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Archive 2024 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?

  
 
cohenfive
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p.1 #1 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


I am reading threads over on the canon board where basically current nikon af is being trashed relative to the new r52 and now the r1...and to the a1. I was using the r5/6 for a few years and it was great, but I went back to nikon (z8 is my primary body) because of the great lens selection, especially in the long end. Am I really giving up that much relative to the latest canons? My thinking is that the z9/8 v2 is not all that far off, and nikon will leapfrog a bit ahead again hopefully. Don't get me wrong, I have no issues getting the shots I need with the z8's I use, just curious how much greener the grass is over in canon land now...But I wouldn't trade my long lenses for anyone, so there is that!


Nov 12, 2024 at 11:34 PM
MattStevens
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p.1 #2 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?

No... Fan boys be talking trash.

Canon does have some flash with eye detect; I'm not tech geek, but I think any improvement over Z9/8 is marginal at best.

Edited on Nov 13, 2024 at 07:44 PM · View previous versions



Nov 13, 2024 at 12:01 AM
RoamingScott
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p.1 #3 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


cohenfive wrote:
I have no issues getting the shots I need with the z8's I use


And here's why this thread didn't need to be made.



Nov 13, 2024 at 12:13 AM
SiMuMe
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p.1 #4 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


The chances of Nikon shooters objectively telling you "how much greener the grass is over in canon land now" are slim to zero, especially if they haven't shot (current) Canon. I'd say having shot some, yourself, you're likely better informed.

From a distance, it looks like Nikon shooters indeed have the best telephoto lens selection but perhaps not yet the once class-leading AF of DSLR days. If it were, it's unlikely it would have needed nearly 5 updates in under 3 years. Commendable work by the firmware dev team.



Nov 13, 2024 at 01:32 AM
unchecked
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p.1 #5 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


cohenfive wrote:
I am reading threads over on the canon board where basically current nikon af is being trashed relative to the new r52 and now the r1...and to the a1. I was using the r5/6 for a few years and it was great, but I went back to nikon (z8 is my primary body) because of the great lens selection, especially in the long end. Am I really giving up that much relative to the latest canons? My thinking is that the z9/8 v2 is not all that far off, and nikon will leapfrog a bit ahead again hopefully. Don't get
...Show more

It still has issues to work out. The main thing being even though the camera can detect the subject and draw the box, it doesn't always focus on the identified subject. This is also what's largely known as "eyelash AF".

And even when it has focus locked on, it also gets easily distracted by things in the background or foreground. Even when blocked shot response is at it's max delayed setting.

So yea. There's still room for immediate improvement.



Nov 13, 2024 at 01:44 AM
bernardl
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p.1 #6 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


What is totally insane is that some people would have you believe that the better the AF become, the larger the gap between cameras is.

The reality is obviously exactly opposite.

All the top mirrorless cameras have insanely good AF, that inludes Canon, Sony and Nikon. And I am weighting my words here.

Any photographer unable to get top notch pro result from a Z8/Z9/a1/R5II/R1 for the most demanding applications needs to look for another job. As simple as that. Of course, some Nikon fanboys may argue that the Z6III is much better than any other camera in low light, and that is probably true. But all other cameras are more than good enough really.

The key decision factor to select a system is lenses, period.

Cheers,
Bernard



Nov 13, 2024 at 04:23 AM
Laslo Varadi
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p.1 #7 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


The Z8 focuses very well. I use it for wildlife and have not experienced any significant differences between it and the Sony A1 which I shot for over 2 years. The reason why I switched is because Sony did not have a 600 or 800mm lens in the price range that I was willing to spend.


Nov 13, 2024 at 08:10 AM
1bwana1
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p.1 #8 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?




bernardl wrote:
What is totally insane is that some people would have you believe that the better the AF become, the larger the gap between cameras is.

The reality is obviously exactly opposite.

All the top mirrorless cameras have insanely good AF, that inludes Canon, Sony and Nikon. And I am weighting my words here.

Any photographer unable to get top notch pro result from a Z8/Z9/a1/R5II/R1 for the most demanding applications needs to look for another job. As simple as that. Of course, some Nikon fanboys may argue that the Z6III is much better than any other camera in low light, and that is
...Show more

That may be true if one is narrowly focused to a specific genre of photography. But I will suggest that for most attributes like form factor, workflow, and service, can be equally important.



Nov 13, 2024 at 08:22 AM
RoamingScott
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p.1 #9 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


bernardl wrote:
Any photographer unable to get top notch pro result from a Z8/Z9/a1/R5II/R1 for the most demanding applications needs to look for another job. As simple as that.


This has been the case for YEARS. If you're still making a lame thread like this in nearly 2025, you need to just bail from photography altogether, it's not for you.



Nov 13, 2024 at 09:04 AM
armd
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p.1 #10 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


It's interesting that you raise the AF topic because I am at the point of seriously considering liquidating my Nikon gear and moving back to Canon. While I really like the Z8 for airshows, vehicles, landscapes, and video, it simply doesn't AF that consistently for birds and people. The latter two constitute the majority of my work.

When shooting portraits, I find that I have to shoot 1/3rd insurance frames simply because the camera doesn't focus particularly well on the eye and often grabs the lash, cheek, eyebrow, etc. instead. Quite candidly, I don't know if this is an algorithm or hardware issue as the Z8 has no difficulty capturing cat eyes. Maybe if I lived in the bush and shot lions/leopards all day it would be fine so perhaps the solution is to move to Africa?

For birds, I notice a lot of vexing issues. For perched subjects, it has difficulty recognizing long necked birds and the AF point is not particularly sticky. It tends to jump around a lot more than my R5/R3 ever did and there is no way to adjust it. Utilizing Wide S or other AF areas can minimize this, though it doesn't eliminate it. Last night, I was looking through my portfolio of images shot with my R5/R3 and these cameras had no problem capturing Herons, Swans, etc. Additionally, I've noticed that the Z8 struggles with subject detect for certain perched birds such as Goldfinches, Hawks, etc. where the AF point jumps around preferring the chest rather than the eye. Again, one can mitigate this by employing a spot or C1 focus, though it's not ideal. With other birds, it's just fine and again, as I review my portfolio of images, I am struck by how good the Z8 performed when I was shooting owls. With the thousands of images, nary a one was OOF. Then again, owls have "cat like" eyes so maybe there's a connection? Maybe, I should move into an arboreal Forrest and only shoot owls?

For BIF, the Z8 does ok, though it is rare that eye detect is active. Rather, it tends to focus on the body, wing, etc. That's ok if the bird is traveling laterally though I found that the R5/R3 were more likely to effectively employ eye detect. For diving birds, like pelicans it's fine though I've been absolutely flummoxed by osprey and eagle strikes. I feel like I'm beating a dead horse on this one - BTW, I don't know how the Z8 focuses on dead horses - though it seems as though with every strike, the camera loses AF capture the instant before the strike, through the strike, and it only regains AF a couple of frames later. This doesn't occur at distance though if the subject is that small in the frame, the sequences are more academic than useable. Rather it seems to occur when the subject is reasonably large (>1/4 of the frame), panning is consistent, and the bird is situated well in the frame. I've tried every AF mode with the exception of a custom with SD off with similar results. Again, I don't know if this is an algorithm or technical issue as it certainly isn't a problem with technique. I have plenty of comparable sequences shot with the R3/R5 which don't display this behavior. Interestingly, my R7 demonstrated AF challenges in those situations and would frequently lose AF capture at some point in the process, typically if there were background distractions.

My apologies, if these descriptions seem a bit pedantic, but they are what they are, and I've done everything imaginable with my Z8's and lenses to mitigate these challenges. I don't think the lenses or bodies are defective as they all behave similarly and what are the odds of buying isolated equipment which seems to function the same way when interchanged?

I'm headed to Florida and then Conowingo in the next few weeks and after assessing the results of those shoots, I'll have to do a gut check and determine whether it is time to switch and what that would look like. Money is an issue and liquidating all of my Nikon gear would probably finance one R5II, a 100-500, and maybe an EF 600 f/4. Not ideal.



Nov 13, 2024 at 09:28 AM
JustShootMe
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p.1 #11 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


Don't believe the hype, none of them are perfect. They all fail from time to time, they all get confused on certain backgrounds, they will all NOT pick up every single subject. In certain scenarios one is better than the other, maybe overall the Canon may be the stickiest, but I have no issues with the Nikon if I'm doing what I should be doing. If I'm to far away, it doesn't always pickup the eye as fast as it does when I'm in an ideal position. If there's to many distractions between the camera and subject it doesn't always immediately detect it, but a quick turn of the focus ring to help it, and problem solved. I have never shot with the A9iii, don't know if that is much better. I have shot with the R5ii, and A1 amongst others.


Nov 13, 2024 at 10:32 AM
groob
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p.1 #12 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


The differences are certainly going to be marginal. Armd has brought up the diving bird issue several times, but other people shooting the same subjects at the same locations don’t have those problems. I also don’t have an eyelash issue, even on my 50mm f/1.2. And I have no issue photographing landing/splashing ducks. I have never had a problem with a perched bird. My Z9 will grab focus on a sparrow sitting on a limb at 49 yards through vegetation. It’s ridiculously good.

The one thing I’ll agree with Armd on is long-necked birds. Auto area is a little finicky with them, but switching to 3D has worked perfectly for me over the past several months.



Nov 13, 2024 at 10:44 AM
Spectro
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p.1 #13 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


I would love to have had this discussion back in the D2 days. If it was overcast and a ski racer was coming at me wearing a primarily pink race suit the camera would hunt away due to lack of contrast even if they were filling 70% of the frame. That was a tech limitation of the gear 20 years ago and it was annoying but accepted.
This past weekend I covered two NHL games at ice level with an Z9 and missed focus a couple of times out of several thousand frames and I know it was the guy behind the gear that caused that.
Only you can decide if the financial hit and the limitations you will find with the other brand are worth it to you. It’s a big decision that will likely come with the next set of issues.


armd wrote:
It's interesting that you raise the AF topic because I am at the point of seriously considering liquidating my Nikon gear and moving back to Canon. While I really like the Z8 for airshows, vehicles, landscapes, and video, it simply doesn't AF that consistently for birds and people. The latter two constitute the majority of my work.

When shooting portraits, I find that I have to shoot 1/3rd insurance frames simply because the camera doesn't focus particularly well on the eye and often grabs the lash, cheek, eyebrow, etc. instead. Quite candidly, I don't know if this is an algorithm
...Show more



Nov 13, 2024 at 10:45 AM
JadedWriter
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p.1 #14 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


I have had my Z9 for years. I'm either keeping it when the Z9II comes out or trading it in, but it's a camera I have 0 regrets buying. The only thing that has saved my Z9 from further abuse buy me is me getting a GFX100S for studio and on location use. I still regularly use the thing. I just don't post that much stuff from it because I don't post a lot of my event work from work. Literally used it for work yesterday with my X-H2 doing hybrid work. Camera just worked. Why would I get rid of this system to get a Canon? Nikon will release something within the next two years and then be on par again with the newest Sony/Canon cameras.


Nov 13, 2024 at 10:55 AM
cohenfive
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p.1 #15 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


I know this is a lame topic, but partly I wanted to get more views on how people were happy or unhappy with current nikon af performance. I've only recently gone back to nikon again, and my wildlife season is just starting, so I have only used the z8 for wildlife a couple of times so far. I switched back because I had the opportunity to get a 600tc for a slightly less ridiculous price. That lens drove my move back to nikon as it has no competition in the market.

My guess is that if there are af issues they probably relate to the fact that the z9/8 af is now not current software. Tech moves quickly these days, and with increasing use of ai and just good old software development, my guess is that nikon eliminates whatever shortcomings they now have...even pretty limited. I do agree with the statements that all these cameras are incredibly good, and none of them are yet perfect. Thanks!



Nov 13, 2024 at 10:58 AM
RoamingScott
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p.1 #16 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


cohenfive wrote:
I know this is a lame topic, but partly I wanted to get more views on how people were happy or unhappy with current nikon af performance. I've only recently gone back to nikon again, and my wildlife season is just starting, so I have only used the z8 for wildlife a couple of times so far. I switched back because I had the opportunity to get a 600tc for a slightly less ridiculous price. That lens drove my move back to nikon as it has no competition in the market.

My guess is that if there are af issues
...Show more

I still don't get it. You say the Z8 is getting you the shots you want and you're happy with the AF, but still wringing your hands over it. THIS is the problem. JUST SHOOT!

You buy into the system that has the glass you want. Sounds like that's Nikon for you.



Nov 13, 2024 at 11:04 AM
cohenfive
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p.1 #17 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


I hear you, my only point being that I haven't used it for wildlife/birds all that much yet, so am happy to hear what others' experiences have been, both good and bad. But yes, I need to get out shooting more...and I will!!


Nov 13, 2024 at 11:08 AM
arbitrage
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p.1 #18 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


I think the only thing I would make a firm definitive statement on is for static birds (perched, floating, wading) the R5II (and I'd assume the R1) have significantly better subject/head/eye detect. I'm comparing this to Z8, Z9, A1 and A9III.

Once we start talking about BIF it becomes a lot harder to test and compare. My preference trends towards Sony and Canon over Nikon for BIF.

You'll be able to get a good idea for yourself once you start shooting more birds. You have the GOAT lens so unless you are finding some serious issues with the AF getting you the shots then I don't think you should worry too much about what Canon maybe can do a little bit better.



Nov 13, 2024 at 11:33 AM
groob
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p.1 #19 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?




arbitrage wrote:
I think the only thing I would make a firm definitive statement on is for static birds (perched, floating, wading) the R5II (and I'd assume the R1) have significantly better subject/head/eye detect. I'm comparing this to Z8, Z9, A1 and A9III.

Once we start talking about BIF it becomes a lot harder to test and compare. My preference trends towards Sony and Canon over Nikon for BIF.

You'll be able to get a good idea for yourself once you start shooting more birds. You have the GOAT lens so unless you are finding some serious issues with the AF getting you the
...Show more

I have no idea how a camera could be materially better at shooting perched birds than a Z9. I’m not sure I have a single out of focus photo of a perched bird with the Z9, or even a woodpecker moving all around a tree. And again, the Z9 will pick out a tiny bird on a stick in a busy woodland setting at ~40 yards. If you want more than that, I’d suggest changing your shooting style.



Nov 13, 2024 at 11:40 AM
armd
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p.1 #20 · Is Nikon AF (Z9/8) really that much worse?


cohenfive wrote:
I know this is a lame topic, but partly I wanted to get more views on how people were happy or unhappy with current nikon af performance. I've only recently gone back to nikon again, and my wildlife season is just starting, so I have only used the z8 for wildlife a couple of times so far. I switched back because I had the opportunity to get a 600tc for a slightly less ridiculous price. That lens drove my move back to nikon as it has no competition in the market.

My guess is that if there are af issues
...Show more

I'm with the other folks in that you need to use the system and determine its adequacy for yourself. Users tend to be biased and vocal based on their experiences, and I am no exception. You can parse the myriad of threads and find answers which will support your bias, though at the end of the day, whether you are satisfied with the system is the only valid determinant.

Having well over 45 years of experience, it is pretty amazing to witness how far the technology has developed. I would like to believe that I tend to try to referee fairly and if one reviews the thousands of posts over the years, you'll find I praise systems when they perform (like the 1dmkII, 1dmkIII, R5, R3, A9, A9II, etc.) and point out the deficiencies with other bodies (7d(II), R7, A7RIV, Z8, etc.). I recall the fierce debates with users of the 1dmkIII who experienced the focus box issues (others like me never experienced them) and those who refuted that the 7d(ii) had AF consistency issues (mine were awful).

Anyhow, I've had very mixed impressions with the Z8 as I've detailed, so take them for what they're worth. Others seem to think that the Z8 is perfect, and they've never experienced a single AF issue. Does lighting/conditions, individual equipment, technique, expectations, or a combination of all of these affect results more than any single factor? Who knows, and again you'll have to decide for yourself if the Nikon system is best for you. Without a doubt, I am completely enamored with the size, weight, price, and overall IQ of the PF lens line up and many Z lenses in general. If I could adapt them to any other system, I think you would see many more

Let me add one other thought after re-reading all of the favorable Nikon posts. They've all described their experiences with Z9's and not Z8's. Perhaps there is something there, there? Maybe, there is a difference in AF performance between the two bodies because of design and/or operating voltage?



Nov 13, 2024 at 11:45 AM
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