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Archive 2024 · Official Z6 III Thread -

  
 
GroovyGeek
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p.31 #1 · Official Z6 III Thread -


Steve Spencer wrote:
Yes, this level of performance has been available for a long time but not for this price point. The performance of the partially stacked sensor for IQ is essentially the same as the Sony A9 (all three version including the new A9 III), and the Leica M10. The Canon R6 and R6 II has similar IQ and a similar price but with built-in noise reduction. That is quite nice IQ. Not top level, but this isn't a top level camera it is a lower mid-level camera and it has video specs that are clearly better than the Sony A9
...Show more

I asked this earlier but no one replied so I will try again. Why is a fast readout associated with more noise? The charge accumulated on the photo diode is the same so shot noise is identical and so is the inherent pixel SNR. The faster ADC scan time means less time to digitize, but that in itself should not cause more noise because it just means running a single slope ADC faster. Non idealities in the ADC ramp are deterministic so they should show up as PRNU not noise. What am I missing?



Jul 01, 2024 at 08:45 AM
RoamingScott
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p.31 #2 · Official Z6 III Thread -


GroovyGeek wrote:
I asked this earlier but no one replied so I will try again. Why is a fast readout associated with more noise? The charge accumulated on the photo diode is the same so shot noise is identical and so is the inherent pixel SNR. The faster ADC scan time means less time to digitize, but that in itself should not cause more noise because it just means running a single slope ADC faster. Non idealities in the ADC ramp are deterministic so they should show up as PRNU not noise. What am I missing?


A fairly in-depth read: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4679810



Jul 01, 2024 at 08:56 AM
GroovyGeek
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p.31 #3 · Official Z6 III Thread -


RoamingScott wrote:
A fairly in-depth read: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4679810


Sheesh 4 pages of garbage but thankfully one useful post where they discuss ENOB and ADC non linearity, which is what I had suspected. Fast linear ramps for single slope ADCs are tough and manifest themselves as reduced ENOB which shows up as quantization noise. Higher res ADCs are not a solution since they significantly increase the readout time of single slope ADCs. Given the same clock rate a 15 bit ADC runs 2x slower than a 14 bit.



Jul 01, 2024 at 09:33 AM
Alistair1
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p.31 #4 · Official Z6 III Thread -




RoamingScott wrote:
A fairly in-depth read: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4679810


Good read. Bob Newman (posting as bob2n in this thread) is one of very few people who regularly post on this subject who know what they are talking about.
As an aside, note his cautionary comments about relying on these "DR" graphs as an indicator of IQ.



Jul 01, 2024 at 09:34 AM
RoamingScott
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p.31 #5 · Official Z6 III Thread -


GroovyGeek wrote:
Sheesh 4 pages of garbage but thankfully one useful post where they discuss ENOB and ADC non linearity, which is what I had suspected. Fast linear ramps for single slope ADCs are tough and manifest themselves as reduced ENOB which shows up as quantization noise. Higher res ADCs are not a solution since they significantly increase the readout time of single slope ADCs. Given the same clock rate a 15 bit ADC runs 2x slower than a 14 bit.


Summed up: no free lunch



Jul 01, 2024 at 09:35 AM
Jman13
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p.31 #6 · Official Z6 III Thread -


FWIW, when I went from the Z7 II to the Z8, I actually preferred the Z8 files to the Z7 II cameras despite the 'loss' of dynamic range at base ISO. The files just required less work on my end, and there was tons of dynamic range to be had, even if it is technically less than the Z7 II. I wouldn't be surprised if the same is the case here.

When using my Z8 for landscape I do generally shoot at ISO 64 for that little extra boost of quality, but I've shot tons of landscape and outdoor shots in challenging light at ISO 100 (and ISO 200, and 500...I skip 400 since there's a boost in IQ from 400 to 500), and the files are fantastic there too. The Z6 III is essentially identical to the Z8 at ISO 100 and higher, and so I would also imagine that the Z6 III will perform great at base ISO.


Edited on Jul 01, 2024 at 09:52 AM · View previous versions



Jul 01, 2024 at 09:50 AM
RoamingScott
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p.31 #7 · Official Z6 III Thread -


Jman13 wrote:
FWIW, when I went from the Z7 II to the Z8, I actually preferred the Z8 files to the Z7 II cameras despite the 'loss' of dynamic range at base ISO. The files just required less work on my end, and there was tons of dynamic range to be had, even if it is technically less than the Z7 II. I wouldn't be surprised if the same is the case here. I have a Zf and won't be getting the Z6 III, but I would imagine the real world impact to be negligible between them with regards to dynamic range.
...Show more

And the very small differences are largely fixable in one click within LR or Topaz or DxO or any other.



Jul 01, 2024 at 09:51 AM
ilkka_nissila
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p.31 #8 · Official Z6 III Thread -


Analog electronic signals fluctuate over time. If there is time, you can take multiple readings with the ADC circuitry and average => you end up with a bit less noise. What is causing the fluctuations? Particles (in this case, electrons) at a given temperature move about stochastically and this can result in changes in the signal that is digitized. If you cool the circuit down to near 0 K, you reduce thermal noise but you still have quantum noise. There are also other sources of noise.

Anyway, these sub-1 EV differences in DR should not make all that much practical difference. In some cases you can argue there is a noticeable difference but in the end, other factors are probably more important to the end result in most practical use cases unless you're very picky. If you want the ultimate dynamic range in stills and don't mind very slow sensor read times, maybe medium format is a better option (where price has been coming down in recent years).

The Z6 III has the fastest read time of any Nikon large sensor camera in full sensor width video recording and reportedly it stays cool for prolonged takes so a small penalty in dynamic range is probably acceptable to gain benefits in geometric accuracy and reliability (over other cameras of comparable price and size). Notice that even at the very high end, Sony Venice 2 has faster sensor read time than Arri Alexa 35 but the latter is reported to have higher dynamic range.




Jul 01, 2024 at 10:05 AM
jlafferty
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p.31 #9 · Official Z6 III Thread -


This is the kind of thinking I go for - thanks for posting Steve.

It's interesting to think back that we had the megapixel race for a while; then we had the high ISO performance race; now we seem to have tech splitting along two lines - slower, higher res, max DR, lower noise at low ISOs vs. fast, moderate res, amazing AF and great video in trade for some small steps back in low ISO noise. And appropriately, we have several choices of cameras appropriate to each shooting style.

I wouldn't be so presumptuous to claim I know what Nikon engineers have available to them, and even less so how the economics of scale + production affect what sensor they choose to hitch their cart to. But I expect they're pretty smart people, good at what they do, and made the best educated choices from available tech.

Steve Spencer wrote:
Yes, this level of performance has been available for a long time but not for this price point. The performance of the partially stacked sensor for IQ is essentially the same as the Sony A9 (all three version including the new A9 III), and the Leica M10. The Canon R6 and R6 II has similar IQ and a similar price but with built-in noise reduction. That is quite nice IQ. Not top level, but this isn't a top level camera it is a lower mid-level camera and it has video specs that are clearly better than the Sony A9
...Show more




Jul 01, 2024 at 10:45 AM
DWOfPaul
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p.31 #10 · Official Z6 III Thread -


While the tech side of me finds these graphs interesting, from a photography perspective I doubt it will matter. The Z6III lines up very closely with the Z8, and so far the Z8 produces my favorite files to edit of any camera I have owned. While DR might be hurt a bit at lower ISO that same technology is also gaining us things such as faster AF, faster electronic shutter, and less rolling shutter in video, which all improve IQ also.

If your focus is photography and you want to try and extract as much information out of your photos as possible I would recommend looking into stacking. Doing even a three photo bracket of -2 0 +2 HDR exposure is going to gain you much more dynamic range then one stop. You can also stack multiple photos on top of each other with the same exposure to reduce noise. This can be very helpful for long exposures too, by blending the shoots in PS to create a longer exposure time with less noise. HDR software has gotten much better at giving realistic results if you watch your settings, the high FPS of modern cameras makes hand held HDR / stacks easier then ever as there is less alignment issues with moving subjects, and the in body stabilization helps keep your camera alignment the same over the bracket.



Jul 01, 2024 at 10:54 AM
Max Power
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p.31 #11 · Official Z6 III Thread -


GroovyGeek wrote:
Sheesh 4 pages of garbage but thankfully one useful post where they discuss ENOB and ADC non linearity, which is what I had suspected. Fast linear ramps for single slope ADCs are tough and manifest themselves as reduced ENOB which shows up as quantization noise. Higher res ADCs are not a solution since they significantly increase the readout time of single slope ADCs. Given the same clock rate a 15 bit ADC runs 2x slower than a 14 bit.


Um.....what?




Jul 01, 2024 at 10:55 AM
GroovyGeek
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p.31 #12 · Official Z6 III Thread -



Max Power wrote:
Um.....what?



TL;DR version - faster readout imposes distortion (non linearity) on the readout that manifests itself as if the ADC has fewer than 14 bits, which causes larger digitization noise... which can be fixed by slower readout

Everything else is gobbledygook for the pocket protector crowd. But at least now I kind of understand.



Jul 01, 2024 at 12:58 PM
PixiPhotography
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p.31 #13 · Official Z6 III Thread -



I like this guy. He puts cameras through their paces and gives a unbiased review




Jul 01, 2024 at 01:38 PM
1bwana1
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p.31 #14 · Official Z6 III Thread -


ArizonaImage wrote:
I like this guy. He puts cameras through their paces and gives a unbiased review



I also like him, but he is far from unbiased. He is an official Nikon Ambassador, and well paid by Nikon for his reviews. Still better than most YouTube reviewers.



Jul 01, 2024 at 02:00 PM
PixiPhotography
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p.31 #15 · Official Z6 III Thread -


1bwana1 wrote:
I also like him, but he is far from unbiased. He is an official Nikon Ambassador, and well paid by Nikon for his reviews. Still better than most YouTube reviewers.


Ohh I didn't know that. I saw he used Sony cameras for his channel.



Jul 01, 2024 at 02:49 PM
1bwana1
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p.31 #16 · Official Z6 III Thread -





https://www.nikon.co.uk/en_GB/learn-and-explore/nikon-family/ambassadors/morten-hilmer

But a straight guy in my experience.

Edited on Jul 01, 2024 at 03:25 PM · View previous versions



Jul 01, 2024 at 03:23 PM
RoamingScott
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p.31 #17 · Official Z6 III Thread -


Morton has some of the most unwatchable content on YT but that's probably just me. I don't have an hour for an un-timestamped video that is mostly ambient noises that make his quiet accent-heavy dialogue almost impossible to hear. People seem to love that style, though.


Jul 01, 2024 at 03:25 PM
johnvanr
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p.31 #18 · Official Z6 III Thread -


RoamingScott wrote:
Morton has some of the most unwatchable content on YT but that's probably just me. I don't have an hour for an un-timestamped video that is mostly ambient noises that make his quiet accent-heavy dialogue almost impossible to hear. People seem to love that style, though.


On the contrary, his videos are better than most. Plus, he’s a real working photographer and YT is just something he does on the side or during real work. He also shares really good tips, based on actual shooting experiences. And it’s a monologue, not a dialogue.



Jul 01, 2024 at 04:10 PM
johnvanr
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p.31 #19 · Official Z6 III Thread -


ArizonaImage wrote:
Ohh I didn't know that. I saw he used Sony cameras for his channel.


Nah, he’s a Nikon shooter. Seems to be the only YouTuber who gets a Nikon to play with, without a Nikon escort. But he’s also straightforward.



Jul 01, 2024 at 04:13 PM
PixiPhotography
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p.31 #20 · Official Z6 III Thread -


RoamingScott wrote:
Morton has some of the most unwatchable content on YT but that's probably just me. I don't have an hour for an un-timestamped video that is mostly ambient noises that make his quiet accent-heavy dialogue almost impossible to hear. People seem to love that style, though.


Yeah, it took me a whole lot of skipping to see some actual photos/video. I didn't like that his videos aren't sectioned. I think he did better with the Z9 than the Z6 III. I didn't see much photos or video with the Z6 III



Jul 01, 2024 at 04:14 PM
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