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Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II

  
 
Steve Spencer
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II


Alan Parker wrote:
I'm in the same boat. I would want to upgrade as well; but the weaker performance at 70mm doesn't sit too well with me. The upgrade would also probably cost me 600 euros, which isn't too great


There is copy variation in lenses and with one lens (and especially with zoom lenses that are more complex and thus vary more) you can never be sure if it is the specific lens that is performing the way it is or that is how in general the lens performs. One useful use of MTFs is that they can tell us something about how the lens was designed to perform more generally and the MTF charts for this lens tells us it was designed to perform a little better at 70 than 24 and some reviews (Chris and Jordan at petapixel) are consistent with that. I don't think this lens will generally have weaker performance at 70mm, although I don't doubt that some copies will.



May 17, 2024 at 10:02 AM
j4nu
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II


Well, Sigma is not worse than Sony in that regard...

Anyways, do I read it right that up close performance (sharpness), especially on the long end, is not improved?




May 17, 2024 at 10:05 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II


snapsy wrote:
If Sigma can't manage to send good copies to reviewers then it doesn't bode well for the sample variation of the full-production copies.


Do you really think that Sigma or anyone else cherry picks copies to send to reviewers? I don't and I certainly hope they don't. It might lead to a bit better reviews, but it would also set expectations to high for a lens and setting those expectation too high is a recipe for consumer dissatisfaction and lots of grumbling and returns. In the end, I think it would be better to just send lenses as they are produced by the factory to reviewer and send out an accurate information about the lens. Reviews are already skewed positive for most review sites. Adding to that by cherry picking lenses is just setting up people to be unhappy and I doubt it would be worth it for lens companies.



May 17, 2024 at 10:06 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II


j4nu wrote:
Well, Sigma is not worse than Sony in that regard...

Anyways, do I read it right that up close performance (sharpness), especially on the long end, is not improved?



Way too early to tell, but I would not be surprised if that were true. The goal of softening the bokeh, which is a stated goal here, can rarely be achieved while also increasing close up performance. Those two goals are usually in conflict as spherical aberrations soften the bokeh and weaken close up performance. If you work to eliminate the last remnants of spherical aberrations, then the bokeh not as soft.



May 17, 2024 at 10:09 AM
snapsy
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II


Steve Spencer wrote:
Do you really think that Sigma or anyone else cherry picks copies to send to reviewers? I don't and I certainly hope they don't. It might lead to a bit better reviews, but it would also set expectations to high for a lens and setting those expectation too high is a recipe for consumer dissatisfaction and lots of grumbling and returns. In the end, I think it would be better to just send lenses as they are produced by the factory to reviewer and send out an accurate information about the lens. Reviews are already skewed positive for most
...Show more

No, I don't think Sigma cherry picks copies sent to reviewers.



May 17, 2024 at 10:09 AM
j4nu
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II


Yes, I really liked how the first DG DN rendered actually.
Having said that, GM II looks like a more enticing option to me now, minus the price of course.

Steve Spencer wrote:
Way too early to tell, but I would not be surprised if that were true. The goal of softening the bokeh, which is a stated goal here, can rarely be achieved while also increasing close up performance. Those two goals are usually in conflict as spherical aberrations soften the bokeh and weaken close up performance. If you work to eliminate the last remnants of spherical aberrations, then the bokeh not as soft.




May 17, 2024 at 10:22 AM
ketang
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II


Steve Spencer wrote:
Way too early to tell, but I would not be surprised if that were true. The goal of softening the bokeh, which is a stated goal here, can rarely be achieved while also increasing close up performance. Those two goals are usually in conflict as spherical aberrations soften the bokeh and weaken close up performance. If you work to eliminate the last remnants of spherical aberrations, then the bokeh not as soft.


I understand that in principle and good to note. However, with the Sigma I found the close-up contrast, sharpness, and LoCA all to be worse than not only the Sony GM II, but also the original version I, and I liked the bokeh on both of those. Standard zooms are all about compromises but I think it's too much of a compromise for this use case.



May 17, 2024 at 10:47 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II


ketang wrote:
I understand that in principle and good to note. However, with the Sigma I found the close-up contrast, sharpness, and LoCA all to be worse than not only the Sony GM II, but also the original version I, and I liked the bokeh on both of those. Standard zooms are all about compromises but I think it's too much of a compromise for this use case.


Again, however, no one has examined multiple copies of this lens and in my view it will be awhile before we know how the lens performs more generally. I don't doubt a specific copy performed the way you described, but I am not at all convinced that is the way the lens typically performs. Some reviews, notably (Chris and Jordan from petapixel, for example) report low LoCA with the sample they tested, so I am not at all sure that it will have more LoCA than the version I (I kind of doubt that), actually) or maybe even than the GM.



May 17, 2024 at 10:55 AM
ketang
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II


Steve Spencer wrote:
Again, however, no one has examined multiple copies of this lens and in my view it will be awhile before we know how the lens performs more generally. I don't doubt a specific copy performed the way you described, but I am not at all convinced that is the way the lens typically performs. Some reviews, notably (Chris and Jordan from petapixel, for example) report low LoCA with the sample they tested, so I am not at all sure that it will have more LoCA than the version I (I kind of doubt that), actually) or maybe even than
...Show more

That's true, though I find that different copies tend to perform differently for things like corner sharpness, but for how hazy the images are and how strong LoCA is does not differ significantly by copy in my experience. I did notice they said low LoCA in the PetaPixel review, and I was encouraged at first. It made me think that the sample shot at 4:58 in their video was a fluke:






That shot is at 70mm and closed down one stop to f/4, which on the v1 has some improvement over shooting at f/2.8.

I then watched other reviews (Dustin Abbott, Gerald Undone, Christopher Frost) which all noted issues with LoCA and close-up performance, so I think PetaPixel missed something on that test. In the end, I would love to be proven wrong, but it seems like the optical design is just fairly similar to v1.



May 17, 2024 at 12:39 PM
Fboss
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II


I watched a few reviews last night. This one (you can enable auto-translate subtitles) also shows differences with the 1st version and the Sony GMII
https://youtu.be/eFEPJ6Urvyw?si=YFgZIjzZ7icxO-q7
( With this sample, the corners at 24mm f/2.8 seem to be improved from the Mark I, and very similar to the GMII )
I'm trying to understand if the LoCA is only an issue at close /macro distance and wide apertures only.



May 17, 2024 at 05:20 PM
 


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tschopp
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II


I知 thinking the minor element changes will make a minor improvement. I知 guessing small improvements in multiple areas with little to no downside compared to the prior design. Since the optical layout is basically the same I知 thinking sample variability will be the same unless they improved the design for manufacturability.

If anything the reviews made me less interested in a GMii thinking it is physically larger than I would want. Besides size and weight, my main complaint with sigma ver 1 was autofocus accuracy. Tony Northrop mentioned focus accuracy is not on the same level as the GM. That seems to be a common finding by him for the sigma linear motors vs the GM linear motors. I知 wondering if there are some limitations in the communications protocol that are used by third party or maybe they don稚 have the phase signal vs motor command as dialed in as it needs to be.

I知 somewhat tempted to order the 24-70 and try it out vs the Tamron 28-75. Just wish sigma would also focus on reducing the size of the hood, not just the lens.



May 17, 2024 at 07:15 PM
corposant
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II


Steve Spencer wrote:
You are comparing apples to oranges a bit when you compare the Sigma 14-24 f/2.8 to the Tamron 17-28 f/2.8. The better Sigma lens to compare to that Tamron is in my view the Sigma 16-28 f/2.8 Contemporary. That Lens is $840 and very similar in cost to the Tamron lens. I think it is nice that Sigma has the choice of the wider higher quality lens in the 14-24 and the cheaper but still competent 16-28. I don't think it makes much sense to compare the Tamron 17-28 to the Sigma 14-24.

Keep in mind Sigma also has
...Show more

I didn稚 even know about these other Sigma lenses - not sure how anybody can keep track of all these choices!




May 17, 2024 at 07:40 PM
Fboss
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II


Another example of strong rainbow LoCA :
https://youtu.be/t4JbX2c0kGU?si=Sb4j0OYHZ28lGmKk&t=544
(copy/paste the link to go directly to the sample at t=544)




May 18, 2024 at 09:34 AM
Dave Sanders
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II


Fboss wrote:
Another example of strong rainbow LoCA :
https://youtu.be/t4JbX2c0kGU?si=Sb4j0OYHZ28lGmKk&t=544
(copy/paste the link to go directly to the sample at t=544)



Yeah, wow, that's something. Couple that with Christopher Frost's samples as well...it's almost like an intentional rainbow effect! Maybe it's a feature...

Otherwise an excellent lens, with size and performance that would mostly match my needs. I have a L25/L85 combo for landscapes, so ultimate corner sharpness isn't a big deal...but that LoCA...damn. I hated that on my 55/1.8, so I can't imagine I'd like it here.



May 18, 2024 at 01:32 PM
Fboss
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II


Dave Sanders wrote:
Yeah, wow, that's something. Couple that with Christopher Frost's samples as well...it's almost like an intentional rainbow effect! Maybe it's a feature...

Otherwise an excellent lens, with size and performance that would mostly match my needs. I have a L25/L85 combo for landscapes, so ultimate corner sharpness isn't a big deal...but that LoCA...damn. I hated that on my 55/1.8, so I can't imagine I'd like it here.


In this one
https://youtu.be/M75ITgjw_EE?si=weI_oELFVVtzLd_0&t=466 (copy/paste to see the LoCA test directly), it doesn't really look worse than the 24-70 GMII.




May 18, 2024 at 04:10 PM
sismailian
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II


Hmm that's a bit disappointing to see such sample variation that it doesn't give a better picture if the mark ii is better. Well at least it has improved flare performance which is important, and some extra features.

Sony did such an amazing job with the gm ii especially on the weight and size aspect on top of the incredible performance it proves. I don't think I've ever seen a better 24-70 2.8 and it looks like it will keep that position still. Glad I got a golden copy.



May 21, 2024 at 05:12 PM
jimmy462
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II


The kind folks over at The-Digital-Picture have compiled their Image Quality test images for comparisons, here, all queued up at 24mm @f/2.8 for the Sony folks reading along with the FE 24-70mm GM II tested on the Alpha 1 for both...

Sigma 24-70mm F2.8 DG DN II Art Lens Image Quality
https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=1692&Camera=1538&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=1611&CameraComp=1538&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0

..."no love" for we L-mount folks who would love to see the performance with our native no-OLPF sensors.



May 22, 2024 at 06:58 AM
j4nu
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II


jimmy462 wrote:
The kind folks over at The-Digital-Picture have compiled their Image Quality test images for comparisons, here, all queued up at 24mm @f/2.8 for the Sony folks reading along with the FE 24-70mm GM II tested on the Alpha 1 for both...

Sigma 24-70mm F2.8 DG DN II Art Lens Image Quality
https://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=1692&Camera=1538&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=1611&CameraComp=1538&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0

..."no love" for we L-mount folks who would love to see the performance with our native no-OLPF sensors.


Interesting comparison! Sigma is actually very close to the GMII, even edges it out at 24mm I'd say... (which was the case with 1st version too AFAIR).



May 22, 2024 at 09:38 AM
Fboss
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II


The consensus is Mark ii has improved: focus speed, aperture ring, resistance to flare, and sharpness in some cases. (+ maybe the rendering, at least according to Petapixel). A very compelling option.
After trying 3 samples of the GMII (there is some sample variation and they seem to be all tilted to some degree, can't get a uniform sharp landscape image at > 50mm), I'm tempted to pre-order the new Sigma.



May 22, 2024 at 10:14 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 DG DN II


sismailian wrote:
Hmm that's a bit disappointing to see such sample variation that it doesn't give a better picture if the mark ii is better. Well at least it has improved flare performance which is important, and some extra features.

Sony did such an amazing job with the gm ii especially on the weight and size aspect on top of the incredible performance it proves. I don't think I've ever seen a better 24-70 2.8 and it looks like it will keep that position still. Glad I got a golden copy.


The extent of sample variation is very difficult to determine without testing a large number of lenses. Ideally you would want to test at least 50 lenses and nobody does that as far as I know. As zooms are complex we can, however, expect more sample variation.



May 22, 2024 at 10:21 AM
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