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Optics: What does Leica do better these days?

  
 
RustyBug
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p.2 #1 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?


tzhang4284 wrote:

There's a level of clarity to the images that I find amazing to look at on my computer.

There's plenty of sharp camera lenses out there ... I think for the image quality, size, handling, and aesthetic, Leica M lenses are worth the premium.


This ^.

That "clarity" thing, the acuteness that Leica optics bring (scopes, binoculars, optometrist equipment, etc.) ... there's something they know that they haven't shared with the rest of the world. Others keep getting sharper and sharper, closer and closer, but Leica has known something about optics for a very long time that differentiates their optics. In my reading, they speak much about the laborious calculations of the geometry, and how computers have improved upon this. But, I can't help but wonder about the chemistry / process they use in making their glass. Imo, (no factual basis to reference) they've got a "secret sauce" in their glass making process, that pairs well with their geometric optical expertise ... culminating in their ethos of what they expect the experience to provide.

Granted, not all folks will realize or care about it, but ... imo, THIS is what they do BEST, when you ask about what Leica optics do better.

Hasselblad glass ain't too shabby, either ... but, it's a bit larger, too.
Jun 18, 2024 at 06:15 AM
bjhurley
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p.2 #2 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?


jeffersoncasey wrote:
I was doing my own researches on this and apparently, back in the film days (still is today) Leica lenses will have more saturations and better tonality. On digital the differences seems to get lost, understandable because on film the lights hit the film directly, than going through any filters and processing.


I actually think it's the opposite: I see stronger differences among my lenses on digital than I see on film. I use many of my lenses (Leica, Voigtländer, Minolta, Canon, Zeiss, Nikon) on film and digital; on film they tend to look more similar to each other than they do on digital, especially if you're shooting color film where the film itself has the strongest influence on colors; on digital I see much more striking differences in color output across lenses. On B&W film the differences across lenses are more apparent in terms of contrast and sharpness, as well as the overall draw, rendering, or whatever you want to call it.

I have four Leica lenses but they are the least used of all my lenses, probably because they are not the Leica lenses people lust after but rather the more utilitarian documentary-style slower lenses (35/2.8 Summaron, 50/2 dual-range Summicron, 90/2.8 Elmarit, 90/4 Elmar LTM). Of those I enjoy the dual-range Summicron and the 90/4 Elmar the most.
Jun 18, 2024 at 06:33 AM
retrofocus
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p.2 #3 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?


ottokbre wrote:
So without starting a flame-war: what does Leica do better these days?

To keep their business profitability up by marketing Leica as luxury and collector brand. Not good for the regular consumer of Leica products like me due to enormous price hikes, but I admit it keeps Leica Camera afloat.


Is there a lens that you just HAD to have for any objective reason?

Simple answer: no.




Jun 18, 2024 at 07:24 AM
retrofocus
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p.2 #4 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?


RustyBug wrote:
But, I can't help but wonder about the chemistry / process they use in making their glass. Imo, (no factual basis to reference) they've got a "secret sauce" in their glass making process, that pairs well with their geometric optical expertise ... culminating in their ethos of what they expect the experience to provide.



Leica uses Schott glass. Schott is doing all the glass-making process including which kind of elements are used and in which concentration. Leica works (cutting/polishing etc) the glass - that's where Leica's experience stands out. But it is questionable if it is still better than fully automated/robotic processes used for example by Cosina. I honestly doubt it.

Why Leica lenses are expensive is mostly just for its name. I doubt also that most of the price is coming from "manual labor" Leica advertises.


Jun 18, 2024 at 07:28 AM
stgrove
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p.2 #5 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?


What does Leica do better these days AFA optics go? This is of course a loaded question, but if money is no object then get all brands of the same FL and f stop if possible and see for yourself.

As many have said above-if there is no difference across the board to your eyes get the cheapest, otherwise pick the best for you.

Check using digital, and then if you shoot film check using fine grain film. Now the decision could be more complex, but you will know. Let your eyes do the talking.
Jun 18, 2024 at 07:51 AM
freaklikeme
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p.2 #6 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?


flash wrote:
It’s a cine lens approach to still photography glass.

If that were true, they wouldn't focus breathe as much as they do, but you do make a good point. Their cine lenses are popular, and the Leitz Primes and Zooms are certainly among the best made. They cost as much as a new mid-tier sedan with roughly the same size and weight. I attended a two-day demo in LA and had the best time learning about lenses I will never again touch.
Jun 18, 2024 at 09:11 AM
bjhurley
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p.2 #7 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?


The cinematographer Uli Plank has some interesting things to say about Leica's lens design process back in the day in his Minolta Rokkor Survival Guide:

http://www.personal-view.com/faqs/camera-usage/minolta-rokkor-lenses-faq

"All classical lenses (without digital correction in camera bodies) are a complex optimization of different parameters, some of which can be contradictory. Minolta had a philosophy of not favoring only one parameter (like MTF) on the cost of another, like quality of bokeh (which was discussed among aficionados in Japan much earlier than elsewhere). Most important – in particular for us as filmmakers – is the consistency of color and contrast over the whole line of lenses Minolta was striving for by making their own glass and carefully balancing its color with their coatings. Just like others, they improved coatings over the years and younger versions are in general less flare-prone than older ones, but they always maintained the Minolta look.

Leica (from whom Minolta learned a lot about optics) has never achieved such a level of consistency, they tried to make every single lens as good as possible – with remarkable results. But Summicrons for still cameras with a different number of elements can have quite different color and contrast (I'm not talking about their cine lenses here). Apart from that, the Minolta look is closer to Leica than Zeiss, which are also quite consistent in color (but not always for contrast) in lines like Hasselblad and Contax, just different. That's why I have quite a few of both Rokkors and Contax Zeiss lenses, while I don't have any Leica lenses. Some call Minolta lenses 'poor man's Leicas' for a reason."
Jun 18, 2024 at 09:30 AM
tzhang4284
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p.2 #8 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?


RustyBug wrote:
...

This ^.

That "clarity" thing, the acuteness that Leica optics bring (scopes, binoculars, optometrist equipment, etc.) ... there's something they know that they haven't shared with the rest of the world. Others keep getting sharper and sharper, closer and closer, but Leica has known something about optics for a very long time that differentiates their optics. In my reading, they speak much about the laborious calculations of the geometry, and how computers have improved upon this. But, I can't help but wonder about the chemistry / process they use in making their glass. Imo, (no factual basis to...Show more →

---------------------------------------------

retrofocus wrote:
Leica uses Schott glass. Schott is doing all the glass-making process including which kind of elements are used and in which concentration. Leica works (cutting/polishing etc) the glass - that's where Leica's experience stands out. But it is questionable if it is still better than fully automated/robotic processes used for example by Cosina. I honestly doubt it.

Why Leica lenses are expensive is mostly just for its name. I doubt also that most of the price is coming from "manual labor" Leica advertises.

I think you are heavily undervaluing design, materials selection, coatings and other factors. Schott probably makes a lot of different tiers, types and grades of glass. A good example of this is when you compare the Leica 35mm APO Summicron vs the Voigtlander version. They perform very similarly but the Leica one is significantly smaller and slightly sharper depending on the situation (as reported by each manufacturer's MTFs). The color outputs are also different - if you're going for the Leica look, Voigtlander isn't it. It's not bad, it's different. This is all a product of different design, construction, and materials selection decisions even if it's the same source.

I tried out a lot of the cheaper options that people said were "as good" and honestly I thought the differences were noticeable to me and I decided to just buy the leica versions since that's what I enjoyed using and thought was more pleasing. There's nothing wrong with optimizing for value - my Leica kit cost a quite bit so my b-cam is all about best bang for the buck - but I think there's also a bit of a strong negative reaction to Leica and thinking there's no differentiation when there is.

You're probably right most of the price is in the leica brand but I have yet to try an alternative that gives the same holistic process to image quality. I look at Leica as about 20% innovative and 80% luxury brand and I'm skeptical still of a lot of their lens lineup especially the reissues but I think there's enough there for an image quality focused buyer to justify buying from them. The only other brand I think took as much care in terms of differentiating on factors beyond just sharpness was Zeiss even though Cosina did do the manufacturing - I thought the Zeiss efforts were just better holistically and more well thought out.
Jun 18, 2024 at 11:15 AM
_jim_
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p.2 #9 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?


retrofocus wrote:
But it is questionable if it is still better than fully automated/robotic processes used for example by Cosina. I honestly doubt it.


?si=IoIqiUbnnX-e_ADG

You can clearly see all the robots. Lol.

All lenses, the world over, are made the same way on many of the same machines, regardless of what name is on them.

There are no more/less robots at Cosina vs Leica. There may be differences in allowable tolerances and efficiencies in design that help equipment target certain price points.


Jun 18, 2024 at 11:30 AM
_jim_
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p.2 #10 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?


I do believe that Leica has a handful of bragging-rights lenses. The focus on uniformity of design and ergonomics is commendable. Image quality is somewhat subjective and luxury pricing makes it difficult for some to accurately judge the objective qualities of their purchases. Also, many people have very different relationships to money (vs. myself)...so, me saying that spending $13,000 on the 50/0.95 is silly might be irrelevant to somebody that makes $13,000/week/day/hour/minute.

All that being said, the best thing Leica does is foster interest in photography...especially film photography by continuing to make high-quality film cameras and the optics that go inside them.
Jun 18, 2024 at 11:41 AM
 


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Desmolicious
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p.2 #11 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?


_jim_ wrote..
All that being said, the best thing Leica does is foster interest in photography...especially film photography by continuing to make high-quality film cameras and the optics that go inside them.



Yup, if you get a chance visit a Leica Store. Yes they are bling palaces but they also display work. The location in LA has a very cool gallery upstairs. Worth the visit.
Jun 18, 2024 at 12:56 PM
RexGig0
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p.2 #12 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?


Leica engineers seem to be able to cram much optical correction into a tiny overall package, with examples being the APO Summicron-M ASPH, in 35mm and 50mm. I do not, personally, require or even desire such small sizes, in f/2 lenses, but, I am glad for those who desire this combination of characteristics. The logical competitor of the Leica APO 50mm would be the notably larger Cosina Voigtlander 50mm APO Lanthar, with a size and heft that suit me well. $1.1K US, versus $9K US; I went with the APO Lanthar, last year.

I doubt that any lens truly duplicates the rendering of the Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, with its optical imperfections, which means that there are other lenses that “beat” this Summilux, but it is the imperfections that give this Summilux its distinctive rendering. There may be some Voigtlander fifties that could produce a similar rendering, but, personally, I believe the Summilux-M 50mm ASPH is sufficiently unique to justify having paid “Leica money” for a pre-owned sample, in 2018, to be my first M-mount lens.

I test-shot a friend’s Voigtlander Nokton 35mm f/1.4 II MC, and after subsequently test-shooting a demonstrator Summilux-M 35mm ASPH FLE and a pre-owned, well-preserved, Sixties Summilux-M 35mm Version, side-by-side, developed the opinion that I would be just as happy with the Nokton, regardless of the price. I did not buy that pre-owned Version II, and stopped shopping-around for a pre-owned FLE.

I had been following the images, posted in this forum, shot with the Re-Edition Steel Rim Summilux-M 35mm lens, however, and some of the images prompted me to follow the availability of the Re-Edition. The price was at the upper end of my comfort zone, but on the right side of that margin. I bought yet another optically imperfectly-corrected Leica lens, the Re-Edition Steel Rim, at the end of last June. Notably, I can shoot “perfect” 35mm images, with a my Zeiss Distagon 35mm f/1.4 ASPH. I have the bases covered, either way.




Jun 18, 2024 at 01:50 PM
flash
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p.2 #13 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?


freaklikeme wrote:
If that were true, they wouldn't focus breathe as much as they do, but you do make a good point. Their cine lenses are popular, and the Leitz Primes and Zooms are certainly among the best made. They cost as much as a new mid-tier sedan with roughly the same size and weight. I attended a two-day demo in LA and had the best time learning about lenses I will never again touch.

I was just referring to the consistency of design, size, weight and colour. Not claiming these were cine lenses. Stills lenses in a cine housing, if you like. If I was shooting a set of matched primes for video it would be the Panasonic 1.8’s, which are breathing corrected, mostly. The APO Summicrons are primarily stills lenses. Hopefully you can see what I meant.

Gordon
Jun 18, 2024 at 02:26 PM
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p.2 #14 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?


Better is always subjective-

Is a Porsche better than a Mustang?

Leica designs beautiful optics and they create beautiful images- When I pick up my M11 with a 50 Lux or a 50 APO- They just feel differently to me.

I enjoy the experience over putting on a Voigtlander 35 APO for example.

That’s enough for me- I love it- I will continue to love it.

Nothing more to it-




Jun 18, 2024 at 02:40 PM
flash
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p.2 #15 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?


RustyBug wrote:
Hasselblad glass ain't too shabby, either ... but, it's a bit larger, too.


As an absolute Hasselblad fanboy, I have to admit that HB’s current glass isn’t as good as Leicas best, just. Hasselblad’s older XCD lenses were generally slightly better (except the new 90) then the newer V lenses, in the corners. It seems Hasselblad is slowly making two sets of lenses. The larger ones (25 and 90) are optically super impressive. The smaller ones (28, 38 and 55) are somewhat prioritising size over absolute optics.

Each of my SL APO Summicrons is a better lens than the equivalent HB offering. But if you add the sensor (which you kind of have to) the Hasselblad system out resolves the Leica system but not by as much as you might think.

Also Leica do have a set of S Summarits. Just epic. Unfortunately no camera that can take advantage of them. The S3 just doesn’t do enough, unfortunately.

Gordon
Jun 18, 2024 at 02:47 PM
flash
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p.2 #16 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?


SlowDriver wrote:
Yes, it is, but better than the Canon RF 28-70mm (or the Hasselblad 35-75mm)? And the Canon is half of the price...

And 50% heavier ,

I do agree with you though. Those are my top three for *special* standard zooms. There are sharper (eg: Canon 24-105 2.8) but they’re mostly quite clinical.

The Canon is a bargain for what it is. I hardly use mine because of the weight but it’s also about the only reason I still have Canon in the safe.

Gordon
Jun 18, 2024 at 02:52 PM
ottokbre
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p.2 #17 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?


RustyBug wrote:
...

This ^.

That "clarity" thing, the acuteness that Leica optics bring (scopes, binoculars, optometrist equipment, etc.) ... there's something they know that they haven't shared with the rest of the world. Others keep getting sharper and sharper, closer and closer, but Leica has known something about optics for a very long time that differentiates their optics. I


This is what I am trying to demystify. To me the "Leica Look" is not high contrast but very much high resolving and linear in tone. But I've seen Leica lenses that didn't have this at all. Is it a Summicron thing? Is it a time period thing? (70s-80s thing) It's hard for me to track down.

In some respects I am looking for the ultimate Leica species to try out, with the look and fire sure the haptics. I'm nosing around for a new 50. It's got to have a focus tab and feel amazing in the hand.

Desmolicious wrote:
Yup, if you get a chance visit a Leica Store. Yes they are bling palaces but they also display work. The location in LA has a very cool gallery upstairs. Worth the visit.

I went to the LA store explicitly to see the gallery / book side of things because I had nice experiences at the DC store. It was sort of ho-hum. I'll have to try again after the next rotation of work and see how it stands. But Leica as a brand puts a lot of money and time into ACTUAL photography and promoting talent. I think it's the strongest part of the brand.




Jun 18, 2024 at 04:29 PM
Desmolicious
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p.2 #18 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?


RustyRus wrote
Is a Porsche better than a Mustang?


Yes.
Jun 18, 2024 at 04:30 PM
Desmolicious
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p.2 #19 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?


ottokbre wrote:
..
I went to the LA store explicitly to see the gallery / book side of things because I had nice experiences at the DC store. It was sort of ho-hum. I'll have to try again after the next rotation of work and see how it stands. But Leica as a brand puts a lot of money and time into ACTUAL photography and promoting talent. I think it's the strongest part of the brand.



It also depends on what shows they have, but usually there always is some great stuff even if there is some ho-hum stuff.

When the store first opened, it was all great stuff. But then the lady in charge of the gallery part decided that she wanted to be in the 'in crowd' and so now has an awful lot of stuff that is there because someone got to go to a party where there were famous people and took snaps of them..

Last time I was there was with Steve and I got to meet all sorts of people, including some who thought more of themselves than I think of me....




Jun 18, 2024 at 04:40 PM
speedgraphic
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p.2 #20 · Optics: What does Leica do better these days?


They design lenses in a price-is-no-object market. That's fine, the lenses are pretty good. What I find more impressive is designing a great lens when you have actual cost constraints.

What you get with Leica is the ability to covet something precious. No-one will know you didn't take the image with an equivalent lens from Voigtlander....except that you'll probably tell them.


Jun 18, 2024 at 04:42 PM
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