p.9 #2 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?
duncangr wrote:
The door has been open for Nikon since 2011 when they released their first mirrorless camera - 1 year before Canon and 2 years before Sony.
The only surprising things is that, knowing everything we know, you continue to believe this will happen on our lifetime. I see you appear to acknowledge now that your fantasy firmware upgrade that fixes everything on the Z8/Z9 will likely never happen.
Presumably you have heard of a thing called confirmation bias.
Confirmation bias is the term used to describe the tendency of people to only accept data that confirms their existing beliefs and to ignore data that doesn't.
Mark Twain had a slightly different take on it. ...Show more →
No idea what you are talking about. I never thought or wrote that the Z8/Z9 needed any fixing nor that Nikon would release a magic firmware doing that. But I am really glad I just got shutter angle for video in a 3 years old body while Canon charges 100 US$ for a firmware doing crop lines…
I use Nikon because I think they offer the best mirrorless system at the moment with the best lenses line up, cameras that focus 95% as well as bodies 3 years younger (and more than welll enough for my diverse needs), the best hybrid video and the widest access to lenses through adapters.
This conclusion coming on top of actual ownership of the best Sony equipment. There is a lot of things to like about Sony and I could probably live with the system as I don’t do much wildlife photography. I just think that Nikon is overall the better horse for my needs.
As far as AF goes, we will see. There are 5 main factors that impact AF performance. In decreasing order of importance:
- processor speed or speed to power efficiency ratio which relates to the physical size of the camera and its thermal design (and battery capacity)
- algorithms
- AF technology (on sensor, contrast,…)
- sensor read out speed
- AF controls
I don’t see anything in the a1II that Nikon couldn’t do better with the Z9II/isn’t already doing better. The larger body of the Z9 and higher battery capacity will end up being significant advantages everything else being equal.
Both Sony and Fujitsu (Expeed) use a variation of Arm designs and have access to good enough chip manufacturing. In the end the running speed of the processor, and therefore AF ultimate performance, will depend on heat dissipation and Sony has probably locked themselves with the size of their cameras. That’s why there is no in camera video raw and why they can’t win the ultimate AF performance. IMHO. Not that it would be super relevant knowing how good current cameras already are.
But again, we will see.
Finally, just to be clear, I think that built-in TCs are a game changer for many usage patterns. Most of the people who disagree are falling for confirmation bias. Or if you don’t get what you like then like what you get. I respect that very Buddhist take on the world. I personally prefer to have options. I have more progress to make towards illumination and still care.
Many former Sony shooters already know what value they get from Nikon. Some apparently have an emotional attachment to Sony that seems to slow down their ability to acknowledge the facts and where things are headed.
I’ll say it again, now it’s mostly about lenses. Including the ability to adapt lenses from other mounts.
p.9 #3 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?
bernardl wrote:
Many former Sony shooters already know what value they get from Nikon. Some apparently have an emotional attachment to Sony that seems to slow down their ability to acknowledge the facts and where things are headed.
Cheers,
Bernard
The first part is absolute brand blind nonsense that you have posted so often I wonder of you just copy and paste in all these threads, so I won't reply directly.
I will point out that there are likely 10s of thousands former Nikon shooters happily shooting Sony and Canon very happily. While there are relatively few former Sony/Canon shooters now shooting Nikon. I think people vote with their wallets, not with forum posts. Both the facts and the market share numbers point to a different conclusion than the one you are posting.
To answer the threat title question, I haven't found the Z8.9 AF to be that much worse that Sony or Canon. The workflow is different and a bit more fussy, but in the end the AF will produce the required result.
p.9 #4 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?
1bwana1 wrote:
The first part is absolute brand blind nonsense that you have posted so often I wonder of you just copy and paste in all these threads, so I won't reply directly.
I will point out that there are likely 10s of thousands former Nikon shooters happily shooting Sony and Canon very happily. While there are relatively few former Sony/Canon shooters now shooting Nikon. I think people vote with their wallets, not with forum posts. Both the facts and the market share numbers point to a different conclusion than the one you are posting.
To answer the threat title question, I haven't found the Z8.9 AF to be that much worse that Sony or Canon. The workflow is different and a bit more fussy, but in the end the AF will produce the required result. ...Show more →
Not sure how what I wrote can be interpreted as "blind brand nonsense" when everyone seems to agree that the Z8/Z9 offer the best compromise for hybrid shooters. I am just not interested in shooting video with a body not offering in camera raw and I prefer to not lock myself in a system only enabling the usage of lenses designed for a single mount. Not sure why this is even a matter of debate. I didn't write that Nikon was the best solution for everyone, just that it is best for my needs.
Glad that we agree that the AF is already excellent, and I assume also that it can only get better.
What do you think about the relationship between body size+battery capacity and potential for AF performance? I don't remember ever posting this analysis. A bit surprised by your reaction I have to say. I guess the year has been tough for everyone.
Unfortunately another week of work for me, but I wish you a merry X-mas!
p.9 #5 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?
bernardl wrote:
No idea what you are talking about. I never thought or wrote that the Z8/Z9 needed any fixing nor that Nikon would release a magic firmware doing that. But I am really glad I just got shutter angle for video in a 3 years old body while Canon charges 100 US$ for a firmware doing crop lines…
I use Nikon because I think they offer the best mirrorless system at the moment with the best lenses line up, cameras that focus 95% as well as bodies 3 years younger (and more than welll enough for my diverse needs), the best hybrid video and the widest access to lenses through adapters.
This conclusion coming on top of actual ownership of the best Sony equipment. There is a lot of things to like about Sony and I could probably live with the system as I don’t do much wildlife photography. I just think that Nikon is overall the better horse for my needs.
As far as AF goes, we will see. There are 5 main factors that impact AF performance. In decreasing order of importance:
- processor speed or speed to power efficiency ratio which relates to the physical size of the camera and its thermal design (and battery capacity)
- algorithms
- AF technology (on sensor, contrast,…)
- sensor read out speed
- AF controls
I don’t see anything in the a1II that Nikon couldn’t do better with the Z9II/isn’t already doing better. The larger body of the Z9 and higher battery capacity will end up being significant advantages everything else being equal.
Both Sony and Fujitsu (Expeed) use a variation of Arm designs and have access to good enough chip manufacturing. In the end the running speed of the processor, and therefore AF ultimate performance, will depend on heat dissipation and Sony has probably locked themselves with the size of their cameras. That’s why there is no in camera video raw and why they can’t win the ultimate AF performance. IMHO. Not that it would be super relevant knowing how good current cameras already are.
But again, we will see.
Finally, just to be clear, I think that built-in TCs are a game changer for many usage patterns. Most of the people who disagree are falling for confirmation bias. Or if you don’t get what you like then like what you get. I respect that very Buddhist take on the world. I personally prefer to have options. I have more progress to make towards illumination and still care.
Many former Sony shooters already know what value they get from Nikon. Some apparently have an emotional attachment to Sony that seems to slow down their ability to acknowledge the facts and where things are headed.
I’ll say it again, now it’s mostly about lenses. Including the ability to adapt lenses from other mounts.
so you keep saying - but putting adapted lenses on my A1/A9iii and giving up 30/120fps and risk compromising the AF - you must be joking. That would defeat the very purpose of having bought these cameras in the first place.
But I guess if I had a Z9 and was stuck at 20fps anyway I might be more inclined to think of that as an advantage.
Anyway I am heading off to Sri Lanka for a couple of weeks carrying around just 2.5kg of camera gear.
One A9iii and 3 lenses a 300/2.8, a 420f/4 and a 600f/5.6 - just image all that lot weighing in at just 2.5kg - just crazy !!
Couldn't be happier with my choice of lens(es) - it's just one surprise after another with Sony .
p.9 #6 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?
duncangr wrote:
so you keep saying - but putting adapted lenses on my A1/A9iii and giving up 30/120fps and risk compromising the AF - you must be joking. That would defeat the very purpose of having bought these cameras in the first place.
But I guess if I had a Z9 and was stuck at 20fps anyway I might be more inclined to think of that as an advantage.
Anyway I am heading off to Sri Lanka for a couple of weeks carrying around just 2.5kg of camera gear.
One A9iii and 3 lenses a 300/2.8, a 420f/4 and a 600f/5.6 - just image all that lot weighing in at just 2.5kg - just crazy !!
Couldn't be happier with my choice of lens(es) - it's just one surprise after another with Sony .
p.9 #7 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?
Here is a review of using A1II for wildlife vs A1 ... take this video with a pinch of salt, personally I don't see anything that Z9/Z8 cannot do to get me the pics that I need vs the A1.
I still feel Canon's AF is the best we have and that's the bar Nikon should try to reach or over take.
p.9 #8 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?
tabishshaikh wrote:
Here is a review of using A1II for wildlife vs A1 ... take this video with a pinch of salt, personally I don't see anything that Z9/Z8 cannot do to get me the pics that I need vs the A1.
I still feel Canon's AF is the best we have and that's the bar Nikon should try to reach or over take.
h
He is unqualified to make any sort of evaluation as a wildlife photographer. But you are correct pretty much any modern mirrorless camera could have taken the images he showed. In fact many phones could have.
p.9 #9 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?
tabishshaikh wrote:
Here is a review of using A1II for wildlife vs A1 ... take this video with a pinch of salt, personally I don't see anything that Z9/Z8 cannot do to get me the pics that I need vs the A1.
I still feel Canon's AF is the best we have and that's the bar Nikon should try to reach or over take.
h
I haven't watched this video and don't intend to as this guy is not a wildlife photographer.
I agree Canon AF for both human/sports and birds is the best out there.
I do feel A1 AF is a bit better than the rest for BIF but the Canon is really close. Canon subject detect for non-BIF is hands down the best out there.
p.9 #10 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?
Having watched part of the video which is a commercial for Sony and Luminar Neo, actually I find that I think Manny can photograph wildlife. I thought a number of his photos were good to my taste. Obviously that is my opinion and as such you are free to form your own opinion. Watch the video at your peril. For Sony shooters, he brings up the highlights and unfortunately some of the downsides of the Sony A1-2. But mostly I enjoyed the wildlife photos.
p.9 #11 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?
Like you said, the video is an ad for Luminar, one of the shittiest companies in the game. Watching him slam sliders like a toddler to AI-ify his photos was peak YouTuber.
Safari photography always seems like a joke to me and this took it to the next level
p.9 #12 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?
1bwana1 wrote:
It seems that everyone doesn't agree. .
In fact judging by market share numbers a large majority doesn't agree.
Since you asked, I see the comically large form factors of the Z8/9 as a "huge" negative. This carries on through to many of the Z lenses.
Ok, I guess you are not interested in the technological side of the question… or know I am right and refuse to admit it. Either way, I understand better your apparent blind faith in the superiority of Sony. It for sure is comfortable to think that things will continue as they are.
As far as market share goes, you know it’s completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, right? Does Wallmart offer superior shopping experience vs Harrod’s as a result of their superior market share? Are Toyotas superior to BMWs? How about Leica? They have never made as much cash? Frankly, why are you talking about market share?
Finally, the 300mm f2.8 GM is IMHO a great addition to the portfolio of lenses I can use on my Z bodies. Even if, for my needs, the upcoming 100-300mm f2.8 or f2.8 TC will be way more useful even if it were to weight twice more. But that is just me, I have always seen photography as a result driven activity. My own comfort resulting from lower weight will always be second to the odds of getting the shot.
But I will love to have both options. I understand it’s hard to imagine the value of adapted lenses if you have chosen a system that makes it impossible. I used to be in that position as an F mount shooter. What were these EF users talking about when they were using the Nikon 14-24mm f2.8 for 8 years until Canon was able to come up with a good wide zoom lens…
Don’t get me wrong, native lenses will always perform better. But the practical question we photographers are facing isn’t that of a technical benchmark about using a camera to the best of its potential, it is whether we can get the shot. And more lenses options will always increase those odds.
p.9 #13 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?
bernardl wrote:
Ok, I guess you are not interested in the technological side of the question… or know I am right and refuse to admit it. Either way, I understand better your apparent blind faith in the superiority of Sony. It for sure is comfortable to think that things will continue as they are.
As far as market share goes, you know it’s completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, right? Does Wallmart offer superior shopping experience vs Harrod’s as a result of their superior market share? Are Toyotas superior to BMWs? How about Leica? They have never made as much cash? Frankly, why are talking about market share?
Finally, the 300mm f2.8 GM is IMHO a great addition to the portfolio of lenses I can use on my Z bodies. Even if, for my needs, the upcoming 100-300mm f2.8 or f2.8 TC will be way more useful even if it were to weight twice more. But that is just me, I have always seen photography as a result driven activity. My own comfort resulting from lower weight will always be second to the odds of getting the shot.
p.9 #14 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?
1bwana1 wrote:
Actually I was just pointing out that not everyone agrees as you stated they do. That was apparent in this very thread.
Market share is very relevant to the point of your statement. People vote most acutely with their wallets.
Please Steve, let’s try to have an adult’s conversation.
What I wrote is that most people agree that the Z8/Z9 is the best option for hybrid shooters (mixing stills and video). Which most people aren’t (hybrid shooters). Knowing also that less than 1% of cameras bought are in that segment.
So regardless of whether you agree with my statement or not, how exactly are you saying that market share is relevant as a metric to invalidate my statement?
Can you please walk me through your thinking process?
p.9 #15 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?
bernardl wrote:
Please Steve, let’s try to have an adult’s conversation.
What I wrote is that most people agree that the Z8/Z9 is the best option for hybrid shooters (mixing stills and video). Which most people aren’t (hybrid shooters). Knowing also that less than 1% of cameras bought are in that segment.
So regardless of whether you agree with my statement or not, how exactly are you saying that market share is relevant as a metric to invalidate my statement?
Can you please walk me through your thinking process?
Cheers,
Bernard
Ok, let's take a walk, but no hand holding.
In my opinion if most people agreed, Nikon would have a bigger market share. They clearly don't. People who shoot both stills and video are properly part of the hybrid shooters. There are clearly more of them shooting Sony and Canon then there are shooting Z9/8. The numbers validating this are readily available. i will leave it to you to do the research.
My inclination is that most prefer a smaller, lighter form factor. Most don't require in camera RAW. They hold a different order of priorities than you do.
I think that is an adult view of the current situation.
p.9 #16 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?
1bwana1 wrote:
Ok, let's take a walk, but no hand holding.
In my opinion if most people agreed, Nikon would have a bigger market share. They clearly don't. People who shoot both stills and video are properly part of the hybrid shooters. There are clearly more of them shooting Sony and Canon then there are shooting Z9/8. The numbers validating this are readily available. i will leave it to you to do the research.
My inclination is that most prefer a smaller, lighter form factor. Most don't require in camera RAW. They hold a different order of priorities than you do.
I think that is an adult view of the current situation.
I have never seen factual market share data for the high end segment occupied by the Z8/Z9, even less so for hybrid shooters. So I do not know where to find those numbers. Can you please help?
But I can point to various sources sharing my view that for serious still and video work the Z8/Z9, although they use 3 years old tech, are still overall a better compromise than anything Sony currently has on offer.
p.9 #17 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?
bernardl wrote:
I have never seen factual market share data for the high end segment occupied by the Z8/Z9, even less so for hybrid shooters. So I do not know where to find those numbers. Can you please help?
But I can point to various sources sharing my view that for serious still and video work the Z8/Z9, although they use 3 years old tech, are still overall a better compromise than anything Sony currently has on offer.
Cheers,
Bernard
You just haven't looked hard enough. Just look up the brand market shares, then look up Sony's high volume sellers. You will see that video content creator cameras are outselling still cameras in the Sony line these days. That started some years ago.
I absolutely believe that you can find plenty of people that anecdotally share your views. After all the Z8/9 cameras do sell in quantities sufficient for that.
This may help get you started. I know it is just one source, but it is the largest retailer in the World I believe. The 50 most popular mirrorless cameras being sold by Amazon. Notice how many and how high the Sony video/vloging cameras place. Also notice that the first Nikon camera is about 41 on the list and neither the Z8/9 show up at all. IT could be said that none of the people buying these cameras agree with you.
p.9 #18 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?
You know this is absolutely not an answer, right?
- Amazon is a volume retailer and very few photographers buying high end cameras buy them from Amazon
- sales in Holliday season is always strongly biased towards newer models
- there are various segments among content creators and I of course never claimed that the Z8 is overall outselling bodies twice cheaper, although that actually did happen for the best part of a year in Japan.
Try harder is you are really confident in the point you are trying to make.
The reality being that relevant numbers are simply not available until proven otherwise.
.