One of my kiddo's is soon to graduate college. She is very artistic and loves to shoot film. Around a roll a week. She has been shooting an old Nikon body and my lenses, but really wants a Leica. I know nothing about them. Nothing.
She is using AF, but can live without it. She shoots mostly between 24mm & 50mm. She shoots both manual and auto, but would likely like to have the "A" option & a good meter.
So if you were to buy a "beginner" Leica and a lens - what would be your go-to option?
M7 has aperture mode. It is the only model with that feature.
MP/M6 has meter but you manually set exposure.
Everything else doesn't have a meter, just full manual and you need a light meter.
There's the M5 which has a meter but I'd avoid as they're old and the meter may not work.
There are also the Konica Hexar RF, the Zeiss Ikon ZM and the voigtlander R2/3/4A models that offer aperture priority.
What is the budget?
Also note that the rangefinder experience is nothing like the SLRs. Fast lenses, long lenses and very wide lenses make less sense, or at least present problems that you wouldn't consider an issue with an SLR.
As a one line solution I would recommend starting with as new a body the budget will fit and one of the Voigtlander 35mm lenses. Get ready for sticker shock, the cheapest usable used M lens will be more than what you paid for the entire Nikon outfit. A sub 2k Leica body is always suspect, some of those are now 50 years old. They may have shutter issues with bounce/banding at the higher speeds.
What do you mean by “beginner”? If you mean ease-of-use, then it’s the M7 because it has aperture priority auto exposure.
Don’t care about auto exposure? Then there’s the M6 and MP with their built-in light meters.
Don’t care about a built-in light meter? Then there’s the M-A, M4-P, M4, and M4-2 with their quick load mechanisms.
They’re all manual focus using a rangefinder mechanism, so the learning curve may be high YMMV.
There are other non-Leica brands that use the same lens mount that come with “better” specs at lower price points, at the sacrifice of build quality and possibly serviceability.
cbbr wrote:
... like to have the "A" option & a good meter.
Leica M7 is the only option which has both of it as mentioned above. More options available without the "A" mode - M5, M6, MP. Alternatively it might be worthwhile to look at Voigtlander Bessa cameras which also use M-mount lenses. The R4M has 21 and 25 mm frame lines which is unique in the rangefinder world and very useful for wide angle film photographers. It lacks frame lines above 50 mm though.
cbbr wrote:
One of my kiddo's is soon to graduate college. She is very artistic and loves to shoot film. Around a roll a week. She has been shooting an old Nikon body and my lenses, but really wants a Leica. I know nothing about them. Nothing.
She is using AF, but can live without it. She shoots mostly between 24mm & 50mm. She shoots both manual and auto, but would likely like to have the "A" option & a good meter.
So if you were to buy a "beginner" Leica and a lens - what would be your go-to option?
Anything wider than a 28 will need an external finder (not too expensive if you go with Voigtlander), but the 50 is good to go with any M body. If you think she'll have other focal lengths in mind, then I would buy based around frame lines and what could host those other focal lengths.
Someone can double-check me, but the M3 has 50/90/135 frame lines, the M2 has 35/50/90, the M4/M4-2/M5 have 35/50/90/135 lines, and then the M4-P, M6, M7, M-A, and MP have 28/35/50/75/90/135 lines.
Then for meters, M5's do have them but they're getting long in the tooth. The M6, M7, and MP would be your better options if a meter is required, and as mentioned, the M7 even has auto exposure. But I would add that a phone app or a shoe meter can do a lot for someone working without a meter for the first time. I think those are good enough solutions that all of these options should be on the table.
To keep it simple, if she only wants a 21/25 and a 50, then an M3 with a good CLA could be a great solution. Same goes for M2 if she might also want a 35 (and the M2 can fudge a 28 also). Those shouldn't really be more than a couple grand or so with a good CLA. If she has to have a meter, then I say lean into auto exposure as well and just go with the M7. That'd be something like 3-4, I think?
And just to be clear, a rangefinder is very different from an SLR. There's a chance she simply may not like it, so keeping resale value in mind would be smart.
As for lenses, that would come down to the stuff that she shoots since there's such a difference in how the various M lenses look and behave.
Thank you for the answers so far. I suppose that I didn't answer a couple of questions.
The budget... is the budget. It's going to hurt, but she has (soon) earned an Ivy level degree and will be accepted to that level of Masters program. I'm math, she is Art. Capital "A". She is the person who makes sure that there is another generation of film.
Pure manual may be beyond her current comfort zone. She has far more vision than I ever have, but fewer innate "math/metering" abilities. I don't want the math to get in the way of the vision.
So maybe an M7? And the "perfect" lens to shoot mostly people?
The price of an M6 TTL is still reasonable. The shutter speed dial turns in the same direction as the meter arrows and can easily be changed with the camera at eye level. Like most of the M camera that lack the condenser (M4-2, M4-P, M6 & M6 TTL) there is a tendency for the viewfinder to flare to white in certain lighting situations.
Also, I wold recommend starting with a 35. It's a good general purpose focal length and there are plenty of options for lenses.
madNbad wrote:
Like most of the M camera that lack the condenser (M4-2, M4-P, M6 & M6 TTL) there is a tendency for the viewfinder to flare to white in certain lighting situations.
When in my cameras the patch flare occurs, the center rectangle in the viewfinder freezes and flares in red but never so far in white. Shaking the camera a bit front to back resolves the freeze, but it might cost you the critical moment to capture.
Get an M7 for a reasonable price, and Voigtlander lens in either 35mm or 50mm or both, and some film for her and she'll be off to a good start.
Rangefinder camera with manual focus is rewarding to many, but coming from an SLR and losing autofocus will be challenge enough to learn the system, without having to learn about manual exposure etc. And when she wants to, you can still do that on an M7 (but you don't HAVE to).
retrofocus wrote:
When in my cameras the patch flare occurs, the center rectangle in the viewfinder freezes and flares in red but never so far in white. Shaking the camera a bit front to back resolves the freeze, but it might cost you the critical moment to capture.
My first M6 TTL never flared. The Millennium would go completely white at some angles. My current M4-2 hasn’t exhibited any flare at all.
cbbr wrote:
Thank you for the answers so far. I suppose that I didn't answer a couple of questions.
The budget... is the budget. It's going to hurt, but she has (soon) earned an Ivy level degree and will be accepted to that level of Masters program. I'm math, she is Art. Capital "A". She is the person who makes sure that there is another generation of film.
Pure manual may be beyond her current comfort zone. She has far more vision than I ever have, but fewer innate "math/metering" abilities. I don't want the math to get in the way of the vision.
So maybe an M7? And the "perfect" lens to shoot mostly people?...Show more →
There is no perfect lens. Given you mentioned that she shoots either on the 24mm or 50mm end I'd say start with a 50.
Now...which fifty? How much money do you have? How fast? While you can get a Voigtlander 50/1 for not that much money (in the grand scheme of Leica) I would advise sticking to the f/1.4-f/2 range. While the general wisdom in SLR land is to go as fast as you can, personally I think f/2 is more than sufficient. A faster lens will be a larger lens, a larger lens will intrude in the viewfinder more. It will also be heavy which makes the whole shooting/handling experience worse, worse than a heavy lens on an SLR.
Anyway...take your pick:
Voigtlander 50/1.2 (still compact enough).
Voigtlander 50/1.5
Voigtlander 50/2 APO
Voigtlander 50/2.2
Zeiss 50/1.5 Sonnar
Zeiss 50/2 Planar
Leica 50/2 Summicron (the plain one, not the APO)
Leica 50/1.4 Summilux
Then there's all the used stuff from Leica like 3 different version of the older 50mm Summilux, the 50/2.4 Summarit, the very old 50/2 rigid, etc etc etc. You probably have a good 20-30 options depending on what look you want. I won't even go to Leica screw-mount lenses that you can use with an adapter...
They all have a slightly different rendering. Have a look here for some very good reviews of the above: https://gear.vogelius.se/
Another option is the Voigtlander 40/1.4, it is an excellent lens, gives you a more natural view than a 50. The only "drawback" is that the camera does not have 40mm framelines so you will get a bit more than the viewfinder shows you. But you get used to that very quickly. It is a great lens, tiny and one of the cheapets you can get.
Finally, another route is to go 35mm for a more environmental portrait. The Voigtlander 35mm f/1.4 II is a great portrait lens. Others will chime in with their preferenes. It really depends on your budget.
Beware...Leica cameras will focus down to 0.7m. This can come up as quite a limitation if your kid is used to shooting a 50mm at the typical 0.5m min focus distance of SLRs. The Zeiss 50/1.5 will focus to 0.9m,. Some of the older lenses will focus to 1m. Just saying, there's nothing you can do about it, you just learn to shoot a bit differently (or you get a 75/90mm lens for tighter framing).
To give you my my personal choices, I would look at one of those, in order of most to least expensive
- Leica 50/1.4 Summilux ASPH
- Leica 50mm f/2 Summicron
- Zeiss ZM 50mm f/1.5
- Voigtlander 40mm f/1.4
She should probably start with a Summicron and then let her find out what she likes. Either she will hate the rangefinder experience or she will go down the rabbit hole of trying a few dozen lenses. This is the way.
The M7 is indeed a good choice if you carry an extra set of batteries. It was my workhorse after the M6 and I still own and use one.
A M6 or M6-TTL can also be a good choice if it is in good condition, especially the M6.
When it comes to lenses, Voigtlander has plenty of excellent 28, 35 and 50mm and they are reasonably priced.
madNbad wrote:
My first M6 TTL never flared. The Millennium would go completely white at some angles. My current M4-2 hasn’t exhibited any flare at all.
My M6 non-TTL is the most prone one for patch flaring. It can occur if the sun hits the patch in a specific angle from one of the upper sides. Then the focus rectangle in the middle freezes with reddish tint without manual focus option anymore. My M4-2 so far didn't exhibit this either interestingly enough. My M7 isn't one of the last batches which already use the newer MP rangefinder patch, so it flares also but not as often as in my M6 non-TTL. But if it does, it exhibits the same behavior. I remember now that I have seen it one time in more a clear (or name it whiteish) freeze. It might depend on the sun angle for it to happen and how it looks like when it is frozen.
I'd go for an M6 or M6-TTL, or M7. But most would probably say the classic Leica experience is with a manual non-auto exposure camera, so M6/6-TTL. If you really don't care and want to use an external meter (I wouldnt advise it) then the cheapest is probably an M4-2.
Not sure what you mean by she “really wants a Leica”. Everyone immediately jumped to the conclusion that she wanted a rangefinder camera made by Leica with aperture priority metering. If correct, the M7 is your choice, but the Zeiss Ikon ZM has a large bright viewfinder and would be worth considering if you mean she really wants a rangefinder vs a Leica. I purchased two Ikons vs purchasing M7s. Also, larger format rangefinders such as the Mamiya 7 and 7ii yield much higher resolutions and the large 6x7 negatives can be scanned on the top model Epson flat bed scanners. This is an easy and economical solution when shooting film, but the cameras are in demand and have held their prices throughout the years. They are much larger than the 35mm rangefinders, but much smaller than other 6x7 cameras. Like all film rangefinders, they are somewhat limited in close focus abilities compared to reflex cameras. Lastly, Leica did make reflex film cameras, but they were fairly large and heavy.
After I finished my Ph.D. (English) and got my first job, I undertook a similar journey. I had been a lifelong Nikon shooter, first N70 and then FM3a, and I always shot those in Aperture Priority mode. I was attracted to Leica primarily for the cameras' aesthetics and all-mechanical functions. My first Leica was the one I could afford, an M2 from 1960, which does not have a built-in meter.
It was not difficult for me to learn to use an external meter, and I disagree that your daughter would need "math/metering" abilities to learn to use one. Arguably, using an external meter helps a photographer understand light better, thus enhancing artistic possibilities. In fact, sometimes I still use an external meter with my metered Leicas.
My main piece of advice is to ask your daughter what she wants, since she has already started looking. If she needs an M7 for the reasons you've explained, that's what you should get, but I would not discount an earlier model (M6 with meter or M4 without). An M4 in great working condition can still be found for under $2,000.
Has she used a rangefinder before? You could always sell a Leica for what it cost, but a rangefinder may not be the right type of camera for her style. I always recommend starting with a cheaper camera so there’s less to worry about while testing the waters.
All of the aperture-priority options mentioned are great cameras: Leica M7, Voigtländer Bessas, Zeiss Ikon ZM, Konica Hexar RF, Minolta CLE. If autofocus is viable, there’s the Contax G series and Konica Hexar AF.
Rangefinders are what people generally think of, when they think “Leica,” but shooting with one is totally different from shooting with an SLR. It is not for everyone. I love the lenses but could not get my head around using the cameras.
Leica also made lovely SLR cameras. The R line. An R6 would get you metering and is a lovely camera, with a stellar viewfinder. The Summicron f/2 set of lenses would be semi-reasonable in price, though they are harder to find these days, as Hollywood cinematographers have been grabbing them up.
