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Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review

  
 
rscheffler
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p.8 #1 · p.8 #1 · Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review


Fred Miranda wrote:
Infinity Resolution and Contrast: Voigtlander 50/2.2 Color-Skopar vs Leica 50/2 Summicron 'Rigid'


That's pretty impressive performance from both lenses. The VM for 'cheap lens' non ASPH, wide aperture across-frame consistency and the Rigid for stopped down across-frame sharpness that IMO is better than the VM at f/5.6. Rigid's weakness will likely be flare resistance and weaker contrast/saturation due to old coating technology.

Thinking about this, it would be interesting to see a Rigid reissue with modern coatings (and closer MFD). Or have I just described the current 50 Cron?

TBH when Cosina announced the 50/2.2 and the optical formula, I was very skeptical about their claim of 'modern' performance. Looks like I was wrong at least about wide aperture across-frame sharpness.

Fred Miranda wrote:
I was curious about how my Loxia 35/2 Biogon and Loxia 50/2 Planar E-mount lenses would perform on the Kolari-modded A7R II. The result is that they perform better off-axis on the Kolari-modified version compared to the standard A7R II. I've noticed similar improvements with other E-mount AF lenses I've tested, but this enhancement is specific to lenses that benefit from the "field curvature" change caused by the thinner cover glass.


The Loxia 35 & 50 were the first of the Loxia line and I wonder if Zeiss gave them a 'weak' optical tweaking from their ZM origins that didn't fully optimize them for the standard Sony sensor stack, rather just made them good enough to get out the door and raise early Sony adopter expectations while the other Loxia lenses were being developed from scratch.



Jul 26, 2024 at 07:59 PM
hmzimelka
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p.8 #2 · p.8 #2 · Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review


bjhurley wrote:
I'm thinking about this too. I have a dual-range Summicron made in 1958; it is of course a classic lens and beautifully made, but it's heavy and a bit bulky so I rarely shoot with it. A small, light, flare-resistant alternative would see a lot more use; for me it's a choice between the VM 50/1.5 and this new 50/2.2.


I have the Summicron-M 50mm V and its a fantastic lens, but there are a couple things I don't like about it that I know the Skopar will do better... but I doubt there will ever be a lens from Voigtlander than is as distortion free and 52mm in focal length like the Summicron.

I never bonded with the Nokton 50mm f/1.5 ASPH. Too much Lo CA for my liking, and the f/1.5 aperture gave virtually no advantage over my Planar and Summicron other than a very small centre bright spot and lots of vignetting. It does however render very uniquely, and it would be a great choice for B&W work. In hindsight, I would have preferred selling the Planar over the Nokton, but I don't miss it.



Jul 27, 2024 at 12:50 AM
hanay78
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p.8 #3 · p.8 #3 · Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review


Dear @mskad2, @Fred_Miranda, @ MAubrey and philip_pj@ thanks for your answers related to thin filter conversion.

I am asking because I did test thin filter conversion with @Bastiak with Voigts LTM 21/f4 35/f2.5 and Elmarit 28/2.8 iii and sincerely, my impression was that the M10 camera was, at f8, largely superior in details to the Sony converted one, in spite of the Leica being only 24 megapixels.

Then I read the excellent article of @Bastiak, https://phillipreeve.net/blog/different-filter-stacks-and-what-they-mean-for-us-sony-e-nikon-z-leica-m-kolari-ut/ where one may obtain different consequences, albeit, with other lenses. I also find very interesting the results got with the Z6.

I like a lot this results of Fred, https://phillipreeve.net/blog/different-filter-stacks-and-what-they-mean-for-us-sony-e-nikon-z-leica-m-kolari-ut/ And, those are the reason why I cannot understand why The Cron 50 IV or V are praised as the lenses which all others compare.

In spite of a nice rendering, the ghosting in Cron is terrible, especially when compared with the long available planar 50.



Jul 27, 2024 at 08:15 AM
MAubrey
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p.8 #4 · p.8 #4 · Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review


hanay78 wrote:
Dear @mskad2@, @Fred_Miranda, @ MAubrey and philip_pj@@ thanks for your answers related to thin filter conversion.

I am asking because I did test thin filter conversion with @Bastiak with Voigts LTM 21/f4 35/f2.5 and Elmarit 28/2.8 iii and sincerely, my impression was that the M10 camera was, at f8, largely superior in details to the Sony converted one, in spite of the Leica being only 24 megapixels.

Then I read the excellent article of @Bastiak, https://phillipreeve.net/blog/different-filter-stacks-and-what-they-mean-for-us-sony-e-nikon-z-leica-m-kolari-ut/ where one may obtain different consequences, albeit, with other lenses. I also find very interesting the results got with the Z6.

I like a lot this
...Show more

One of the lessons that you need to take away from all these articles is that different lenses are impacted by the sensor stack to different degrees. One of the reasons that I have the NKIR conversion is because it's even thinner than the Kolari one (the glued cover glass on the A7rII is also removed). I wouldn't be surprised if some lenses still show improvement on a super fine grain/high res film without any sensor glass at all. That definitely seems to be the case with my Contax G 21mm f/2.8, which still looks weaker (without an additional PCX filter) than it does on my Contax G2 and a fine grain film like Ilford Pan F.

Personally, I've avoided a digital M camera because I can't afford the higher MP versions and the 24MP M10 has so such dramatic and color cast issues on one side of the frame. In the meantime, I'm happy with my FP and A7rII.



Jul 27, 2024 at 09:17 AM
mapgraphs
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p.8 #5 · p.8 #5 · Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review


hanay78 wrote:
...
Then I read the excellent article of @Bastiak, https://phillipreeve.net/blog/different-filter-stacks-and-what-they-mean-for-us-sony-e-nikon-z-leica-m-kolari-ut/ where one may obtain different consequences, albeit, with other lenses. I also find very interesting the results got with the Z6.
...


Both Leica and Nikon have designed sensor arrays to support legacy manual focus lenses, at least to a certain degree. Back in December 2018 I tried the VM 40mm Nokton on a then new Z7. Still there. Never looked back...




Jul 27, 2024 at 09:22 AM
Malabito
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p.8 #6 · p.8 #6 · Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review




MAubrey wrote:
One of the lessons that you need to take away from all these articles is that different lenses are impacted by the sensor stack to different degrees. One of the reasons that I have the NKIR conversion is because it's even thinner than the Kolari one (the glued cover glass on the A7rII is also removed). I wouldn't be surprised if some lenses still show improvement on a super fine grain/high res film without any sensor glass at all. That definitely seems to be the case with my Contax G 21mm f/2.8, which still looks weaker (without an additional PCX
...Show more

M10 has dramatic color cast issues? Had mine for 5 years and never had any color cast issues... perhaps you refer to using some specific lenses? But the issue is not the m10, are the lenses.



Jul 27, 2024 at 09:44 AM
BrandonSi
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p.8 #7 · p.8 #7 · Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review


Malabito wrote:
M10 has dramatic color cast issues? Had mine for 5 years and never had any color cast issues... perhaps you refer to using some specific lenses? But the issue is not the m10, are the lenses.


I assume he means with his G 21mm. Often wide-angle lenses (and in particular, adapted or 3rd party without built-in corrections) will exhibit color shift at the edges of the frame.



Jul 27, 2024 at 10:06 AM
MAubrey
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p.8 #8 · p.8 #8 · Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review


Malabito wrote:
M10 has dramatic color cast issues? Had mine for 5 years and never had any color cast issues... perhaps you refer to using some specific lenses? But the issue is not the m10, are the lenses.

With lots of non-distagon ultrawides.

This is from Bastian's article that was linked to above with the CV15III:






Bastian writes:
To regular readers these results won’t be much of a surprise: the Leica M10 shows the infamous “italian flag” vignetting with an asymmetrical green color cast on the left and magenta one on the right. This is apparently caused by the way the micro lenses are applied on the sensor. The older digital M cameras (M9, 240, 262) perform even worse in this regard, as does the M10r. The M11 on the other hand performs similar to the other cameras depicted here, as it also makes use of a (probably Sony) BSI sensor.



Jul 27, 2024 at 10:22 AM
Malabito
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p.8 #9 · p.8 #9 · Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review




MAubrey wrote:
With lots of non-distagon ultrawides.

This is from Bastian's article that was linked to above with the CV15III:
https://phillipreeve.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/CC_VM15mm_4.5_M10.jpg



Thanks, yep, I never went that wide. The widest I had was the Skopar 21mm f/3.5, and it worked great, as did the 24mm Elmar and the rest of my other lenses I had, but all were from 21mm and on.



Jul 27, 2024 at 12:41 PM
BrandonSi
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p.8 #10 · p.8 #10 · Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review


This 50/2.2 is amazing. I took a shot on it after renting the CV 50/2 APO, and after having the 50/2.2 for ~3 hours I can already tell I'm keeping it and no longer planning on ordering the 50 APO. Really, really happy with this little guy.

And to follow up on Jimmy Chang's video, my hood unscrewed with barely any effort at all.



Jul 27, 2024 at 02:27 PM
 


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BrandonSi
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p.8 #11 · p.8 #11 · Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review


Fred Miranda wrote:
The best in-camera profile I've found so far is the "Summicron 1:2/50 Leitz." It greatly minimizes the vignetting of the CV 50/2.2.
Here are two samples showing this lens detection:


What is this coded as, Fred, from a 6-bit perspective? I see that in your EXIF, but doesn't align with any option in the 6-bit list or the camera menu on my m11-p.

11817 / 010111 ?




Jul 27, 2024 at 02:43 PM
rscheffler
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p.8 #12 · p.8 #12 · Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review


MAubrey wrote:
Personally, I've avoided a digital M camera because I can't afford the higher MP versions and the 24MP M10 has so such dramatic and color cast issues on one side of the frame. In the meantime, I'm happy with my FP and A7rII.


Malabito wrote:
M10 has dramatic color cast issues? Had mine for 5 years and never had any color cast issues... perhaps you refer to using some specific lenses? But the issue is not the m10, are the lenses.


MAubrey wrote:
With lots of non-distagon ultrawides.

This is from Bastian's article that was linked to above with the CV15III:
https://phillipreeve.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/CC_VM15mm_4.5_M10.jpg


Just a friendly note to clarify that it's not the 15/4.5 vIII in Bastian's post; it's the previous VM version that was originally released in LTM in the early 2000s and was not digital-optimized. I had that version in M-mount back around 2011 and indeed it presented the 'Italian flag' issue on the M9 and M240. The current version, which I have since 2015, works fine on the M240.

The blanket statement that the "M10 has so such dramatic and color cast issues on one side of the frame" could have been qualified in the same post with "lots of non-distagon ultrawides" lest someone less familiar with the camera takes the statement at face value and assumes incorrectly it's a problem with all lenses.



Jul 27, 2024 at 02:52 PM
MAubrey
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p.8 #13 · p.8 #13 · Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review


rscheffler wrote:

Just a friendly note to clarify that it's not the 15/4.5 vIII in Bastian's post; it's the previous VM version that was originally released in LTM in the early 2000s and was not digital-optimized. I had that version in M-mount back around 2011 and indeed it presented the 'Italian flag' issue on the M9 and M240. The current version, which I have since 2015, works fine on the M240.

The blanket statement that the "M10 has so such dramatic and color cast issues on one side of the frame" could have been qualified in the same post with "lots of
...Show more
Always happy to be corrected! Thank you.



Jul 27, 2024 at 04:11 PM
hanay78
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p.8 #14 · p.8 #14 · Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review


I have the 15mm ltm for its compactness. In sony, if I remember correctly it has a significant blue cast. I correct this in rawtherapee with one click thanks to the flat field correction.

To get the correction it is very simple. I shoot though a flat latex hand glove to the sky, at different apertures. It works quite well in my experience and vignetting and cast go away. Shooting at ISO 100 i do not get the impression that the corners get significantly more noisy, but YMMV.

the 15mm I will keep, the 21 and 35 LTMs I believe not


rscheffler wrote:

Just a friendly note to clarify that it's not the 15/4.5 vIII in Bastian's post; it's the previous VM version that was originally released in LTM in the early 2000s and was not digital-optimized. I had that version in M-mount back around 2011 and indeed it presented the 'Italian flag' issue on the M9 and M240. The current version, which I have since 2015, works fine on the M240.

The blanket statement that the "M10 has so such dramatic and color cast issues on one side of the frame" could have been qualified in the same post with "lots of
...Show more




Jul 27, 2024 at 04:44 PM
rscheffler
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p.8 #15 · p.8 #15 · Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review


The blue cast is uneven IR transmission/absorption by the cover glass due to the longer path oblique peripheral light rays take through the glass than on-axis rays, resulting in higher IR absorption/blocking towards the periphery and the resulting blue/cyan cast. Or so I understand. This is a separate phenomena to the 'Italian flag' problem caused by how light rays interact with the pixel wells (and maybe microlenses), particularly non-BSI sensors.


Jul 27, 2024 at 11:50 PM
Malabito
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p.8 #16 · p.8 #16 · Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review



MAubrey wrote:
Always happy to be corrected! Thank you.


The issue is with lenses designed for film, the issue is not the camera. Saying is the camera is misleading and not true.

If that image is from 15mmv2 it's understandable for it to have such a strong cast, it's not a camera issue is due to the lens design. I had that same lens v2 and it had color cast in all mirrorles I tried it with, sony and leicas m240 and m10. I sold it due to that, the 15mmv3, I tried in a store with the m10 and coudnt see any cast as the one you are showing above.




Jul 28, 2024 at 05:51 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.8 #17 · p.8 #17 · Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review


philip_pj wrote:
From what is seen thus far, this tiny lens combines character with surprisingly high resolution and does it at 135 grams. With all these boxes ticked, it looks like a strong contender for best new all round 50mm.

A VM 50/2 APO comparison would be illuminating, that one's great performance is offset by a longer MFD (0.7m vs 0.5m), twice the weight (288g vs 135g) and length (53mm vs 30mm). (People will complain about the 50/2.2 vignette pattern, however.)


I agree with everything you mentioned, Philip. Although the 50/2.2 Color-Skopar offers high performance, the VM 50/2 APO stands out with its exceptional quality and is still on another level. I’ll be comparing it to the upcoming 50mm f/3.5 APO-Lanthar soon.

Interestingly, even though the 50/2.2 Color-Skopar has significant vignetting, its optical vignetting is actually less than that of the 50/2 APO-Lanthar. As a result, you’ll probably notice more rounded specular highlights off-axis with the Color-Skopar.



Jul 28, 2024 at 09:02 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.8 #18 · p.8 #18 · Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review


rscheffler wrote:
That's pretty impressive performance from both lenses. The VM for 'cheap lens' non ASPH, wide aperture across-frame consistency and the Rigid for stopped down across-frame sharpness that IMO is better than the VM at f/5.6. Rigid's weakness will likely be flare resistance and weaker contrast/saturation due to old coating technology.

Thinking about this, it would be interesting to see a Rigid reissue with modern coatings (and closer MFD). Or have I just described the current 50 Cron?

TBH when Cosina announced the 50/2.2 and the optical formula, I was very skeptical about their claim of 'modern' performance. Looks like I was
...Show more

I was really impressed by both lenses for the reasons you mentioned. I knew the Rigid was ahead of its time, especially when stopped down a bit. The Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar, with its optical design combining Sonnar and Planar concepts, seems to offer the best of both worlds. While there is some visible structure in the rendering (which I personally appreciate), it also delivers high performance with minimal spherical aberration even wide open.


The Loxia 35 & 50 were the first of the Loxia line and I wonder if Zeiss gave them a 'weak' optical tweaking from their ZM origins that didn't fully optimize them for the standard Sony sensor stack, rather just made them good enough to get out the door and raise early Sony adopter expectations while the other Loxia lenses were being developed from scratch.


Indeed. I always assumed that Zeiss adjusted the ZM optical formula to better accommodate Sony’s thicker sensor stack. While this might have been done to some extent, I was pleasantly surprised to find that both lenses perform better on the A7R II UT compared to the vanilla version. Likely won't be the case with their 21/25mm Loxia lenses.




Jul 28, 2024 at 09:08 AM
philip_pj
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p.8 #19 · p.8 #19 · Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review


It's nearly all good news with the 50/2.2 so far. It will be interesting to see how the Leica community responds to this - what looks like - groundbreaking release. We'll soon see, and thanks for the offer to see it against the 50/2 APO, by aperture and part of the frame.


Jul 28, 2024 at 04:19 PM
freaklikeme
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p.8 #20 · p.8 #20 · Voigtlander 50mm f/2.2 Color-Skopar Review


hanay78 wrote:
Dear @mskad2@, @Fred_Miranda, @ MAubrey and philip_pj thanks for your answers related to thin filter conversion.

I am asking because I did test thin filter conversion with @Bastiak with Voigts LTM 21/f4 35/f2.5 and Elmarit 28/2.8 iii and sincerely, my impression was that the M10 camera was, at f8, largely superior in details to the Sony converted one, in spite of the Leica being only 24 megapixels.

Then I read the excellent article of @Bastiak, https://phillipreeve.net/blog/different-filter-stacks-and-what-they-mean-for-us-sony-e-nikon-z-leica-m-kolari-ut/ where one may obtain different consequences, albeit, with other lenses. I also find very interesting the results got with the Z6.

I like a lot this
...Show more

The closest I've come to film-like performance in digital is an rII with everything, including the CFA, stripped off. All my Nikon and Leica R lenses look the same as they do on the F100 or R9, respectively, when loaded with Tri-X. I wasn't sure how long the sensor would last without any coverglass, but it's been almost four years now and it's still going strong. Those silicon wafers are tougher than I thought.

I don't know that anyone's holding up any of the Cron 50s as state-of-the-art, high objective performers. If you love one, odds are you love it just as much for it's flawed wide-open performance as you do it's solid performance stopped down. The 1976 redesign first launched in the R line and moved to the the M in 1979, if I remember correctly, helped define the "Leica look" for an entire generation, which has kept it in production, with it's undercorrected SA giving everything a soft central glow surrounded by some heavy vignetting. Objectively, it's not even the best double gauss 50/2 of its age. Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Oly, and Minolta all had slightly higher resolution offerings that were progressively less dependent on cemented pairs in their designs. Minolta's six-in-six 1981 MD 50/2, that was never expensive to begin with and now regularly sells for between $15-30, blows the last Cron away in both overall resolution and consistency in performance regardless of focus distance, but it lacks any distinct characteristics that make it a stand-out. The Cron, for better or worse, depending on your perspective, is distinct.

Flare resistance has never been a hallmark of the design at that age, though. The modern ZM Planar has the advantage of being redesigned and manufactured in this century.



Jul 28, 2024 at 04:55 PM
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