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  Previous versions of Steve Spencer's message #16633729 « Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding? »
  

Steve Spencer
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Re: Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?


tschopp wrote:
My understanding of the banding is it is essentially a rolling shutter issue. If you shoot electronic the sensor readout speed is slower than the flicker in the LED. So some parts of the sensor are read when there is more light and some with less light, causing the banding.

When you shoot mechanical the shutter speed is now faster than the flicker and so the flicker goes away.

The anti flicker setting delays when the shutter fires until the lighting is at the peak brightness. This allows consistent exposure under LED.

The type of camera doesn’t matter, just how fast the shutter is or how fast the readout for electronic shutter.

The type of camera does matter and the A7C series does not have a fully mechanical shutter which means you can't simply use the full mechanical shutter as one way to avoid most banding. Of course some cameras (A9 I and II series and A1 series) have a fast enough electronic shutter that it avoids banding in most situations as well, and the A9 III with its global shutter avoids banding in almost all situations. That said there are many different types of LED lights with many different cycle speeds, so this issue can be complicated. If you are shooting stills the A9 III is pretty bullet proof. If you are shooting the A9 I or II or the A1 you will mostly be fine in electronic shutter mode for stills if the LED lights cycle to AC power, but some have other cycles. If you have a camera with a full mechanical shutter you will mostly be fine with the full mechanical shutter as long as the LED lights are not super fast cycling. If you have an A7C series camera you can use anti-flicker mode which can detect 100 MHZ and 120 MHz cycling and mostly works with florescent lights, and adjusts the electronic shutter or electronic first curtain shutter to mostly avoid banding. So for the most common types of lights banding can be avoided. If you encounter lights with a different cycle speed you can also use variable shutter on some cameras to try to tune the electronic or electronic first curtain shutter to the cycle of the LED lights. Here is a detailed description from Sony on how to handle these issues:

https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00122281

Note the A7C series only have anti-flicker and not the variable shutter feature. The A9 I and II and A1 have the variable shutter feature. So camera type really does matter and there are times when the A7C series will not be able to avoid banding. Your best bet is to first try adjusting shutter speed to 1/60 or 1/120 and see if that works. If it does not, then try anti-flicker mode. If neither of those work, and there will be some lights for which neither will work, realize that is a limitation of the camera. This issue is one reason that I think Sony should have included a full manual shutter with this camera, and why I think for the next generation Sony should either include a full mechanical shutter or a stacked sensor in these cameras.


Sep 04, 2024 at 04:05 PM
Steve Spencer
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Re: Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?


tschopp wrote:
My understanding of the banding is it is essentially a rolling shutter issue. If you shoot electronic the sensor readout speed is slower than the flicker in the LED. So some parts of the sensor are read when there is more light and some with less light, causing the banding.

When you shoot mechanical the shutter speed is now faster than the flicker and so the flicker goes away.

The anti flicker setting delays when the shutter fires until the lighting is at the peak brightness. This allows consistent exposure under LED.

The type of camera doesn’t matter, just how fast the shutter is or how fast the readout for electronic shutter.

The type of camera does matter and the A7C series does not have a fully mechanical shutter which means you can't simply use the full mechanical shutter as one way to avoid most banding. Of course some cameras (A9 I and II series and A1 series) have a fast enough electronic shutter that it avoids banding in most situations as well, and the A9 III with its global shutter avoids banding in almost all situations. That said there are many different types of LED lights with many different cycle speeds, so this issue can be complicated. If you are shooting stills the A9 III is pretty bullet proof. If you are shooting the A9 I or II or the A1 you will mostly be fine in electronic shutter mode for stills if the LED lights cycle to AC power, but some have other cycles. If you have a camera with a full mechanical shutter you will mostly be fine with the full mechanical shutter as long as the LED lights are not super fast cycling. If you have an A7C series camera you can use anti-flicker mode which can detect 100 MHZ and 120 MHz cycling and mostly works with florescent lights, and adjusts the electronic shutter or electronic first curtain shutter to mostly avoid banding. So for the most common types of lights banding can be avoided. If you encounter lights with a different cycle speed you can also use variable shutter on some cameras to try to tune the electronic or electronic first curtain shutter to the cycle of the LED lights. Here is a detailed description from Sony on how to handle these issues:

https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00122281

Note the A7C series only have anti-flicker and not the variable shutter feature. The A9 I and II and A1 have the variable shutter feature. So camera type really does matter and there are times when the A7C series will not be able to avoid banding. Your best bet is to first try adjusting shutter speed to 1/60 or 1/120 and see if that works. If it does not, then try anti-flicker mode. If neither of those work, and there will be some lights for which neither will work, realize that is a limitation of the camera. This issue is one reason that I think Sony should have included a full manual shutter with this camera, and why I think for the next generation Sony should either include a full manual shutter or a stacked sensor in these cameras.


Sep 04, 2024 at 04:00 PM
Steve Spencer
Offline
Upload & Sell: On
Re: Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?


tschopp wrote:
My understanding of the banding is it is essentially a rolling shutter issue. If you shoot electronic the sensor readout speed is slower than the flicker in the LED. So some parts of the sensor are read when there is more light and some with less light, causing the banding.

When you shoot mechanical the shutter speed is now faster than the flicker and so the flicker goes away.

The anti flicker setting delays when the shutter fires until the lighting is at the peak brightness. This allows consistent exposure under LED.

The type of camera doesn’t matter, just how fast the shutter is or how fast the readout for electronic shutter.

The type of camera does matter and the A7C series does not have a fully mechanical shutter which means you can't simply use the full mechanical shutter as one way to avoid most banding. Of course some cameras (A9 I and II series and A1 series) have a fast enough electronic shutter that it avoids banding in most situations as well, and the A9 III with its global shutter avoids banding in almost all situations. That said there are many different types of LED lights with many different cycle speeds, so this issue can be complicated. If you are shooting stills the A9 III is pretty bullet proof. If you are shooting the A9 I or II or the A1 you will mostly be fine in electronic shutter mode for stills if the LED lights cycle to AC power, but some have other cycles. If you have a camera with a full mechanical shutter you will mostly be fine with the full mechanical shutter as long as the LED lights are not super fast cycling. If you have an A7C series camera you can use anti-flicker mode which can detect 100 MHZ and 120 MHz cycling and mostly works with florescent lights, and adjusts the electronic shutter or electronic first curtain shutter to mostly avoid banding. So for the most common types of lights banding can be avoided. If you encounter lights with a different cycle speed you can also use variable shutter on some cameras to try to tune the electronic or electronic first curtain shutter to the cycle of the LED lights. Here is a detailed description from Sony on how to handle these issues:

https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00122281

Note the A7C series only have anti-flicker and not the variable shutter feature. The A9 I and II and A1 have variable the variable shutter feature. So camera type really does matter and there are times when the A7C series will not be able to avoid banding. Your best bet is to first try adjusting shutter speed to 1/60 or 1/120 and see if that works. If it does not, then try anti-flicker mode. If neither of those work, and there will be some lights for which neither will work, realize that is a limitation of the camera. This issue is one reason that I think Sony should have included a full manual shutter with this camera, and why I think for the next generation Sony should either include a full manual shutter or a stacked sensor in these cameras.


Sep 04, 2024 at 03:59 PM
Steve Spencer
Offline
Upload & Sell: On
Re: Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding?


tschopp wrote:
My understanding of the banding is it is essentially a rolling shutter issue. If you shoot electronic the sensor readout speed is slower than the flicker in the LED. So some parts of the sensor are read when there is more light and some with less light, causing the banding.

When you shoot mechanical the shutter speed is now faster than the flicker and so the flicker goes away.

The anti flicker setting delays when the shutter fires until the lighting is at the peak brightness. This allows consistent exposure under LED.

The type of camera doesn’t matter, just how fast the shutter is or how fast the readout for electronic shutter.

The type of camera does matter and the A7C series does not have a fully mechanical shutter which means you can't simply use the full mechanical shutter as one way to avoid most banding. Of course some cameras (A9 I and II series and A1 series) have a fast enough electronic shutter that it avoids banding in most situations as well, and the A9 III with its global shutter avoids banding in almost all situations. That said there are many different types of LED lights with many different cycle speeds, so this issue can be complicated. If you are shooting stills the A9 III is pretty bullet proof. If you are shooting the A9 I or II or the A1 you will mostly be fine in electronic shutter mode for stills if the LED lights cycle to AC power, but some have other cycles. If you have a camera with a full mechanical shutter you will mostly be fine with the full mechanical shutter as long as the LED lights are not super fast cycling. If you have an A7C series camera you can use anti-flicker mode which can detect 100 MHZ and 120 MHz cycling and mostly works with florescent lights, and adjusts the electronic shutter or electronic first curtain shutter to mostly avoid banding. So for the most common types of lights banding can be avoided. If you encounter lights with a different cycle speed you can also use variable shutter on some cameras to try to tune the electronic or electronic first curtain shutter to the cycle of the LED lights. Here is a detailed description from Sony on how to handle these issues:

https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00122281


Sep 04, 2024 at 03:42 PM





  Previous versions of Steve Spencer's message #16633729 « Does mechanical shutter on A7CR or A7CII eliminate LED banding? »
 




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