I guess it depends somewhat on personal expectations. Definitely we need more examples, which will come once the lens is in the wild. But for now, I'm just happy that the bokeh fringing that is visible with the 90 is such that you really have to look for it. It's more obvious with the 75 and 35/1.4 Otus ML.
The handling was really nice with this one, with the focusing tab and overall focusing feel. I have a lot of 75mm lenses though, including CV 75/1.9 Ultron VM which can focus to 0.5m and is overall very nice, so I'm not considering to buy this one.
From the 2 VMs, I might consider the 90/4 as I was impressed with the IQ, although I don't shoot 90mm that often and I already have Sigma 90/2.8 DG DN (E-mount) that is also pretty compact and light and can also focus close (0.5m).
I asked one member of Cosina staff at the counter about whether they had any plans to bring the 90/4 to mirrorless but they said there were no plans so far. ...Show more →
Physically this lens looks great for M use and agree about inclusion of the focusing tab. The hood design for this and the 90 is a good solution for keeping the lenses compact and eliminating additional viewfinder blockage.
Based on the photos I'm slightly less impressed compared to the 90/4. It looks to be sharp, though it's difficult to tell if it holds sharpness well across the frame, adapted to a non-M sensor. I didn't see LoCA at the point of focus but there is some noticeable in out of focus high contrast transitions. Definitely more than the 90. Out of focus transition at near distances also seems to pick up slight SA haziness.
I'm really liking what I see from the 90/4, especially if it maintains a flat plane of focus at far distances adapted to non-M sensors. I'm a bit torn though about this vs. the 90/2 APO, which doesn't adapt quite as well but is obviously two stops faster with the additional options that brings, plus it's ridiculously priced right now in Japan. I can't see the 90/4 landing for much less, if at all, given that it's a new release. My only nitpick with the 90/4 is that it appears to be a little longer than I expected based on the initial product images. But it is what it is.
rscheffler wrote:
I'm really liking what I see from the 90/4, especially if it maintains a flat plane of focus at far distances adapted to non-M sensors. I'm a bit torn though about this vs. the 90/2 APO, which doesn't adapt quite as well but is obviously two stops faster with the additional options that brings, plus it's ridiculously priced right now in Japan. I can't see the 90/4 landing for much less, if at all, given that it's a new release. My only nitpick with the 90/4 is that it appears to be a little longer than I expected based on the initial product images. But it is what it is. ...Show more →
Aside from the 2 stop difference between the CV 90/2 and 90/4 APO lenses, the CV 90/2 focuses down to 0.9m while the newer 90mm f/4 extends down to 0.5m. Depending on your needs, that may be hard to overlook.
@ftllens and @Juha Kannisto, thank you for sharing the photos of the new lenses and the sample images as well.
The CV 75mm f/2.8 APO looks like a very interesting addition. It's impressively compact for a 75mm, and the focusing tab is a welcome touch. Even with the tab, Cosina also included a nicely designed focusing ring, and its pattern and thickness remind me a bit of the aperture ring on the CV 35mm f/1.5 Nokton.
The 90mm f/4 APO appears to be slightly more corrected for axial CA, but I would expect the 75mm to be one of those tele lenses that shows virtually no color error in real world use.
It is still early to draw conclusions, but I tend to agree with @dan98 that the CV 90mm f/4 has a bit of personality in the rendering, similar to the CV 50mm f/3.5 APO-Lanthar.
Thank you for the great report and especially for the photos. Lanthar is not as compact as it seemed. I really like the Skopar 90mm 2.8 and I think it will be enough for me in the future. I really liked the Skopar 75mm. Honestly, I don't think there's anything missing between the 50mm and 90mm, but it might come in handy sometime. I like the photos from Septon the most. Voigtlander did that.
RoamingScott wrote:
The Z lineup is getting more and more fleshed out, love to see it. Cosina will really do anything but make a Z 21mm though, won't they?
Juha Kannisto wrote:
The first lens I tried at CP+ today was Septon 40/2 for E-mount. I really enjoyed the handling and the light weight of the lens on my A7CII, I think it's going to be a great one on the compact cameras like A7C series. At least today Cosina staff had no problem allowing the lenses to be tried out in the entire Cosina CP+ area although in the official CP+ announcement the trials were meant to be at the counter only. Perhaps they will be more restrictive during the weekend when CP+ typically gets more crowded.
Can't really judge the IQ based on limited sample shooting at the CP+ booth area but it looked fine to me based on initial impressions, sharp at the focused point and with pleasant bokeh rendering at least when shooting at close distance.
A small number of initial samples as there wasn't so much different stuff to shoot at the Cosina area. I exported these from A7CII RAW files through C1 Pro, just adjusting white balance and exposure a bit when it felt too warm due to the event space lights.
After I had started my trials with the lens, Cosina's marketing head Sato-san (who does all their product introductions in their YouTube videos) appeared and came to chat with me (he remembers me from past events). I expressed my appreciation for the new Septon release and re-iterated that we definitely need a 28mm pancake in similar size & style to be paired with it. I didn't get any clear indication on whether it's in the plans or not, but I hope it's in the plans already Definitely strong sales of the original Septon would also help with that.
I mentioned that the hood is a little strange and he called it a 不思議 (fushigi) hood, which translates to mysterious or to wonder (as in Alice in Wonderland). He mentioned that one of the reasons to make it like this was to allow use of same lens cap with or without the hood as they usually made small caps for the dome hood openings and people tend to lose those etc. I was wondering if LH-90IIS hood might also be perfectly usable on Septon since it looks exactly like LH-40N that was made for one of the old versions of Ultron 40./2. He said they haven't really confirmed whether it would cause any vignetting etc... We couldn't talk too long as he had to go talk with some other folks soon after and I continued my trials with the lens.
Some product shots (a few showing the lens on camera taken with smartphone, and a few taken from display case containing Septon lenses later with my A7CII & 90/4 APO-Lanthar and 75/2.8 APO-Skopar)....Show more →
Juha, Lovely product shots and sample images. They already give a nice glimpse of the rendering character, especially with subjects focused at mid distance.
Regarding Sato san’s comment about the "wonder" hood, that is exactly how it works. The same 52mm cap fits whether the hood is attached or not, which I find very practical. It is also a compact hood, only about 8mm in length, and imo matches this pancake style lens very well.
I have started a review on the Voigtlander 40mm f/2 Septon Aspherical here:
Fred Miranda wrote:
Aside from the 2 stop difference between the CV 90/2 and 90/4 APO lenses, the CV 90/2 focuses down to 0.9m while the newer 90mm f/4 extends down to 0.5m. Depending on your needs, that may be hard to overlook.
That's true. Honestly, I don't shoot much close up but I also just ordered the new Shoten Leica M to Canon RF adapter. It has a 4mm helicoid, which would allow the 90/2 to focus a bit closer when adapted. Obviously it wouldn't be relevant for use on Leica M, though there is the Leica macro adapter. That would necessitate EVF use, in which case I'd probably just use it on my Canon gear instead.
Juha Kannisto wrote:
The first lens I tried at CP+ today was Septon 40/2 for E-mount. I really enjoyed the handling and the light weight of the lens on my A7CII, I think it's going to be a great one on the compact cameras like A7C series. At least today Cosina staff had no problem allowing the lenses to be tried out in the entire Cosina CP+ area although in the official CP+ announcement the trials were meant to be at the counter only. Perhaps they will be more restrictive during the weekend when CP+ typically gets more crowded.
Can't really judge the IQ based on limited sample shooting at the CP+ booth area but it looked fine to me based on initial impressions, sharp at the focused point and with pleasant bokeh rendering at least when shooting at close distance.
A small number of initial samples as there wasn't so much different stuff to shoot at the Cosina area. I exported these from A7CII RAW files through C1 Pro, just adjusting white balance and exposure a bit when it felt too warm due to the event space lights.
After I had started my trials with the lens, Cosina's marketing head Sato-san (who does all their product introductions in their YouTube videos) appeared and came to chat with me (he remembers me from past events). I expressed my appreciation for the new Septon release and re-iterated that we definitely need a 28mm pancake in similar size & style to be paired with it. I didn't get any clear indication on whether it's in the plans or not, but I hope it's in the plans already Definitely strong sales of the original Septon would also help with that.
I mentioned that the hood is a little strange and he called it a 不思議 (fushigi) hood, which translates to mysterious or to wonder (as in Alice in Wonderland). He mentioned that one of the reasons to make it like this was to allow use of same lens cap with or without the hood as they usually made small caps for the dome hood openings and people tend to lose those etc. I was wondering if LH-90IIS hood might also be perfectly usable on Septon since it looks exactly like LH-40N that was made for one of the old versions of Ultron 40./2. He said they haven't really confirmed whether it would cause any vignetting etc... We couldn't talk too long as he had to go talk with some other folks soon after and I continued my trials with the lens.
Some product shots (a few showing the lens on camera taken with smartphone, and a few taken from display case containing Septon lenses later with my A7CII & 90/4 APO-Lanthar and 75/2.8 APO-Skopar). ...Show more →
Quite a bit of LoCA there on the little Septon, at least wide open at close focus. Thanks for the write up and samples!
freaklikeme wrote:
You have my empathy. After buying the Otus 85 and preordering the 35, that sweet little AL 90/4 is going to have to wait until the end of the year.
I might figure out some trades I could do to make the 35/1.4 fit in my budget by the time it gets released in Japan. I'm not preordering but I think it will be widely available in stock here when released, as that was the case with previous Otus MLs as well. I'm guessing it will be released near end of April here, just before Golden Week holidays as the previous Otus MLs came out at end of their release months on Japan (and some weeks earlier in few other markets).
Juha Kannisto wrote:
I might figure out some trades I could do to make the 35/1.4 fit in my budget by the time it gets released in Japan. I'm not preordering but I think it will be widely available in stock here when released, as that was the case with previous Otus MLs as well. I'm guessing it will be released near end of April here, just before Golden Week holidays as the previous Otus MLs came out at end of their release months on Japan (and some weeks earlier in few other markets).
Good luck. I hope it works out. I know I'm excited to get mine.
Fred Miranda wrote:
Juha, Lovely product shots and sample images. They already give a nice glimpse of the rendering character, especially with subjects focused at mid distance.
Regarding Sato san’s comment about the "wonder" hood, that is exactly how it works. The same 52mm cap fits whether the hood is attached or not, which I find very practical. It is also a compact hood, only about 8mm in length, and imo matches this pancake style lens very well.
I have started a review on the Voigtlander 40mm f/2 Septon Aspherical here:
Thanks Fred! I'm following your review. I hope Cosina will announce the release date for the E-mount lens soon as well, though I expect it to be somewhere in 2nd half of March.
The only thing that bugs me a little about the hood is that I would have personally preferred a traditional extra slim profile dome hood with a smaller cap for the opening, without additional features, mostly for the way it looks. It's a very minor thing though.
Juha Kannisto wrote:
Thanks Fred! I'm following your review. I hope Cosina will announce the release date for the E-mount lens soon as well, though I expect it to be somewhere in 2nd half of March.
The only thing that bugs me a little about the hood is that I would have personally preferred a traditional extra slim profile dome hood with a smaller cap for the opening, without additional features, mostly for the way it looks. It's a very minor thing though.
I also like the thinner hood design used on the Voigtlander 28mm f/2 and 40mm f/2 Fuji X-mount lenses. It looks like the new 75mm f/2.8 APO follows a similar concept, and I think that approach suits these compact lenses very well.
In that sense, the Septon's hood could probably be made even smaller if it did not follow the “wonder hood” philosophy. On the other hand, the Septon hood allows you to attach filters to the front of the hood itself, may be more practical.
Thinking about the 75mm f/2.8 APO-Color-Skopar, I really can't recall seeing a 75mm quite like this before, especially with a focusing tab. That alone makes it feel pretty unique. Cosina did make the 75mm f/2.5 Color Skopar with a 43mm filter thread and 1m MFD, but that lens was about 10mm longer and it was not an APO design. The 75mm f/1.9 Ultron is faster, of course, but it is also larger.
In terms of size, APO correction, and the addition of a tab, this lens really started its own niche. Cosina also seems careful to prioritize compactness so the Leica M framelines remain unobstructed.
I revisited CP+ today and had a chance to talk more with Cosina's Sato-san. I asked him about whether Cosina has any plans to bring out the new 90/4 and/or 75/2.8 to mirrorless. It seems they consider the slow APOs to be only for M as small size is appreciated especially by rangefinder users and mirrorless users would want brighter lenses and wouldn't get excited about slow APOs (as per Cosina's understanding). Probably there will be another longer and brighter F2 (?) APO-Lanthar sometime in the future for mirrorless too.
Cosina also has many more ideas for mirrorless (including E-mount) so more lenses should be coming. Not sure what they will be though. I repeated hopes for another compact pancake 28mm to match with Septon. He wouldn't say anything about that but I think it's likely to come. Septon seems to be popular based on early demand.
I also discussed the seeming shortages of some of their lens supply recently, esp. 28/2. He said they always try to make enough to meet initial demand at launch but it seems to be difficult to measure how much it will be as a lot of orders keep coming dynamically.
Apparently the new Septon for E will come out in late March (maybe near the end of the month) and Otus ML 35/1.4 near the end of April in Japan. Otus production is always most challenging due to most stringent quality checks and criteria. He also mentioned that Otus ML 35mm is the highest quality one of the ML series in terms of IQ.
We also talked a lot about cameras and different design of CV lenses for Sony vs. Nikon etc. Cosina clearly has market feedback indicating that many Sony users don't want old traditional styling while Nikon users are very particular about it and they try to keep Sony styling simpler to match the look of the cameras. I personally like their current new Sony styling a lot so I didn't make any requests about that, but I mentioned that it seems that there are various camps of those who prefer the new and those who prefer their earlier Sony designs.
Juha Kannisto wrote:
I revisited CP+ today and had a chance to talk more with Cosina's Sato-san. I asked him about whether Cosina has any plans to bring out the new 90/4 and/or 75/2.8 to mirrorless. It seems they consider the slow APOs to be only for M as small size is appreciated especially by rangefinder users and mirrorless users would want brighter lenses and wouldn't get excited about slow APOs (as per Cosina's understanding). Probably there will be another longer and brighter F2 (?) APO-Lanthar sometime in the future for mirrorless too.
Cosina also has many more ideas for mirrorless (including E-mount) so more lenses should be coming. Not sure what they will be though. I repeated hopes for another compact pancake 28mm to match with Septon. He wouldn't say anything about that but I think it's likely to come. Septon seems to be popular based on early demand.
I also discussed the seeming shortages of some of their lens supply recently, esp. 28/2. He said they always try to make enough to meet initial demand at launch but it seems to be difficult to measure how much it will be as a lot of orders keep coming dynamically.
Apparently the new Septon for E will come out in late March (maybe near the end of the month) and Otus ML 35/1.4 near the end of April in Japan. Otus production is always most challenging due to most stringent quality checks and criteria. He also mentioned that Otus ML 35mm is the highest quality one of the ML series in terms of IQ.
We also talked a lot about cameras and different design of CV lenses for Sony vs. Nikon etc. Cosina clearly has market feedback indicating that many Sony users don't want old traditional styling while Nikon users are very particular about it and they try to keep Sony styling simpler to match the look of the cameras. I personally like their current new Sony styling a lot so I didn't make any requests about that, but I mentioned that it seems that there are various camps of those who prefer the new and those who prefer their earlier Sony designs....Show more →
It would make perfect sense for them to release a CV 28/2.8 E and Z-mount in a true pancake form next. That's basically the same rollout they did for the Fuji X-mount. First came the CV 40/2, then the 28/2.8 Color Skopar followed.
Juha Kannisto wrote:
I revisited CP+ today and had a chance to talk more with Cosina's Sato-san. I asked him about whether Cosina has any plans to bring out the new 90/4 and/or 75/2.8 to mirrorless. It seems they consider the slow APOs to be only for M . . . .
I'll look forward to tests of those lenses on a Sony body. (Please.) I enjoy using the 85/4 Tele-Tessar while hiking, but the new offering from Cosina seems likely to be even better performing and lighter weight.
zugzwang2 wrote:
I'll look forward to tests of those lenses on a Sony body. (Please.) I enjoy using the 85/4 Tele-Tessar while hiking, but the new offering from Cosina seems likely to be even better performing and lighter weight.
Check Juha's earlier post for a link to images from the two new VM lenses on his Sony camera. IMO it looks like there is very minimal (if any) noticeable image quality reduction caused by the Sony sensor stack with the VM 90/4. But we'll only know how much if Fred does his usual review of these lenses.
It has been ages since I've used the ZM 85/4 but my impression, based on Juha's images with the 90/4, is that it has better wide open sharpness and overall 'snap.' It will be interesting to see the Lanthar's MTFs once those are released by Cosina. The ZM is 'only' around 70% at 40lp/mm, is somewhat heavier and ~15mm longer. Plus the ZM's hood makes it even longer, whereas Cosina decided on a flat hood design instead.
