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Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

ottokbre
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p.1 #1 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

I had a Leica employee give me the classic line "The camera is nice but it's just a box. You buy Leica for the lenses!" (this was in response to seeing a CV 28/2.8 Aspherical Skopar on my camera). It was a playful but also "consider dropping a bunch of cash here!" statement. I know this in part because she directed me to a used but legendary Leica lens they had in the cabinet, not like, a 35/1.4 FLE Summilux.

So without starting a flame-war: what does Leica do better these days?

Is there a lens that you just HAD to have for any objective reason?

Full disclosure: I think it's totally good and fine to see Leica glass as collectable, having character, renders in a special way, or just a great long term investment. If I could choose both hobbies I would be a watch collector too. But my future surplus cash (lol) would probably go to collectable glass (what is it about small machined metal things with circles?)

Honestly I shoot Leica for reasons besides the optics. It's the RF body. I don't dwell on DOF (the VF gets out of my way), I love manual control (the body gets out of my way) and it's nearly the smallest FF camera when you include the lenses (I shoot tiny 2.8 lenses),

Jun 17, 2024 at 11:38 AM

Desmolicious
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p.1 #2 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

Leica lenses are only a long term investment if:

1. they are a rare, limited edition
2. or you bought them used so the initial buyer took the depreciation hit.

The biggest difference with my Leica lenses that I have noticed versus CV, ZM etc is they maintain a consistent and beautiful ageless design language. Haptically they are superb - they always look and feel great on camera. And that is really nice as it makes you want to go out and shoot more. Which is how you get great pics!

Optically CV has caught up and in most instances I can't tell any difference between equivalent lenses.

Jun 17, 2024 at 11:43 AM

nehemiahphoto
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p.1 #3 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

At this point, the draw of Leica lenses is really the rendering, specifically the color/contrast, which I think is preferable to most Zeiss or CV at the same FL. I like their older glass, that has way more character and I can't get that draws the same/similar enough. They�re new stuff, I don't find that distinct or technically better enough to justify the price.

For instance, I enjoyed the 35 Lux FLE to the ZM 35/1.4 (large, stiff focusing ring) or CV 35/1.5 (lack of punch, just kind of meh photos IMO). Having said that, Leica's often have worse flare resistance. The CV 28/2 ASPH and Leica 28/2 ASPH v2, pretty much draw the exact same, though I again the images from the Leica are nicer to me given color and contrast. Same with the CV 50/1.2 versus the 50/1.4 Lux. Very similar draws, though the Lux has better CA correction and micro-contrast and short distance performance, while the CV has better flare resistance and an extra half-stop.

To me it's mostly if a) you can spend that extra dough for a color/contrast preference b) there's for sure some dorky Leica snotty culture stuff going on.

If I wasn't budget conscious like many Leica shooters, I'd probably own 35 Lux ASPH, 50 Lux ASPH and 28/2 ASPH. But instead I own a 50/1 Noct, 35 Lux pre-asph, and if I had more cash allocated, I'd pick up an 80 Lux again. But not their newer stuff.

Edited on Jun 17, 2024 at 06:19 PM · View previous versions

Jun 17, 2024 at 11:58 AM

jeffersoncasey
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p.1 #4 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

I was doing my own researches on this and apparently, back in the film days (still is today) Leica lenses will have more saturations and better tonality. On digital the differences seems to get lost, understandable because on film the lights hit the film directly, than going through any filters and processing.

For example in the LLL thread there's a comparison between LLL 50/1.2 vs the original 50/1.2 noctilux. Straight out of camera with identical white balance setting (which you can't change on film), the Leica obviously produce richer and better tonality and colors where the LLL already losing out getting a good white balance. But as you know, you can match the white balance so the differences became less noticeable.

EDIT: Typo

Edited on Jun 18, 2024 at 05:35 AM · View previous versions

Jun 17, 2024 at 12:04 PM

ottokbre
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p.1 #5 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

Desmolicious wrote:
Optically CV has caught up and in most instances I can't tell any difference between equivalent lenses.

If I am being charitable I think some long time Leica shooters haven't tried newer CV lenses.

Jun 17, 2024 at 12:36 PM

johnvanr
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p.1 #6 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

In the film days, I compared Leica vs Contax G and Nikon and I could see a distinct difference in rendering between Leica/Contax vs Nikon, but hardly any difference between Leica vs Contax.

I�m not a Photoshop/LR expert or heavy user, but I do think digital has made the differences between brands easier to overcome. Thus, optically, I doubt Leica in terms of the end result makes much of a difference. Straight out of camera, it probably can, but so can other much cheaper brands.

Personally, for my M11 I have one Leica lens (if I don�t count an old 5cm) and the rest are VL and Zeiss. Plus the lens on my Q2M.

Jun 17, 2024 at 12:36 PM

rscheffler
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p.1 #7 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

ottokbre wrote:
So without starting a flame-war: what does Leica do better these days?

Probably pushing the envelope by combining high performance with small size, such as the recent 35 Cron APO-M, or the 50 Cron APO ~10 years ago. Leica's customer base is less price sensitive, therefore cost constraints are less likely to affect their lens designs. Also the APO Summicron-SL primes, in respect to combining very high optical performance with little aesthetic tradeoff (IOW, modern, relatively character-less rendering).

But as suggested, there's likely very little difference in respect to optical performance across most of the higher-tier brands now. Cosina certainly has upped their game and many of their lenses are technically as good, or better. They've demonstrated with the 50/1.0 that if cost constraints are less of a factor, they can combine speed, compactness and high image quality as well as Leica. As Huss suggested though, they haven't yet matched Leica's design and ergonomics in respect to how well their lenses integrate with the Leica M system.

Coincidentally I just did a bokeh comparison of the Canon RF 28-70/2 against Canon's new RF 24-105/2.8, their cheap-o RF 50/1.8, their EF 85/1.4 and much of my M/LTM collection of lenses, including 7A 50/1.1, 50 Lux ASPH, 50/1.5 Summarit, 50/1.5 Zeiss Opton Sonnar, 50/1.4 Canon LTM, 50/1.4 Nikkor LTM, 50 Cron Rigid, ZM 50/2, Nikkor 105/2.5, 90 Cron AA, VM 35/1.7, LLL 35/2, Canon 35/2 LTM, 28 Lux and VM 28/2 v2. If you primarily value good sharpness and clean rendering, the Canon zooms are actually really good (and have almost no wide open bokeh color fringing). The various M and LTM primes really aren't technically demonstrably better, but each has certain bokeh/rendering qualities that might have subjective appeal.

Ultimately I think it boils down to your statement about size, form factor, viewfinder experience and how this all comes together very pleasingly with the M system. In that respect I very much enjoy my M and the compactness and high performance of the lenses I have for the system. My Canon system is a different user experience (some better, some worse than Leica) and for me a different tool to achieve the desired results. What isn't any longer a consideration for me is technical image quality. They're all good.

Jun 17, 2024 at 01:07 PM

BastianK
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p.1 #8 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

ottokbre wrote:
what does Leica do better these days?

Marketing and sustaining their brand image.
And heritage, I forgot about heritage.

Only a strong brand allows you to overcharge customers to that degree.

Jun 17, 2024 at 01:46 PM

freaklikeme
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p.1 #9 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

Giant, relatively slow but ultra-high performing mirrorless primes.

Jun 17, 2024 at 02:13 PM

saxguy
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p.1 #10 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

I'm an SL shooter. Never tried a rangefinder, as I'm more of a shallow depth of field candid shooter and I need the AF. My previous systems were Sony (a7r iii, a7r iv, a9ii, a1, RX1R ii) and Canon (R5). I used all G-Master glass and had the Canon 28-70 f2 and the Canon 50 1.2.

My Leica kit is the APO-Summicron-SL lenses (21, 35, 50, 75) and the 50mm Summilux-SL. I have consistently had more people ask me what gear I use when they see images made by the SL with Leica lenses. I have also tried Sigma lenses with the SL and the images are great, but the Leica lenses just have something "more" to them.

FWIW, the colors on my SL are better than what I achieved with my Sony cameras (although I heard they have gotten better with newer models). So color science and lens image rendering would be my answer for what Leica does better.

There is one camera that I would consider outside of the Leica ecosystem, though, if it were to be released. If Sony comes out with a replacement for the RX1R ii I would grab it in a second. Smaller than the Q series (I don't like 28mm) and, if they follow the old formula, a 35mm fixed F2 lens.

Jun 17, 2024 at 04:21 PM

nehemiahphoto
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p.1 #11 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

freaklikeme wrote:
Giant, relatively slow but ultra-high performing mirrorless primes.

Barf

Jun 17, 2024 at 04:49 PM

flash
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p.1 #12 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

When Leica released the SL3 they basically said, *IQ in 24x36mm has peaked. We�re concentrating on UI and user experience*. The nice woman at the Leica store was doing her job but someone selling Canon or Sigma could use the same line to get you to that lens cabinet.

A lot of people think M when they hear Leica. Really you�re not compromising with CV lenses. They used to be the good but cheaper alternative. That�s now the Chinese lenses and CV are tier one glass. The head of Cosina is a passionate lens maker. It was always going to happen. I don�t think there�s any doubt that the modern Leica glass has also raised the bar for CV to jump over. Would we have a CV50APO without the Leica version? I�m not so sure. The new M Leica lenses and high resolution cameras have pushed the IQ higher and CV have followed, fast. They�ve also led the way in *vintage* lenses and we see Leica also releasing a few of those now. I think Leica has a more consistent design language and colour is more even between lenses. But optically? It�s like two manufacturers pushing each other now.

The SL APO Summicrons are the best set of matched primes ever made. Other brands make lenses just as good. But not a set like this. It�s a cine lens approach to still photography glass. They�re also the only manufacturer making a top end 28mm with AF. But let�s face it. Mostly that extra 5% gets lost with sloppy technique and better lenses don�t make better photos. We shoot out M11�s and SL3�s with APO lenses just to put them on Instagram�.

So, personally it comes down to, you buy a Leica lens because you want to experience a Leica lens or seven. It�s fabulous that the 35 Summilux and 75 Summicron feel exactly the same to use. It�s awesome that the 24-90 is one of the best standard zooms ever made. But really it�s because you want the badge. And that�s OK.

Mind you I think every photographer deserves to try an SL APO Summicron for a bit.

Gordon

Jun 17, 2024 at 04:55 PM

SlowDriver
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p.1 #13 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

flash wrote:
It�s awesome that the 24-90 is one of the best standard zooms ever made.

Yes, it is, but better than the Canon RF 28-70mm (or the Hasselblad 35-75mm)? And the Canon is half of the price...

Jun 17, 2024 at 06:16 PM

RustyBug
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p.1 #14 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

Sticking to the OP's title ... i.e. Optics ... I think the thing that Leica does better these days is the exact same thing Leica has been doing for a very long time.

To me, there are two things that call to me about their optics.

1) Whenever I compare a given Leica optic to an alternative lens, it seems like the same focal length / aperture combination in the alternatives are either A) physically larger or B) vignette more or C) have more distortion, CA, or

The point being the "combination" of attributes in how Leica approaches their "pick your poisons", to achieve the level of optic in the package they bring to the table, it seems like they still bring a Bang / Size ratio that others don't.

Which, btw with the larger SL series lenses, they are basically achieving medium format IQ in a "large FF", so, again there seems to be an economy of quality for given size, sweet spot in how they pull off what they do.

2). The transitions between zones seem to retain the same consistency throughout their glass. I know that there was a time I was "all about" Zeiss lenses for their "3D-ish" pop. And Leica seems to have a "slightly smoother" approach to that transition, so it presents depth, but not as "cutout".

That's not to say that either are "better" than what others might prefer. But, those are the two things that I think Leica does in their optics that are the standout aspect of Leica optics.

Color consistency and quality of transmission (i.e. deep crop pixels) hold up really well, too. The first time I realized that I could crop 300% with my little 28/2.8 Elmarit, whereas I was only looking at 100% - 200% deep crops on my Canon glass ... okay, something is different here. I can't explain it, but I figure it is somehow in the formulation of their glass that provides for superb transmission.

Now, that said ... yup, CV and Sigma have raised the bar in their game. But, when we go back to the size game, we see that all is not ceteris paribus. For some, that won't make a hill of beans to them. But, when it comes to the question of what Leica does better these days ... the IQ they get out of their chosen size ... I don't see anyone bringing something BOTH smaller and better to the market to trump the bang / size ratio that Leica brings.

IQ
Size
$$$

Pick two. Leica costs more, but I think they have the IQ / Size thing down in a way that is better than most. Others will dissent.

Oh, and they often bring that level of IQ, leading to market first, and then the others try to play catch up (might be years later) or devise a variant response.

. So, yeah, others are close in a lot of regard, but depending on how you look at things ... that's where I see Leica being Leica in a Leica kind of way, at what they do best.

YMMV

Jun 17, 2024 at 07:53 PM

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p.1 #15 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

The �you buy a Leica for the lenses� argument is mildly funny because Leica began stressing high performance optics after SLRs displaced rangefinders as the most common type of camera used by professionals. The move was an attempt to stay relevant and justify the increasing cost in the 80�s after the fiasco with the high priced M5. Saying that cameras are merely �a light tight box� doesn�t give enough credit to the unique strengths of rangefinder cameras.

What Leica is doing that�s best for me is they�re still making rangefinders (especially film cameras) and keeping it simple (as much as possible) on the digital interface side of things.

Jun 17, 2024 at 10:41 PM

1bwana1
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p.1 #16 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

For me the Leica shooting form factor and every day carry experience is the best available.

Optically the lenses are excellent. So are my CV lenses. Haptics are much better on my Leica lenses however. I find the inconsistent design and ergonomics of the CV lenses a bit irritating to be honest.

Sensor wise the Leica cameras are at the top level. But they are matched in other systems. However if you are a monochrome photographer Leica is ahead by a mile.

In my experience there is no valid competition for the M series, or the Q series experience. Those are what Leica dies best. I have tried to like the SL series but cannot. Big, ugly, and low performance in comparison to other choices in the industry.

Jun 17, 2024 at 11:53 PM

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p.1 #17 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

'Would we have a CV50APO without the Leica version?' Gordon, the E-mount vsn predates the VM vsn by two years - 2019 vs 2021. It's a little better too. I like them all, these high end optics, and want more.

Steve, Cosina are hopeless romantics, so each lens gets its own niche with scant regard for family look and feel. They moved effortlessly from the century old Heliar 50/3.5 design to the Otus 100/1.4, very impressive.

Jun 18, 2024 at 12:44 AM

tzhang4284
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p.1 #18 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

I was originally pretty skeptical of Leica M lenses as someone who really cared about image quality and yes sharpness. However, I got tired of Sony and eventually ended up at Leica M lenses as the best option available although manual focus. For me, I've found the APO line of Leica M lenses to be excellent in overall image quality while being small in size and bought a few of them, definitely not cheap. I find that they're all generally very sharp for their size and the color rendition is what differentiates them from other lenses. Vignetting and distortion are also generally non-issues. There's a level of clarity to the images that I find amazing to look at on my computer.

I did try quite a few Voiglander lenses as an alternative but I found I never liked their color rendition and excessive vignetting in many cases even though the lenses themselves were quite sharp. I'm sure many Lightroom gurus will disagree but the photos I took with Leica M lenses usually look pretty good to me without much work. There's plenty of sharp camera lenses out there that are better in value but I think for the image quality, size, handling, and aesthetic, Leica M lenses are worth the premium.

Jun 18, 2024 at 03:08 AM

flash
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p.1 #19 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

philip_pj wrote:
'Would we have a CV50APO without the Leica version?' Gordon, the E-mount vsn predates the VM vsn by two years - 2019 vs 2021. It's a little better too. I like them all, these high end optics, and want more.

Steve, Cosina are hopeless romantics, so each lens gets its own niche with scant regard for family look and feel. They moved effortlessly from the century old Heliar 50/3.5 design to the Otus 100/1.4, very impressive.

The Leica M50 APO is 2012. I�m just thinking that CV saw the Leica and it laid the way for other small APO lenses to come from the likes of CV.

Gordon

Jun 18, 2024 at 04:23 AM

markhout
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p.1 #20 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

tzhang4284 wrote:
I was originally pretty skeptical of Leica M lenses as someone who really cared about image quality and yes sharpness.

...

There's plenty of sharp camera lenses out there that are better in value but I think for the image quality, size, handling, and aesthetic, Leica M lenses are worth the premium.

I agree with this. I did 800 images over the weekend with the Distagon 35mm 1.4 ZM and the micro contrast of that lens just hurts. Significant negative clarity in LR helps a bit, but 'bite' is not what I am after. My Leica lenses are much more genteel yet sharp, for example the 50mm 2.8 Elmar-M, or the 21mm SEM.

Jun 18, 2024 at 05:13 AM

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