Fred Miranda wrote:
You probably wouldn’t be a fan of the original Leica 50mm f/1.2 Noctilux or the Light Lens Lab version. The onion-ring bokeh in those lenses has to be seen as part of their "character".
Did the original really have onion ring bokeh? I thought the aspherics in the original were ground and not moulded. My understanding is the onion rings result from aspheric glass molds as the surface is not perfectly smooth. I believe the LLL will have onion rings and even the Leica 50 f/1.2 remake. I bet for costs they are using molds. However, the original I would be surprised if it had onion rings. Of course, I am assuming here, and you know how that goes.
cbass wrote:
Did the original really have onion ring bokeh? I thought the aspherics in the original were ground and not moulded. My understanding is the onion rings result from aspheric glass molds as the surface is not perfectly smooth. I believe the LLL will have onion rings and even the Leica 50 f/1.2 remake. I bet for costs they are using molds. However, the original I would a bit surprised if it had onion rings. Of course, I am assuming here and you know how that goes.
Yes, the original had hand-ground aspherical elements. At the time, Leica did not have the technology for mass-producing aspherical lenses, so technicians manually ground and polished the aspherical surfaces. Images from it show specular highlights with noticeable onion pattern. It was very apparent even on film. I've posted samples in the forum before.
The newly released 'reissue' Leica 50/1.2 does not have hand-ground aspherical elements unlike the original 1966 version, which required manual grinding due to manufacturing limitations at the time. I do not see much onion pattern in the newly released version's bokeh.
The irony is that the Light Lens Lab version follows Leica's hand-ground technique, making it a close match to the original. As a result, it also retains the rendering’s negative aspects.
Mar 16, 2025 at 12:27 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
cbass wrote:
Did the original really have onion ring bokeh? I thought the aspherics in the original were ground and not moulded. My understanding is the onion rings result from aspheric glass molds as the surface is not perfectly smooth. I believe the LLL will have onion rings and even the Leica 50 f/1.2 remake. I bet for costs they are using molds. However, the original I would be surprised if it had onion rings. Of course, I am assuming here, and you know how that goes.
It isn't whether aspheric lens surface is ground or moulded that creates the onion pattern it is how fine the grinding or moulding process is. The finer the grinding process or the smoother the mould the less you will see onion rings. Think of it this way, that if you can polish the glass smooth enough to prevent onion rings, then you can polish the inside of the mould smooth enough to prevent onion rings. In the last decade or so advances in how smooth you can polish glass and the mould has advanced and that is why now we are seeing asphericals without noticeable onion ring patterns.
Would folks consider this the best 90mm for m-mount for the price? Thinking about getting it and maybe use a filter if the image is too clinical for soft portraits.
JosiahSlade wrote:
Would folks consider this the best 90mm for m-mount for the price? Thinking about getting it and maybe use a filter if the image is too clinical for soft portraits.
As has been discussed....depends on use. Do you want a great all around 90 for a decent price, sure. Do you want a travel 90 excellent for landscapes? Get a Leica 90 macro or ZM 85 f/4. Do you want highest resolution? Get a Leica 90 APO or ZM 85 f/2. Do you want some character for portraits? Get a 90 Cron III.
JosiahSlade wrote:
Would folks consider this the best 90mm for m-mount for the price? Thinking about getting it and maybe use a filter if the image is too clinical for soft portraits.
If you judge it by resolving power and high contrast, I'd say it's currently the best 90mm f/2 for the M-mount. Wide open, it surpasses the Leica 90mm f/2 APO in these aspects.
For portraits, I followed @Steve Spencer's advice and tried the Leica 90/2 pre-ASPH (v3), and it has become my favorite lens for this purpose.
rsolti13 wrote:
As has been discussed....depends on use. Do you want a great all around 90 for a decent price, sure. Do you want a travel 90 excellent for landscapes? Get a Leica 90 macro or ZM 85 f/4. Do you want highest resolution? Get a Leica 90 APO or ZM 85 f/2. Do you want some character for portraits? Get a 90 Cron III.
I would agree whole heartedly with this assessment having used most of the lenses you mentioned at one time or another. I currently have/use the 90mm f2.8 Elmarit-M and it may be a very good compromise for all around use. Wide open, especially centrally, a nice balance of softness with good detail and moderate microcontrast for portraits. Stopped down to f4 and beyond, it has very good resolution and sharpness across most the frame, especially in the outer zones when stopped down to f5.6 and f8. Size, speed and weight wise is also a very good compromise for all around use, not to mention the built-in sliding hood.
Although not exactly the same, the 90mm f2.0 Cron III (pre AA) renders somewhat similarly to the 90mm f2.8 Elmarit-M but the former may have the edge for portrait work whereas the latter may have the edge for landscapes.
In a slightly alternative focal length,the Voigtlander 75mm f2.5 is small, light and relatively inexpensive and a good copy is almost on par with the Leica 75mm f2.5/2.4 Summarit lens, very sharp from wide open, decent for portraits but may be somewhat too sharp, but excellent for mid-distance and landscape work.
So many good choices in 75 and 90mm lenses these days. As the saying goes, pick your poison.
@Steve Spencer, I've been testing the Leica 90mm f/2 Summicron Pre-ASPH (v3) for a few days now, comparing it directly to other lenses, including the Leica 90mm f/2 Summicron APO ASPH. Based on everything I'd read, I expected the Pre-ASPH version to lag noticeably in resolution and contrast, with more pronounced axial CA. After putting the two 90mm lenses side by side, here's what I've found when shooting both wide open:
The Pre-ASPH delivers slightly lower (micro/macro) contrast, affecting both the focused subject and the out-of-focus areas. As for resolution, the APO outperforms the pre-apsh when wide open but broadly speaking, both are sharp lenses. The APO's higher contrast does lend a bit more structure to its rendering, though the improvement is subtle. Surprisingly, both lenses show similar outlining in specular highlights, which was surprising to me. The standout difference, however, is optical vignetting. That's the giveaway for me: the Pre-ASPH shows stronger optical vignetting, resulting in that classic cat-eye bokeh shape toward the corners.
Another unexpected finding is axial CA. I assumed the Pre-ASPH would show significantly more, but in my tests under high-contrast lighting, they're neck-and-neck, both displaying similar levels of green/magenta fringing.
For those curious, the Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO produces a smoother rendering than either Leica lens and has much lower axial CA...almost none.
I've attached some crops to highlight the differences between the two Leica versions:
Corner area: optical vignetting differences
Corner area: optical vignetting differences
Differences in axial chromatic aberration correction
Differences in axial chromatic aberration correction
The APO offers more structure in the rendering, while the pre-asph is smoother
Differences in axial chromatic aberration correction
I also want to share a couple of crops to show how much better the Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO handles axial CA (as a true APO lens), how its rendering is smoother, and how it compares in terms of optical vignetting. Its "optical" vignetting is closer to the pre-asph version, while the Leica 90mm f/2 APO has the least optical vignetting of the three.
In resolution and contrast wide open, the Voigtlander noticeably outperforms the pre-ASPH and delivers similar resolution to the Leica APO, though with higher contrast at f/2.
The Voigtlander exhibits lower axial CA.
The Voigtlander produces a smoother rendering around center area
The Voigtlander shows similar levels of optical vignetting to the pre-asph, though at a slightly lower level.
rsolti13 wrote:
not the contrast, just the resolution is superior to the Voigtlander 90 f/2 APO
I've confirmed this to be true. When stopped down to f/8, due to diffraction, the Leica 90mm f/2 pre-ASPH (v3) almost matches the resolution and contrast of the Leica 90 APO across the image field. However, the APO is pure magic at f/5.6, still holding a slight advantage, which is impressive for the pre-ASPH.
Stopped down, both the pre-ASPH and Leica APO outperform the Voigtlander at f/5.6 in resolution, but only in the mid-zone. I also noticed that the Leica 90mm f/2 APO exhibits almost no lateral CA, while the pre-ASPH shows noticeable levels of it.
Fred,
I have and love the voigtlander 50mm f/2 apo. It is brilliant, clear and has gorgious color rendition. I find its clarity and resoltion as well as sharpness outstaning especially as I shoot it on the Leica m11 mono. (for color, I use the sony 7cr).
Do you feel the voigtlander 90mm f/2 apo is in the same league as the aforementioed traits of the 5omm. How close is it?
Don't care much about the pre-asoph as I have verson 3 and love it for portraits. the. Not interested in the leica apo - too expensive.
Am considering this 90mm apo, though.
Oh, I have the cv 90/2.8; otherwise, I'd just get this. But not sure.
Thanks for any light you can shed on the above.
Joe D
tunisia wrote:
Fred,
I have and love the voigtlander 50mm f/2 apo. It is brilliant, clear and has gorgious color rendition. I find its clarity and resoltion as well as sharpness outstaning especially as I shoot it on the Leica m11 mono. (for color, I use the sony 7cr).
Do you feel the voigtlander 90mm f/2 apo is in the same league as the aforementioed traits of the 5omm. How close is it?
Don't care much about the pre-asoph as I have verson 3 and love it for portraits. the. Not interested in the leica apo - too expensive.
Am considering this 90mm apo, though.
Oh, I have the cv 90/2.8; otherwise, I'd just get this. But not sure.
Thanks for any light you can shed on the above.
Joe D ...Show more →
Joe,
Absolutely. If I could have only one 90mm lens for the M, it would be the Voigtlander 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron. It's a true APO lens, even better corrected than the Voigtlander 50mm f/2 APO-Lanthar. A solid trio of well-corrected lenses could be the new CV 28mm f/2 APO-Lanthar, 50mm f/2 APO-Lanthar, and 90mm f/2 APO-Ultron. I'd definitely trade your f/2.8 for the f/2. The latter is significantly better off-axis and gives you an extra stop of blur while remaining about the same size.
Well, cool and thanks for the quick reply, Fred.
That clinches it, it's a must buy now.
I just love the 50 and to see this is not only as good but so better corrected for this type of photography is a no-brainer.
Joe D
That 28/50/90 apo trio is exactly what I'm looking to utilize once the 28 is available, presuming that it performs as well as the other CV APOs. That will be pretty much perfect for a lot of my work.
rsolti13 wrote:
As has been discussed....depends on use. Do you want a great all around 90 for a decent price, sure. Do you want a travel 90 excellent for landscapes? Get a Leica 90 macro or ZM 85 f/4. Do you want highest resolution? Get a Leica 90 APO or ZM 85 f/2. Do you want some character for portraits? Get a 90 Cron III.
Going back and looking through my test, I agree it was more stopped down, f/5.6 to f/8 area where the Cron performed better around the edges. I would say about 80% out from center, even at f/4 the Cron was slightly ahead, so field curvature may be at play a little. What I want a 90 for though is portraits, and I think the softness/painterly look in the images from the Cron are excellent. Two examples below, the softness of the Cron is quite evident when comparing, almost like its either slightly larger than f/2 or the Voigt APO is just slightly smaller. The bokeh balls are bigger with the Cron. Also, notice how the Voigt APO has more structure in the out of focus areas. Contrast plays a part, but just not as smooth as the Cron
Sorry if it’s already been stated and I missed it but how does this M-mount 90mm APO perform on the Sony sensor vs native M? I believe Fred showed that the 50mm M-version does rather poorly on Sony. Just trying to see if it’s something that worth playing with on Sony or if we should expect a Sony version some time in the future.
Mar 25, 2025 at 06:23 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
morpheus2891 wrote:
Sorry if it’s already been stated and I missed it but how does this M-mount 90mm APO perform on the Sony sensor vs native M? I believe Fred showed that the 50mm M-version does rather poorly on Sony. Just trying to see if it’s something that worth playing with on Sony or if we should expect a Sony version some time in the future.
Here are Fred's results from earlier in the thread on page 7:
rsolti13, your most recent image pairs place the Summicron clear of the new 90/2 CV for portraiture, in my opinion. It shows greater depth from the soft OOF glowiness (a lovely look) and lower contrast, so it does not force the viewing eye to work as hard. The CV's structure interferes with the focal plane-background relationship, and shadow detail is always a bonus for axial continuity. Balls are less prominent too. A smooth operator.
