fredmiranda.com

Moderated by: Fred Miranda

New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site

New Feature: SMS Notification alert

New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist

FM Forums | Film Is Not Dead Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1 2 3 … 5

7 … 12 13 end

Archive 2024 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

johnvanr
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #1 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

madNbad wrote:
Both Nikon and Zeiss brought out new rangefinder cameras at the turn of the century. Sales were not what they expected and both were discontinued. No other camera company is going to invest the time and money to challenge Leica for their small share of the market. They�re too worried about how to survive in the age of the cell phone.

My gut feeling is that Zeiss will indeed not enter that market, but that they�re actually making plenty of money with supplying lenses to other markets, including mobile phones etc..

With Nikon we never know. The Zf seems to do well. What�s to say they can�t use that tech to put in a classic rangefinder model.

The market for smaller cameras and for retro cameras has changed quite a bit, with film point and shoots and the Fuji x100 series being popular.

Dec 19, 2024 at 04:48 AM

1bwana1
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #2 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

johnvanr wrote:
Well, they�re overpriced for what they are. But so are all luxury goods. As long as they sell, they are priced well.

I think the irony is that if any Chinese company would launch a competitor, it would have to be really cheap to make an impact. Only a rangefinder under the Nikon or Zeiss brands could probably catch some of the brand cachet that Leica has and uses to its full potential, and beyond.

Possibly a brand like Voigtlander with a great heritage in both lenses and rangefinder bodies could win acceptance. Especially with the Bressa name and Cosina's Japanese quality reputation.

Dec 19, 2024 at 06:12 AM

johnvanr
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #3 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

1bwana1 wrote:
Possibly a brand like Voigtlander with a great heritage in both lenses and rangefinder bodies could win acceptance. Especially with the Bressa name and Cosina's Japanese quality reputation.

If they really up the quality of the camera compared to the Voigtlander Bessa film rangefinders. As others have said, those felt very plasticky.

Dec 19, 2024 at 06:58 AM

panos.v
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #4 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

Was just thinking...Leica took a normal camera and removed the screen (-D). They also removed the colour (monochrom). By now they've done 3 generations of this process so they must know how to modularise it easily.

Why won't they do a M11-D M? Or M11-D M BP? Sounds like medicine...

They could literally offer it as an option, just like black paint or whatever. And how about this...a digital MD2. You took away the screen, well take away the finder too! Who knows. The ultimate a-la carte!

Dec 19, 2024 at 07:31 AM

joakim
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #5 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

panos.v wrote:
Was just thinking...Leica took a normal camera and removed the screen (-D).
It�s not often you see Leica and "normal camera� in the same sentence 😁

But seriously I do think you make a good point and a monochrome D would be very tempting

Dec 19, 2024 at 08:13 AM

retrofocus
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #6 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

panos.v wrote:
Was just thinking...Leica took a normal camera and removed the screen (-D). They also removed the colour (monochrom). By now they've done 3 generations of this process so they must know how to modularise it easily.

Why won't they do a M11-D M? Or M11-D M BP? Sounds like medicine...

They could literally offer it as an option, just like black paint or whatever. And how about this...a digital MD2. You took away the screen, well take away the finder too! Who knows. The ultimate a-la carte!

Too niche. Leica rather makes more special editions or paint versions to support the very profitable collector base. Or a new Leica watch with some unique features.

Dec 19, 2024 at 08:55 AM

retrofocus
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #7 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

1bwana1 wrote:
Possibly a brand like Voigtlander with a great heritage in both lenses and rangefinder bodies could win acceptance. Especially with the Bressa name and Cosina's Japanese quality reputation.

It is possible, but I kind of doubt it. Their focus is now all in lenses with likely not much intention to enter again the camera (M) market. Chinese companies have two advantages over Western and Japanese ones to get it done: 1. They are government subsidized - main reason also whey their good M lenses are relatively cheap. The Chinese government is interested that their companies enter Western markets, become competitors of Leica and Voigtlander, and shake the system. 2. They have the willingness to expand and seek new business areas. We can clearly see it with Chinese EV companies like Neo. Came out of nowhere about 10 years ago, and it now one of the market leaders in EVs.

If I needed to bet to predict if there is an EVF-M hitting the market with reasonable/lower price tag and sooner than later, it would be fore sure a Chinese manufacturer trying to get some of the Leica cake. I hope it happens - only then Leica is pushed to bring something similar on the table itself.

Dec 19, 2024 at 01:09 PM

airfrogusmc
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #8 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

Dec 19, 2024 at 02:41 PM

RexGig0
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #9 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

I am glad that I was able to buy into the Leica M system in early 2018, with a new M10, before the drastic prices increases occurred, before Leica products became more �Veblen goods� than they already were. I no longer recall the price, but it was well under $7K US, perhaps as low as ~$6.5K. (I remember paying about the same for a M10 as I had for my new Nikon D5.) Perhaps prompted by the widespread acceptance of the M10, compared to the M Type 240-series, Leica started yearly price bumps, for the M-series �base model� bodies, that all too soon climbed to ~$9K US.

Notably, my �grail quest� had been a Nikon Nikkor 600mm f/4 or 400mm f/2.8 �super telephoto� lens, a plan which had been suspended due to a left rotator cuff injury. I bought a well-preserved, pre-owned Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, the new M10, and a Zeiss Otus 85mm ZF.2 (Nikon F mount) for less than the retail list price for either of those �super telephoto� lenses, so, the shift to Leica M actually served to shift me away from what had become a very expensive obsession. By the time my shoulder was rehabilitated, I was no longer interested in chasing rare and unusual birds around the world.

I had visited that pre-owned Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, several times, trying it on pre-owned and demonstrator M9 and M Type 240 cameras, confirming that I liked its rendering, its handling qualities, and that I liked using a rangefinder to focus. I was not certain that I would be buying a Leica camera, to partner with the Summilux, at the moment that I decided to buy the lens. (I remember doing much internettin�, on the matter of adapters.)

I will never be on any waiting list for the next new M camera. My M10 may well remain the only M camera I buy new. I later added a pre-owned M Type 246 Monochrom. Now and then, I will check the going rate for decent pre-owned M10 Monochrom cameras.

I finally did buy a new Leica M lens, in June 2023, a Re-Edition Street Rim Summilux 35mm. It may well remain the only Leica M lens that I buy new, rather than pre-owned.

Dec 19, 2024 at 03:02 PM

RoamingScott
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #10 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

airfrogusmc wrote:
Here's the reality for me. I had Canon digital for a decade. (Still have my film Canon F-1s since the late 70s and early 80s) I went all Leica digital 9 years ago. I had far more issues with my Canons than I've had with my Leicas. Far more. And that would include the two Leicas I sent back for the sensor recall. Mirror fell out in a month old camera. Had a complete shutter failure when I was shooting at NATO in 2012 here on Chicago. And had a !Ds Mk III from CPS show up DOA. The one...Show more →

I don't doubt it...mirror Canons were a special level of hell.

And you're shooting with the last "good" generation of Leicas, so again, no surprise there.

When the overarching consensus is "don't preorder, don't first adopt, actually maybe just invest in the 5 year old generation" then the "luxury" brand has a problem.

Dec 19, 2024 at 03:08 PM

1bwana1
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #11 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

RoamingScott wrote:
This thread is really interesting from a psychological perspective. So many view current-day-Leica through Leica-the-way-it-was lenses.

Being a luxury brand is all fine and good if you're offering a materially better product, materially better support, etc. In the last 12-24 months that entire argument for this particular luxury brand has been completely upended by countless horror stories here and beyond.

It's really, really, REALLY hard for some folks who are deep in a brand's briar patch to see the entire forest.

airfrogusmc wrote:
Here's the reality for me. I had Canon digital for a decade. (Still have my film Canon F-1s since the late 70s and early 80s) I went all Leica digital 9 years ago. I had far more issues with my Canons than I've had with my Leicas. Far more. And that would include the two Leicas I sent back for the sensor recall. Mirror fell out in a month old camera. Had a complete shutter failure when I was shooting at NATO in 2012 here on Chicago. And had a !Ds Mk III from CPS show up DOA. The one...Show more →

It is possible that releasing products with problems ac damage a brand badly. Look at what happened with Nikon's very poor entrance into the mirrorless market. It almost destroyed the company, and seem to have permanently placed them in a third or fourth place position in the mirrorless camera market.

But, the vast majority of leica M 11 cameras did not suffer problems or cause user anger. On fact the opposite seems to be true in Leica's case. Rather than being diminished as Nikon was, Leica has had it's best few years ever recently. Most Leica products remain in higher demand that manufacturing capacity can fill. If this is what being "upended" means then Leica would probably like more of it.

The trees I see in my Leica forest is that I can sell my Leica gear for far more than I paid for it. That makes the Leica ownership experience the least expensive camera system to own I have ever had. Hey, Ray Charles could see his way through that "Briar Patch".

But more directly to airfrogusmc's point, every company sometimes have releases that are not perfect and have teething pains. That doesn't tend to destroy a brand as long as it doesn't become systematic or long term as it did in Nikon's case. Still even then, Nikon has been able to recover, caught up technologically, and is now executing well as a much smaller company with a bright future.

Leica is executing its company plan and market positioning very well these days. Despite problems in some areas like service times, its user base seems very happy to be using Leica equipment. Using internet forum posts to judge what is really happening with a company is similar to using defective polling to predict elections. Unreliable at best as recent election has clearly demonstrated.

Dec 19, 2024 at 03:12 PM

Steve Spencer
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #12 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

Dec 19, 2024 at 08:24 PM

bwcolor
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #13 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

I couldn�t afford anything made by Leica until a bit later in life and then it was a series of used �M� film cameras as well as various Contax compact/SLR, Bronica and Mamiya medium format bodies/lenses. I still have all of these bodies and lenses, but the Contax, Bronica and Mamiya gear is pretty much are yesterday�s product. I moved to Sony from NEX-7 through the A7Rv, but rarely shot film. The M11 Monochrom provided a unique camera. Given that much of my film photography was B&W, it made sense, so I purchased my first and so far only Leica digital body. So, for me, the purchase allowed me to restrict my options..no color..but expand upon the joys of 35mm B&W film by matching, or exceeding my 6x7 film resolution, but with greatly extended ASA (just joking ISO). I think that the ownership of �M� glass encourages us to at least consider buying Leica bodies as the digital technology develops. I can�t speak for the R/SL format bodies, because I never saw the advantage of buying into these systems. I was happy with Sony and moved to Hasselblad when I wanted to try something new with larger digital camera/lens sytems.

Dec 19, 2024 at 09:36 PM

RustyBug
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #14 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

bwcolor wrote:
I couldn�t afford anything made by Leica until a bit later in life and then it was a series of used �M� film cameras as well as various Contax compact/SLR, Bronica and Mamiya medium format bodies/lenses. I still have all of these bodies and lenses, but the Contax, Bronica and Mamiya gear is pretty much are yesterday�s product. I moved to Sony from NEX-7 through the A7Rv, but rarely shot film. The M11 Monochrom provided a unique camera. Given that much of my film photography was B&W, it made sense, so I purchased my first and so far only Leica...Show more →

ASA
Hasselblad
Bronica
Contax
film
R
6x7

You must be some rich hipster that just has a lot of daddy's money and likes talking cool, retro lingo.

Surely, you couldn't be a seasoned photographer that appreciates a good tool.

Kent

ASA ... dig it.

Edited on Dec 19, 2024 at 10:02 PM · View previous versions

Dec 19, 2024 at 09:49 PM

bwcolor
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #15 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

RustyBug wrote:
ASA
Hasselblad
Bronica
Contax
film
R
6x7

You must be some rich hipster that just has a lot of daddy's money and likes talking cool, retro lingo.

Kent

ASA ... dig it.

No, my father is dead and didn�t leave much money. I grew up in a 800-1400 sq ft house and built my own darkroom with my own money around 13yo. I started working at age 9 and worked 60 hrs plus per week. So, your characterization is insulting.

Dec 19, 2024 at 10:02 PM

1bwana1
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #16 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

bwcolor wrote:
No, my father is dead and didn�t leave much money. I grew up in a 800-1400 sq ft house and built my own darkroom with my own money around 13yo. I started working at age 9 and worked 60 hrs plus per week. So, your characterization is insulting.

I think his comment was entirely tongue in cheek. No reason to be insulted.

Dec 19, 2024 at 10:04 PM

retrofocus
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #17 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

bwcolor wrote:
I think that the ownership of �M� glass encourages us to at least consider buying Leica bodies as the digital technology develops.

+1. Happened to me. In opposite to most Leica users, I vested in Leica LTM and M lenses years before I actually had my first digital M camera. I originally bought the rangefinder lenses to fit my first Leica film camera, the M6. I really started liking the small lenses, and wanted to try on digital in parallel to using my M6. For several years I adapted all LTM and M lenses to my Sony A7R which worked okay, but I got tired of always correcting in PP purple corners with wider adapted lenses. 6 years later, I bought my first and so far only color-based Leica M-E 240 as mint used copy. Currently no upgrade need for me either, still using this one and my A7R as main FF digital cameras.

Dec 19, 2024 at 10:05 PM

RustyBug
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #18 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

bwcolor wrote:
No, my father is dead and didn�t leave much money. I grew up in a 800-1400 sq ft house and built my own darkroom with my own money around 13yo. I started working at age 9 and worked 60 hrs plus per week. So, your characterization is insulting.

Oh ... no, no ... that was "jest", recognizing your long history as a seasoned photographer. So sorry, I was poking barb at others, not you. Again, apologies.

Dec 19, 2024 at 10:07 PM

bwcolor
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.6 #19 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

RustyBug wrote:
Oh ... no, no ... that was "jest", recognizing your long history as a seasoned photographer. So sorry, I was poking barb at others, not you. Again, apologies.

Mine was definitely tongue in cheek, as Steve mentions.

The reference to ASA ... yeah, I drop that term now and again, too. Had to be around a while to remember rippin' off the film box and shovin' it in the back of the camera back, as a reminder of what ASA you had loaded.

My fault.. My daughters are back from the university, so been on the defensive today. Sorry for taking it out on you. I definitely took things the wrong way.

Dec 19, 2024 at 10:37 PM

RustyBug
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.6 #20 · Why are Leicas so expensive?

bwcolor wrote:
My fault.. My daughters are back from the university, so been on the defensive today. Sorry for taking it out on you. I definitely took things the wrong way.

No worries, it happens (dang cyber-comm foibles) ... just glad you understand I value you as a good FM'er.

Dec 19, 2024 at 10:48 PM

1 2 3 … 5 6 7 … 12 13 end
FM Forums \| Film Is Not Dead Forum \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 3 … 5 6 7 … 12 13 end