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Archive 2024 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?

  
 
RexGig0
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p.3 #1 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


Short version: It is about the lenses.

This has been an interesting read.

The last time I shifted systems, for “better” AF, was in 2018. We had replaced my wife’s flooded D7000 cameras, in late 2017, with a pair of D500 cameras. I was playing with one of the D500 cameras, and its AF beat my Canons’ AF with a stick. (7D II & 5Ds R.) in 2018, after a modest, one-time, post-retirement financial windfall, I bought a D5, and then “hers & his” D850 cameras, plus, one final Canon model, a 5D Mark IV. (The Canon Macro Ring Lite II makes it very much worth it, to keep using Canon for macro field work, which is why I “shifted,” rather than “switched.”)

Not that we are luddites; my wife occasionally uses a Z6, and, there is, probably, at least one Z9 and one Z8 in our not-so-distant future. We have gravitated to macro/close range, and the larger, slower birds, so, cutting-edge AF has not been as important lately.

Ultimately, it is about the lenses. Nikon lenses’ zoom rings work in the “correct” directions. And, of course, my wife is not going to switch, regardless. Happy wife, happy life. If Mama ain’t happy, nobody is happy. (She is the senior photographer, by far.)



Nov 15, 2024 at 11:10 AM
story_teller
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p.3 #2 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


cohenfive wrote:
just curious how much greener the grass is over in canon land now...


The grass on the other side gets greener at least monthly. Camera companies continually leapfrog each other. Those more advanced cameras also have the ability to take horrible photos if the photographer isn’t skilled, but some continue to believe that the technology will make them a better photographer. It doesn’t work that way.



Nov 15, 2024 at 11:39 AM
Spectro
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p.3 #3 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


Haha, yes reminds me of the first time I walked into a golf course pro shop and saw a driver that cost $600. The club pro said “You can buy a lot of golf lessons for $600…”

story_teller wrote:
The grass on the other side gets greener at least monthly. Camera companies continually leapfrog each other. Those more advanced cameras also have the ability to take horrible photos if the photographer isn’t skilled, but some continue to believe that the technology will make them a better photographer. It doesn’t work that way.




Nov 15, 2024 at 02:27 PM
armd
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p.3 #4 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


groob wrote:
Have to echo Scott. I have no idea why you’re making things that complicated. Auto area should work for 99% of stuff and 3D or single point/small custom areas should work for the rest.


Auto Area is ok for large birds against blue skies and some small passerines on perches. With long neck birds, think Herons, Swans, etc. the AA hikes all over the place from bright spots on the neck and chest. This occurs with other passerines such as goldfinches and birds with bright variegated chests such as RTH’s. For passerines in flight, my experience with AA has been hit or miss. OK for Blue Jays, not so great with Flickers, Bluebirds, Barn Swallows, etc. With vertical diving birds, such as Pelicans and Terns, AA performs well, though no AF mode seems to track Osprey and Eagles reliably through the strike.

Yes, a C1 or single point works well for many of those situations with perched birds where AA can’t pick it up, though it’s impractical for the BIF where AA fails.



Nov 15, 2024 at 07:20 PM
suteetat
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p.3 #5 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


Very surprise to hear about problem with osprey as this is one bird that I have a chance to shoot once in awhile ever sincce Z9 came out. The usual scenario is tracking the osprey with the sky in the background and followed osprey descending down to tree line on the shore then dive into water, I always found wide area-L works perfectly well since fw 1.0 . The only time the osprey go out of focus is when it hits water, sometimes I don't slow down fast enough and over-pan (is this the word?) the shot.
I don't shoot osprey often as they are migratory here but every time I had a chance, I never thought of osprey as being all that challenging. But I heard several people now mentioned problem with osprey, not really sure why myself though.
I also shot quite a bit of sea-eagle grabbing fish in the water (but don't enter water like ospreys) and found Z8/Z9 more than capable of dealing with these scenarios.

PS for swallow, I never had better result until I got 600PF and current Z9 fw using auto area last time I tried.
Granted the background was not very busy though.



Nov 15, 2024 at 07:53 PM
gannis
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p.3 #6 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


This is exactly my experience as well. I was photographing African fish eagles in Kenya in September and never faced an issue to get the entire sequence in focus with the bird filling the frame. Wide L without subject detection works really well for BIF in my opinion. Not sure if the latest Canon/ Sony cameras can track erratic birds in auto modes with subject detection on with AF box on the eye but I have used A1 several times and didn’t find a big difference vs Z9. Where the Z cameras need to improve is on auto tracking with subject detection on and am sure the next generation pro bodies will address this, although this feature alone isn’t good enough for me to upgrade. Also, tracking against a very busy background is a challenge and I am not sure if there is any brand that can do this consistently.

suteetat wrote:
Very surprise to hear about problem with osprey as this is one bird that I have a chance to shoot once in awhile ever sincce Z9 came out. The usual scenario is tracking the osprey with the sky in the background and followed osprey descending down to tree line on the shore then dive into water, I always found wide area-L works perfectly well since fw 1.0 . The only time the osprey go out of focus is when it hits water, sometimes I don't slow down fast enough and over-pan (is this the word?) the shot.
I don't shoot osprey
...Show more




Nov 16, 2024 at 01:17 AM
RoamingScott
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p.3 #7 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


I’ve never had issues with Ospreys. White egrets tends to throw off the bird detection the worst.


Nov 16, 2024 at 01:25 AM
groob
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p.3 #8 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?




suteetat wrote:
Very surprise to hear about problem with osprey as this is one bird that I have a chance to shoot once in awhile ever sincce Z9 came out. The usual scenario is tracking the osprey with the sky in the background and followed osprey descending down to tree line on the shore then dive into water, I always found wide area-L works perfectly well since fw 1.0 . The only time the osprey go out of focus is when it hits water, sometimes I don't slow down fast enough and over-pan (is this the word?) the shot.
I don't shoot osprey
...Show more

It’s the same person who repeatedly complains about the osprey issue. But other people who shoot in the same location don’t have that issue.



Nov 16, 2024 at 09:18 AM
groob
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p.3 #9 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?




armd wrote:
Auto Area is ok for large birds against blue skies and some small passerines on perches. With long neck birds, think Herons, Swans, etc. the AA hikes all over the place from bright spots on the neck and chest. This occurs with other passerines such as goldfinches and birds with bright variegated chests such as RTH’s. For passerines in flight, my experience with AA has been hit or miss. OK for Blue Jays, not so great with Flickers, Bluebirds, Barn Swallows, etc. With vertical diving birds, such as Pelicans and Terns, AA performs well, though no AF mode seems to
...Show more

The only subject I’ve found that can cause an issue for AA is long-necked birds. But (1) it doesn’t stop me from getting in focus photos because it often grabs the neck or chest, which is generally on the same plane of focus as the eye and (2) when AA struggles too much, 3D has been rock solid for several months now on long-necked birds.



Nov 16, 2024 at 09:20 AM
armd
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p.3 #10 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


groob wrote:
It’s the same person who repeatedly complains about the osprey issue. But other people who shoot in the same location don’t have that issue.


Oh, it tracks the bird in the sky just fine, though as it approaches the water, the Z8 (two bodies) loses focus and doesn't recover for a few frames until after the strike. It's as though the predictive AF algorithms overshoot (not the shooter as I am panning perfectly). This occurs predictably and repeatedly with osprey and eagle strikes whether one is using AA, Wide S, Wide L, etc. FWIW, I've posted dozens of series demonstrating how the AF as recorded in the exif indicates that the AF is on the bird and the AF is clearly off. Ironically, this occurs at closer distances where the bird occupies most of the frame. Those who report no issues are usually Z9 users, may be shooting at farther distances where DOF might obscure AF difficulties, or don't shoot the subjects. Dismiss as you want, but those are the facts.

What's interesting about the Nikon AF system is that it requires the most user input of the big three (Nikon >> Sony > Canon) however it doesn't allow for user adjustment of subject "stickiness". Sure, it allows for minor adjustment in the a3 menu with subject obstruction and subject behavior (erratic vs. steady) though this doesn't really address the root of tracking in terms of subject sensitivity and stickiness.



Nov 16, 2024 at 11:12 AM
gannis
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p.3 #11 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


Have you tried one of the Wide modes without subject detection? I have been able to get the shots of fishing eagles without much problems. The toughest subject that i have encountered to date which challenges the AF is the diving Asian Paradise Flycatcher as they dive from a branch, full of clutter into water body nearby and every dive is unpredictable. I am posting some images for example, the African fish eagle shots below are all uncropped at 400mm/ f2.8. All these are Wide L, some with subject on and some off although i prefer turning subject detection off when i do BIF. I also have entire sequences from the take off, dive and flight after catch from this shoot that are all in focus. Of course there were some missed opportunities but that was mostly because I was on a boat and it was quite shaky that day and there were times I could not gauge the speed of the bird and keep the bird in frame, it was quite challenging to keep the bird in frame when trying to get a full frame shot at 400mm at f2.8.

GB9_8214 by Ganesh B, on Flickr


GB9_8219_2-NEF by Ganesh B, on Flickr

GB9_8545 by Ganesh B, on Flickr

Indian Paradise flycatcher by Ganesh B, on Flickr

GBZ_4462 by Ganesh B, on Flickr

GBZ_2073 by Ganesh B, on Flickr

GBZ_5406 by Ganesh B, on Flickr

GBZ_6880 by Ganesh B, on Flickr

armd wrote:
Oh, it tracks the bird in the sky just fine, though as it approaches the water, the Z8 (two bodies) loses focus and doesn't recover for a few frames until after the strike. It's as though the predictive AF algorithms overshoot (not the shooter as I am panning perfectly). This occurs predictably and repeatedly with osprey and eagle strikes whether one is using AA, Wide S, Wide L, etc. FWIW, I've posted dozens of series demonstrating how the AF as recorded in the exif indicates that the AF is on the bird and the AF is clearly off. Ironically, this
...Show more




Nov 16, 2024 at 11:56 AM
nhmorgan
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p.3 #12 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


I generally praise Nikon's current AF on the Z8 and Z9. One area they could put a little more focus on (pun intended) is the eye AF on closer subjects at wider apertures with smaller DOF. I find the Nikons rarely get the iris and almost always front focus. My A7rV does much better on this. Luckily, I don't need that much.


Nov 16, 2024 at 02:28 PM
armd
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p.3 #13 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


gannis wrote:
Have you tried one of the Wide modes without subject detection? I have been able to get the shots of fishing eagles without much problems. The toughest subject that i have encountered to date which challenges the AF is the diving Asian Paradise Flycatcher as they dive from a branch, full of clutter into water body nearby and every dive is unpredictable. I am posting some images for example, the African fish eagle shots below are all uncropped at 400mm/ f2.8. All these are Wide L, some with subject on and some off although i prefer turning subject detection off
...Show more

Super images were these the Z9 or Z8? I was heading to Conowingo this week to hopefully revisit the strikes without SD to see if the AF continues to wander off target once the bird nears the water. It's really the strangest thing, with the AF system tracking the bird in the air for multiple frames, through the dive and then a frame or two before the strike, it loses AF capture for several frames and regains it a short while after the strike. Some of these strike sequences involve over a hundred and fifty images and the OOF frames occur always at the same point in the strike with the talons rotated forward just before impact. I've posted several examples in other threads all with the same behavior. MF ring is disabled so that's not operant and the bird is always large, and panning has it centered in the frame. Vertically diving birds are no problem and the camera focuses accurately all of the way through the splash. Again, no real issues otherwise with BIF apart from small passerines coming towards the camera where I really need to turn SD off so the AF system can keep up.



Nov 16, 2024 at 08:33 PM
gannis
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p.3 #14 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


This is all with the Z9. I do agree, with subject detect on, it is a hit or miss with BIF. With Subject detect off, the Wide AF behaves almost like Group AF mode on the DSLRs. I have seen your posts before and have always wondered what was causing this, especially when the bird isn’t filling the frame. FWIW, I use Wide L with subject detect off, lock-on settings at 3, subject motion set to steady (I don’t use erratic as i feel it makes the AF way too sensitive).

armd wrote:
Super images were these the Z9 or Z8? I was heading to Conowingo this week to hopefully revisit the strikes without SD to see if the AF continues to wander off target once the bird nears the water. It's really the strangest thing, with the AF system tracking the bird in the air for multiple frames, through the dive and then a frame or two before the strike, it loses AF capture for several frames and regains it a short while after the strike. Some of these strike sequences involve over a hundred and fifty images and the OOF frames
...Show more




Nov 17, 2024 at 01:22 AM
tester_V
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p.3 #15 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


"This is all with the Z9. I do agree, with subject detect on, it is a hit or miss with BIF..."
I guess this is the point of the topic. The AF of the Nion is not on the same level with the other systems. Hopefully after the expected FW upgrade it will be.... I'm personally will buy it immediately if the AF improves...



Nov 17, 2024 at 01:54 AM
gannis
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p.3 #16 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


I don’t think this is an issue with just Nikon. I have shot side by side with my friend who uses a Sony A1 and even he prefers turning the subject detection off when doing BIF. I don’t think there is any brand today that has precise subject detection/ eye detection when photographing BIF.

tester_V wrote:
"This is all with the Z9. I do agree, with subject detect on, it is a hit or miss with BIF..."
I guess this is the point of the topic. The AF of the Nion is not on the same level with the other systems. Hopefully after the expected FW upgrade it will be.... I'm personally will buy it immediately if the AF improves...





Nov 17, 2024 at 02:18 AM
cohenfive
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p.3 #17 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


Here is an example of why I think the Z8 af is so terrible....the camera just could not focus on the duck in the middle....

Actually, I was out all day yesterday shooting at the wildlife refuge that my nonprofit supports. I was very happy with how the Z8 performed. It was able to focus on very fast moving pintail ducks all day long...I'll post one of that shortly.







Nov 17, 2024 at 11:49 AM
RoamingScott
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p.3 #18 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


Most people don’t like hearing “skill issue”. Unfortunately for them, 99% of the time it is.


Nov 17, 2024 at 12:06 PM
armd
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p.3 #19 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


cohenfive wrote:
Here is an example of why I think the Z8 af is so terrible....the camera just could not focus on the duck in the middle....

Actually, I was out all day yesterday shooting at the wildlife refuge that my nonprofit supports. I was very happy with how the Z8 performed. It was able to focus on very fast moving pintail ducks all day long...I'll post one of that shortly.


Actually, that's a very easy scene for any DSLR/MILC to capture. I'm not sure of the relevance other than to satire? If I said that I was out all day in the fields in lower light and my Z8 had no difficulty tracking and capturing RTH's in flight, what would that mean?



Nov 17, 2024 at 01:30 PM
armd
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p.3 #20 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


gannis wrote:
This is all with the Z9. I do agree, with subject detect on, it is a hit or miss with BIF. With Subject detect off, the Wide AF behaves almost like Group AF mode on the DSLRs. I have seen your posts before and have always wondered what was causing this, especially when the bird isn’t filling the frame. FWIW, I use Wide L with subject detect off, lock-on settings at 3, subject motion set to steady (I don’t use erratic as i feel it makes the AF way too sensitive).



For S&G if I photograph a distant strike where the subject is small in the frame, it has no difficulty tracking. Then again, why should it as DOF would likely obscure any errors and the AF algorithms have to perform fewer calculations. My Z8, detects and tracks cats without mercy. If only I filmed flying cats who liked to fish ;-)



Nov 17, 2024 at 01:36 PM
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