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Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

chiron
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

I am someone who has only used electronic shutter on my cameras. With cameras with non-stacked sensors, I have had terrible problems with images being ruined by banding caused by LED lighting.

My question is really directed at people who use the mechanical shutter (which is really an EFCS) on either the A7CII or the A7CR:

Does the use of the mechanical shutter on the A7CR or the A7CII eliminate all or most LED banding in images? What has your experience been?

May 14, 2024 at 08:03 AM

Mahjong15
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

On my first day out with a new A7C2, I experienced banding using both the (hybrid) mechanical and electronic shutters. I had taken thousands of pictures in the same or similar settings with my A6700 and never once experienced banding. My A7C2 is reboxed and ready to go back to Sony.

Sep 03, 2024 at 05:13 PM

chiron
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

Mahjong15 wrote:
On my first day out with a new A7C2, I experienced banding using both the (hybrid) mechanical and electronic shutters. I had taken thousands of pictures in the same or similar settings with my A6700 and never once experienced banding. My A7C2 is reboxed and ready to go back to Sony.

What you report is actually quite odd. The only time I have had problems with banding were with LED lights and non-stacked sensors using electronic shutter. So, I am very surprised to hear you say you had taken thousands of photos without a problem in circumstances that now produced banding with the A7CII.

Where and what were you shooting? Also, the reports by various bloggers online is that the EFCS mechanical shutter eliminates most problems under LED lights.

Can you add more detail about what your circumstances were when you got banding and what other cameras you had used in similar circumstances without banding?

Sep 03, 2024 at 05:40 PM

dakel
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

Just this past weekend, I was shooting pictures of my family in a cafe, using the Sony A7CR with electronic shutter. The banding was horrible. I switched to the mech. shutter and it seemed to fix the problem although I haven't checked on the big screen yet.

Sep 03, 2024 at 05:40 PM

GMPhotography
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

You really need variable shutter in mechanical shutter

Sep 03, 2024 at 06:17 PM

NJPhotographer
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

I don't have either of those cameras, but I believe one way to eliminate or reduce LED banding with electronic shutter is to use a slow shutter speed, in the 1/30th to 1/125th range.

Sep 03, 2024 at 06:48 PM

Juha Kannisto
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

I always switch my A7CII to EFCS mode with Anti-Flicker set ON when shooting in environments that are lit by artificial light. It has been effective in eliminating banding.

https://helpguide.sony.net/ilc/2360/v1/en/contents/201h_anti_flicker_setting.html?search=anti-flicker

I've not tried using variable shutter option as I've not had any problems with banding when using Anti-Flicker, but it should also be helpful.

https://helpguide.sony.net/ilc/2360/v1/en/contents/201h_anti_flicker_comparison.html

Sep 03, 2024 at 06:59 PM

chiron
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

dakel wrote:
Just this past weekend, I was shooting pictures of my family in a cafe, using the Sony A7CR with electronic shutter. The banding was horrible. I switched to the mech. shutter and it seemed to fix the problem although I haven't checked on the big screen yet.

That is what I would expect to happen. The cafe no doubt had LED lighting as is more and more ubiquitous. Switching to the EFCS should fix it except in a few edge cases with specialty LED llights, like stadium scoreboards.

EFCS has some minor rendering drawbacks to full mechanical when using wide apertues combined with high shutter speeds (1/2000th+), but i haven't seen anything to suggest that EFCS and full mechanical differ on how well they handle LED lights and banding. They should both do the same.

Edited on Sep 03, 2024 at 09:15 PM · View previous versions

Sep 03, 2024 at 08:49 PM

chiron
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

NJPhotographer wrote:
I don't have either of those cameras, but I believe one way to eliminate or reduce LED banding with electronic shutter is to use a slow shutter speed, in the 1/30th to 1/125th range.

In the US, if you use 1/60 or 1/125 with electronic shutter, you will sync with the AC driven cycle and not have a problem. In Europe and I thin in Japan, the corresponding speeds are 1/50 and 1/100. But a speed like 1/90th will get you banding.

Sep 03, 2024 at 08:54 PM

tschopp
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

My understanding of the banding is it is essentially a rolling shutter issue. If you shoot electronic the sensor readout speed is slower than the flicker in the LED. So some parts of the sensor are read when there is more light and some with less light, causing the banding.

When you shoot mechanical the shutter speed is now faster than the flicker and so the flicker goes away.

The anti flicker setting delays when the shutter fires until the lighting is at the peak brightness. This allows consistent exposure under LED.

The type of camera doesn’t matter, just how fast the shutter is or how fast the readout for electronic shutter.

Sep 03, 2024 at 08:56 PM

mherf
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

A curtain shutter usually takes around 4ms to go from top to bottom of the frame, so it works about as well as a Sony a9 (v1) at mitigating flicker. The only faster thing is a leaf shutter (like Hasselblad or Fuji), or the new global shutter on the a9 v3. When you use a "normal" electronic shutter (on a non-stacked sensor) it's much slower and can take 15-100ms.

Generally with PWM-based lighting, you can mitigate flicker by making your shutter speed lower, or by making your read-out speed faster. As you improve these things, the flicker doesn't go away, it just becomes a smaller percentage of the signal so you see less of it.

https://www.ayton.id.au/wiki/doku.php?id=photo:sensor_readout_speed

Sep 04, 2024 at 11:25 AM

chiron
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

mherf wrote:
A curtain shutter usually takes around 4ms to go from top to bottom of the frame, so it works about as well as a Sony a9 (v1) at mitigating flicker. The only faster thing is a leaf shutter (like Hasselblad or Fuji), or the new global shutter on the a9 v3. When you use a "normal" electronic shutter (on a non-stacked sensor) it's much slower and can take 15-100ms.

Generally with PWM-based lighting, you can mitigate flicker by making your shutter speed lower, or by making your read-out speed faster. As you improve these things, the flicker doesn't go away, it...Show more →

Good summary and good link, which gives a nice, well-supported account of these issues.

I think you meant to type "A1" instead of "A9" as the fastest at 4 msec and 1/260 of a second.

Sep 04, 2024 at 02:40 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

tschopp wrote:
My understanding of the banding is it is essentially a rolling shutter issue. If you shoot electronic the sensor readout speed is slower than the flicker in the LED. So some parts of the sensor are read when there is more light and some with less light, causing the banding.

When you shoot mechanical the shutter speed is now faster than the flicker and so the flicker goes away.

The anti flicker setting delays when the shutter fires until the lighting is at the peak brightness. This allows consistent exposure under LED.

The type of camera doesn’t matter, just how fast the shutter...Show more →

The type of camera does matter and the A7C series does not have a fully mechanical shutter which means you can't simply use the full mechanical shutter as one way to avoid most banding. Of course some cameras (A9 I and II series and A1 series) have a fast enough electronic shutter that it avoids banding in most situations as well, and the A9 III with its global shutter avoids banding in almost all situations. That said there are many different types of LED lights with many different cycle speeds, so this issue can be complicated. If you are shooting stills the A9 III is pretty bullet proof. If you are shooting the A9 I or II or the A1 you will mostly be fine in electronic shutter mode for stills if the LED lights cycle to AC power, but some have other cycles. If you have a camera with a full mechanical shutter you will mostly be fine with the full mechanical shutter as long as the LED lights are not super fast cycling. If you have an A7C series camera you can use anti-flicker mode which can detect 100 MHZ and 120 MHz cycling and mostly works with florescent lights, and adjusts the electronic shutter or electronic first curtain shutter to mostly avoid banding. So for the most common types of lights banding can be avoided. If you encounter lights with a different cycle speed you can also use variable shutter on some cameras to try to tune the electronic or electronic first curtain shutter to the cycle of the LED lights. Here is a detailed description from Sony on how to handle these issues:

https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00122281

Note the A7C series only have anti-flicker and not the variable shutter feature. The A9 I and II and A1 have the variable shutter feature. So camera type really does matter and there are times when the A7C series will not be able to avoid banding. Your best bet is to first try adjusting shutter speed to 1/60 or 1/120 and see if that works. If it does not, then try anti-flicker mode. If neither of those work, and there will be some lights for which neither will work, realize that is a limitation of the camera. This issue is one reason that I think Sony should have included a full mechanical shutter with this camera, and why I think for the next generation Sony should either include a full mechanical shutter or a stacked sensor in these cameras.

Edited on Sep 04, 2024 at 04:10 PM · View previous versions

Sep 04, 2024 at 03:42 PM

RoamingScott
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

chiron wrote:
I am someone who has only used electronic shutter on my cameras.

Curious about the "why" behind this.

Sep 04, 2024 at 03:45 PM

chiron
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

RoamingScott wrote:
Curious about the "why" behind this.

Less distracting and attention-getting.

Sep 04, 2024 at 04:24 PM

chiron
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

Nothing except a global shutter will eliminate any possibility of banding. EFCS will eliminate most LED banding with the range of LED lights that are commonly encountered. But some lights can produce more banding problems for EFCS, especially at high shutter speeds, and some lights can produce banding even for full mechanical shutters. I believe Jim Kasson has done a somewhat discouraging illustration of this, but I may be misremembering. The A1 and A9, with their stacked sensors and fast readout, will generally avoid LED banding but even they are not fully proof against some LED lights.

Below is a link to a nice discussion by Spencer Cox at Photography Life that includes an illutstration of an EFCS coping well with LED lights and also an illustration of an EFCS shutter producing some banding at a high shutter speed (1/2000). Banding can be subtle.

https://photographylife.com/mechanical-electronic-shutter-efcs#flickering-in-artificial-light

Sep 04, 2024 at 04:24 PM

tschopp
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

chiron wrote:
Below is a link to a nice discussion by Spencer Cox at Photography Life that includes an illutstration of an EFCS coping well with LED lights and also an illustration of an EFCS shutter producing some banding at a high shutter speed (1/2000). Banding can be subtle.

https://photographylife.com/mechanical-electronic-shutter-efcs#flickering-in-artificial-light

I wonder if this is caused by the same effect that causes the Bokeh issues at fast shutter, the difference in height from the sensor plane for the curtains. In the above example that would make sense if the flicker was very fast compared to the shutter sweep and the directionality was steep. It seems like a very unusual edge case.

Sep 04, 2024 at 05:47 PM

chiron
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

tschopp wrote:
I wonder if this is caused by the same effect that causes the Bokeh issues at fast shutter, the difference in height from the sensor plane for the curtains. In the above example that would make sense if the flicker was very fast compared to the shutter sweep and the directionality was steep. It seems like a very unusual edge case.

That could be the explanation, but I suspect it has to do with the electronic first curtain "opening" the sensor exposure by turning on each of the rows sequentially. If that happens more slowly than the LED is cycling, one would get bands (or so I speculate).

My guess (I really don't know!) is that the turning on of the sensor rows happens faster than the reading out of data from the sensor rows can happen. So, the relatively quick sequential activation of the rows is fast enough for most LED lights' cycling but not quite as fast as a mechanical shutter can open the sensor. In other words, I think that the mechanical opening shutter passes over the sensor rows more quickly than the electronic opening of the sensor rows takes place. So, the EFCS works well for most LED lights, but not as well as a mechanical shutter for the edge-case LEDs, especially when combined with high shutter speeds (1/2000 in Cox's example).

If this account is correct (big IF), then presuamably the faster readout of the stacked sensors in the A1 and A9xx cameras may open their EFCS faster than than a slower sensor in a non-stacked sensor-camera can do. Or, the turning on of the rows and the reading out of the rows may not be correlated in terms of speed.

We need someone like @snapsy to weigh in here and explain it all!

If the above is at all right, maybe he can do a study of the sensor turn-on times under EFCS, as he did for sensor read-out times!

Or maybe everything I wrote above is very wrong!

Sep 04, 2024 at 06:41 PM

dclark
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

When using pulsed lighting, the amount of light illuminating the subject during the camera’s exposure interval depends on shutter speed and the synchronization of the shutter with the light pulses. The reason banding is seen is that the synchronization changes from the top of the image to the bottom of the image. The reason the synchronization changes is that the shutter curtains, mechanical or electronic, are moving slowly and the top of the image is exposed earlier than the bottom. This has been discussed quite a lot in the context of the image distortion caused by time aliasing. See for example https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1663827/3/.

There are two basic approaches to mitigating banding:
(1) adjust the exposure interval so that a constant amount of light illuminates the subject regardless of the synchronization of the exposure interval relative to the light pulses,
(2) synchronize the camera exposure interval with light pulsing interval.

For example, if the illumination comes from LED lights that are pulsed 120 times per second, if the camera shutter speed is set to 1/120 sec, all the pixels will see one pulse of light regardless of the synchronization of the LED pulses with the shutter opening. That means as the shutter opening traverses from top to bottom of image (from bottom to top of the sensor) the pixels all get one LED pulse of light illuminating the subject. Some pixels get the pulse at the beginning the exposure, then as the shutter slit moves down the image the light from the first pulse goes away and the next pulse provides illumination at the end of the exposure, and as the shutter continues to move down the image the second pulse is earlier in the exposure interval. If the shutter speed is 1/60 sec, 2 pulses of illumination fit in the exposure interval. In between 1/120 and 1/60, the amount of light will vary between 1 pulse and 2 pulses and will depend on the synchronization of the exposure interval with the LED pulses and the width of the LED pulses.
This method is effective even if the shutter curtains are moving slowly.
Sometimes the pulsing of the lights can be fast and the available shutter speeds will not align with an integer number of light pulses. In this case some cameras allow the shutter speed to be adjusted so that an integer number of pulses are included in the exposure interval, and banding is eliminated.

If the camera shutter is synchronized with the LED pulsing or fluorescent light pulsing the banding can be greatly reduced or eliminated. Some cameras can detect the pulsing light and center the light pulse in the exposure interval of the camera when the shutter slit is at the center of the sensor. As the exposure interval moves from the top to the bottom of the image, the change in exposure is minimized. This is useful and effective for shorter shutter speeds that cannot include an integer number of light pulses. This method needs for the shutter transit time to be short enough that pulse that is centered does not move outside the exposure interval as the synchronization changes at the top and bottom of the image. The means a fast mechanical or electronic shutter.

Different camera have different capabilities, settings and terminology, but I believe they all are implementations of the same basic methods.

Edited on Sep 05, 2024 at 12:36 AM · View previous versions

Sep 04, 2024 at 08:21 PM

tschopp
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?

Yes, slow shutter that is an integer multiple of the flicker or fast mechanical shutter using the anti flicker to sync with peak light makes sense.

Did you look at the article referenced? There was one shot at 1/2000 that showed banding with EFCS and none with full mechanical. That is what I have questions about.

dclark wrote:
When using pulsed lighting, the amount of light illuminating the subject during the camera’s exposure interval depends on shutter speed and the synchronization of the shutter with the light pulses. The reason banding is seen is that the synchronization changes from the top of the image to the bottom of the image. The reason the synchronization changes is that the shutter curtains, mechanical or electronic, are moving slowly and the top of the image is exposed earlier than the bottom. This has been discussed quite a lot in the context of the image distortion caused by time aliasing. See for example https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1663827/3/.

There are two basic approaches to mitigating banding:
(1) adjust the exposure interval so that a constant amount of light illuminates the subject regardless of the synchronization of the exposure interval relative to the light pulses,
(2) synchronize the camera exposure interval with light pulsing interval.

For example, if the illumination comes from LED lights that are pulsed 120 times per second, if the camera shutter speed is set to 1/120 sec, all the pixels will see one pulse of light regardless of the synchronization of the LED pulses with the shutter opening. That means as the shutter opening traverses from top to bottom of image (from bottom to top of the sensor) the pixels all get one LED pulse of light illuminating the subject. Some pixels get the pulse at the beginning the exposure, then as the shutter slit moves down the image the light from the first pulse goes away and the next pulse provides illumination at the end of the exposure, and as the shutter continues to move down the image the second pulse is earlier in the exposure interval. If the shutter speed is 1/60 sec, 2 pulses of illumination fit in the exposure interval. In between 1/120 and 1/60, the amount of light will vary between 1 pulse and 2 pulses and will depend on the synchronization of the exposure interval with the LED pulses and the width of the LED pulses.
This method is effective even if the shutter curtains are moving slowly.
Sometimes the pulsing of the lights can be fast and the available shutter speeds will not align with an integer number of light pulses. In this case some cameras allow the shutter speed to be adjusted so that an integer number of pulses are included in the exposure interval, and banding is eliminated.

(2) If the camera shutter is synchronized with the LED pulsing or fluorescent light pulsing the banding can be greatly reduced or eliminated. Some cameras can detect the pulsing light and center the light pulse in the exposure interval of the camera when the shutter slit is at the center of the sensor. As the exposure interval moves from the top to the bottom of the image, the change in exposure is minimized. This is useful and effective for shorter shutter speeds that cannot include an integer number of light pulses. This method needs for the shutter transit time to be short enough that pulse that is centered does not move outside the exposure interval as the synchronization changes at the top and bottom of the image. The means a fast mechanical or electronic shutter.

Different camera have different capabilities, settings and terminology, but I believe they all are implementations of the same basic methods.
...Show more →

Sep 04, 2024 at 09:11 PM

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