL3-S Mirrorless camera announced!
highdesertmesa wrote:
If you use the SL3-S at higher ISO, there will be zero difference, and that's pretty much what's been reported.
Regarding noise at low ISO/DR, we knew that adding PDAF would have a small impact.
Which I think that in terms of the -S ... most folks would consider a reasonable tradeoff to get the PDAF.
Imo, the -S is meant to be a very, versatile tool (rather than a max IQ tool) and the improvements in PDAF garner a bump in its usefulness, despite a minor trade in the DR. Which, btw ... DR isn't the end-all, do-all, tell-all attribute of IQ.
That said, the "hit" to ISO 100 in the SL3-S is still 0.5 stops more DR than my Q2 at the same ISO 100.
Also, it looks like tossing more light at it (i.e. ISO 64) makes up the difference to offset the PDAF when you can throw more light at it.
Imo, it's simply a matter of getting what you asked for ... put on the PDAF, and this is the (trivial, minor, insignificant, ymmv, etc.) DR cost of doing so, outcome.
Not meant to be a "sky is falling" thing, just an interesting (imo) observation.
p.5 #16 · Official: Leica SL3-S Mirrorless camera announced!
LBJ2 wrote:
Thanks for posting. Always interesting to see how new camera/sensors appear and compare in P2P IMO. My reaction to seeing these results/comparison:
I think I read, Leica markets the SL3-S with a new sensor. I'm thinking it's the same base sensor as the SL2-S, but Leica went back to Sony sensor option list and ticked the option to enable PDAF on the same SL2-S sensor + some necessary tweaks applied by Leica aka in-camera NR to keep the well-deserved SL2-S Noise King reputation with PDAF technology enabled. Some may and do call this a "new" sensor and of course more than enough "newness" for marketing to describe it that way....Show more →
Or for most photography consumers, planned obsolescence. Digital photography has peaked until we’re all convinced they should have satellite phones. Much like vinyl records, many photographers will think film photography is cool again. How can it not be cool? Digital photography has made so many rely on the digital camera instead of the basics and skill. These constant upgrades are and prices are absurd, imo.
p.5 #17 · Official: Leica SL3-S Mirrorless camera announced!
Film is cool to a point-maInly the capture, but after that it is all too often tedious. I we scan him then why not just shoot digital. I used to love seeing the print develop in the tray, but those days are 50+ years behind me.
p.5 #18 · Official: Leica SL3-S Mirrorless camera announced!
johnld wrote:
Or for most photography consumers, planned obsolescence. Digital photography has peaked until we’re all convinced they should have satellite phones. Much like vinyl records, many photographers will think film photography is cool again. How can it not be cool? Digital photography has made so many rely on the digital camera instead of the basics and skill. These constant upgrades are and prices are absurd, imo.
In Your Head
vs.
Fingers and Toes
Pencil and Paper
Abacus
Slide Rule
Calculator
Computer
Phone App's
Slide Rule's are the coolest of the bunch (imo), but most folks aren't racing back to use one. As the progression of convenience (and popularity of such) increases, the reliance on base skills diminishes. Our beloved craft is not that much different in regard to the progression (relative to human nature) of popularity for differentiated tools of choice vs. retention of fundamentals (i.e. use it or lose it).
To a certain degree, the thing that makes something "cool" is the degree that is an exception from the "norm" ... whether that is a forward, avant-garde or a retro perspective, of doing what differentiates from routine, average, mundane, normal, etc. Film is "cool" because everyone is digital ... as a differentiated process. It wasn't that long ago, that digital was "cool" because most folks were still in film.
WRT "cool", consideration for the outcome is secondary to the differentiation. It's the (social) differentiation that makes something "cool".
p.5 #19 · Official: Leica SL3-S Mirrorless camera announced!
That’s kind of the point. Digital is making the learning of basic skills kind of secondary. Digital convenience is obvious, but having the basic photography fundamentals goes a long way to appreciating the tech. I could never justify the price of an M11D monochrom, but I guess Leica’s catering to those who want more of an analog vibe by taking the screen out and putting in an ISO dial and removing the Leica logo, but charging more for the convenience. I get it, digital tech is pretty incredible, but for photographers, I think all should get out there with a film camera learn Ansel Adams zones for B/W or shoot color and buy a Leica M2 or M6. This vastly increases their photography knowledge and might save a few bucks too. It’s not what’s cool per say, but that seems to drive the markets and if that's turning a profit why not keep up with demand even if it means tons of waste, batteries, plastic filling landfills, etc. Although, these upgrade cycles allow others to get better deals with planned obsolescence when the newest, really must have features of the M12 is released. How did we take photographs before this camera?
We shoot weddings with both digital convenience, but have film b/u cameras too. Our P67 with Portra 400 can blow away the resolution and character of most of my digital gear, but having the basic fundamentals helps us achieve great results. Yes, this is a personal nitpick, so no offense to others.
