p.21 #1 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
I think it depends on how you shoot, what kind of subjects and conditions, and how acceptable you find that sometimes one needs to adjust the AF area mode to get the desired results.
I photograph a lot of people (events, portraits, sports, music) and when I go through the images it is very unusual to find a shot not in focus on the eye. However, I undestand the limitations of the system and can work around them by adjusting the focus area mode as needed. I think the big improvement over the current tech basically requires Nikon to implement cross-type sensors (like Canon recently did in their R1 and Olympus/OM Digital have earlier done). This makes the phase-detection neutral to the orientation of the detail. Another way around problems with AF and subject position in the feame would be to use dual or quad-pixel AF but those would lead to reduced image resolution given a photodiode size available or if increasing photodiode count to 90 million, one could retain 45 MP image resolution but then the camera would need to deal with all that data. Eventually I think we will get improvements to the AF technology over what is currently used by Nikon but I don't think there is anything that they can do on the firmware side to improve the focus substantially. But, if you're willing to work with the system using single point, 9-point dynamic area, and various sizes of wide area AF then you can almost always get perfect focus, with the exception of some situations such as when there is brightly lit contrasty vertical lines that the phase-detection picks up instead of a backlit face or animal.
Would these issues cause me to consider other brands? No. Will I buy a new Nikon camera with cross-type AF sensors to improve the performance in those fringe cases where there is a problem? Yes, definitely, but this could take a few years. Given the R1's cross-type sensors and overall advantages of the dual-pixel AF, I think Nikon will have to consider this in the Z9 II and Z8 II implementations.
wind30 wrote:
Has this been improved yet? I am looking to get a z8 and I have a a7r5 which works perfectly with subject recognition. I am wondering how serious this is?
p.21 #3 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
FWIW this fellow compares the AF of the A9iii and A1 from Sony with the new Z6iii's AF in low light and the Z6iii seems to be better than both of these in this particular test. He is far from a technical expert but is far from being a complete idiot either. Just one more data point to consider.
p.21 #4 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
I don't think anyone would take photos of people at f/16 unless it is a question of a tight head shot with studio flash.
I think the OP's issue is worse with an f/4 lens than the Nikon f/2.8 S-line zooms or f/1.8 primes which focus excellently in low light in my experience. Mirrorless camera AF can really benefit from wide apertures but in Nikon's implementation this advantage requires also shooting at the wide aperture. Focusing with the lens stopped down in low light can be a challenge for the system. For me, since I mostly shoot wide open, it rarely fails.
ronno wrote:
It also depends on how you shoot. If you’re always shooting an F / 16 then you probably won’t notice the missed focus when shooting stills.
p.21 #5 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
snapsy wrote:
I though of a potential workaround to allow Z's to focus at larger apertures.
Interesting idea. But then the question becomes "do some of the Z lenses have severe focus shift? surely Nikon didn't implement this stop down focusing because they *wanted* to limit the light reaching the EVF--there must have been a reason".
p.21 #6 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
Lee Saxon wrote:
Interesting idea. But then the question becomes "do some of the Z lenses have severe focus shift? surely Nikon didn't implement this stop down focusing because they *wanted* to limit the light reaching the EVF--there must have been a reason".
Most of the focus shift in affected lenses occurs within the first stop or so from fully-open, so the technique can still be used on those lens by setting the aperture appropriately.
p.21 #7 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
Hi! Thank you for all your great work and insights.
I had my mind set on entering the Z system and getting a Z8 and/or maybe a z6iii for my portrait work which is mainly of children in outdoor available light context (not exactly dark night but golden hour/against the sun/sometimes sunsets). I would use the cameras 90 per cent or more for that purpose and shoot wide open with 1.8 or 1.2 glass. Actually, after what I heard in some YouTube videos about no good eye AF, I eventually landed here and would GREATLY appreciate your input on whether you think that, given my requirements, I could decently invest into the system or should rather go with something else like Canon or Sony. Thanks a lot!!
p.21 #8 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
If you can borrow or rent a camera like the one you are considering, you should be able to test if it fits your needs. Since some of us get 99%+ in focus in our normal shooting and others seem to get only a minority in focus, the only way to answer your question is test the equipment in your real-world shooting conditions before buying. Unfortunately, sometimes it takes some time to get to know the equipment well and to find optimal techniques and settings, so a short rental might not give a conclusive answer.
Bernard has reported his experiences with f/1.2 lenses. I have not used the Z f/1.2 lenses but I have very good experiences with the f/1.8 primes. I think it's safe to say that people who have gear problems tend to talk about them a lot on gear forums but those who get good results without problems don't report those nearly as often as they just carry on shooting. The internet tends to be a great problem amplifier.
CarlRichard wrote:
Hi! Thank you for all your great work and insights.
I had my mind set on entering the Z system and getting a Z8 and/or maybe a z6iii for my portrait work which is mainly of children in outdoor available light context (not exactly dark night but golden hour/against the sun/sometimes sunsets). I would use the cameras 90 per cent or more for that purpose and shoot wide open with 1.8 or 1.2 glass. Actually, after what I heard in some YouTube videos about no good eye AF, I eventually landed here and would GREATLY appreciate your input on whether you think that, given my requirements, I could decently invest into the system or should rather go with something else like Canon or Sony. Thanks a lot!!...Show more →
p.21 #9 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
I shot the Z6III in indoor light yesterday. Despite what some say my hit rate was very good. Not quite up to what I am used to with the A1 but they are different class of cameras. That said, I would be content with the hit rate, the DR, Resolution, the ergonomics, and workflow with the Z6III in most use cases.
Here is an attempt to answer exactly the question you are asking. The Nikon guys will say that these people are biased against Nikon. Maybe true, probably not, but take that into consideration. For sure, it is no longer their preferred camera brand like it once was.
p.21 #10 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
I really wanted to get Z8, and it seems it is totally clear now, Nikon has a problem. What is not clear, why so many people pretending the problem does not exists. And the most important question, why Nikon does not do anything about it? OK, photographers are taking pictures not only of people, but come on! $3800 for a camera that cannot properly focus on a human eye? Until we'll send a signal to these companies, they will keep selling us pipe dreams.... This is sad, Nikon should send a "we are sorry" cards with at least $500 check to all Nikon users... Imagine, you bought a new car, but at night, the lights are turning off by itself. And a car company would not do anything about it. It is not exactly the same situation here, but you got my point...
p.21 #11 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
tester_V wrote:
I really wanted to get Z8, and it seems it is totally clear now, Nikon has a problem. What is not clear, why so many people pretending the problem does not exists. And the most important question, why Nikon does not do anything about it? OK, photographers are taking pictures not only of people, but come on! $3800 for a camera that cannot properly focus on a human eye? Until we'll send a signal to these companies, they will keep selling us pipe dreams.... This is sad, Nikon should send a "we are sorry" cards with at least $500 check to all Nikon users... Imagine, you bought a new car, but at night, the lights are turning off by itself. And a car company would not do anything about it. It is not exactly the same situation here, but you got my point... ...Show more →
I've never had a shoot ruined by this problem, nor found it more than a minor annoyance while culling and editing. It's also been explained 100 times how to avoid it completely, but thick headed oafs and trolls will of course skip right over those posts.
p.21 #12 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
tester_V wrote:
I really wanted to get Z8, and it seems it is totally clear now, Nikon has a problem. What is not clear, why so many people pretending the problem does not exists. And the most important question, why Nikon does not do anything about it? OK, photographers are taking pictures not only of people, but come on! $3800 for a camera that cannot properly focus on a human eye? Until we'll send a signal to these companies, they will keep selling us pipe dreams.... This is sad, Nikon should send a "we are sorry" cards with at least $500 check to all Nikon users... Imagine, you bought a new car, but at night, the lights are turning off by itself. And a car company would not do anything about it. It is not exactly the same situation here, but you got my point... ...Show more →
I gotta wonder what the problem is ? I just shot almost 1000 photos for a client with the 85 1.2 , almost all at 1.2 , I don't see any missed eyeballs. Guess it depends on what you are shooting , I also shoot birds at dusk and dawn and it keeps up well. Is the Canon better, yeah most likely , but the lenses ... oh the lenses. At least for wild life , it just aint worth the switch to me. Everyone has different criteria.
p.21 #13 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
tester_V wrote:
I really wanted to get Z8, and it seems it is totally clear now, Nikon has a problem. What is not clear, why so many people pretending the problem does not exists. And the most important question, why Nikon does not do anything about it? OK, photographers are taking pictures not only of people, but come on! $3800 for a camera that cannot properly focus on a human eye? Until we'll send a signal to these companies, they will keep selling us pipe dreams.... This is sad, Nikon should send a "we are sorry" cards with at least $500 check to all Nikon users... Imagine, you bought a new car, but at night, the lights are turning off by itself. And a car company would not do anything about it. It is not exactly the same situation here, but you got my point... ...Show more →
The people pretending the problem doesn’t exist are the vast majority of Nikon users who don’t have the problem.
p.21 #14 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
JustShootMe wrote:
I gotta wonder what the problem is ? I just shot almost 1000 photos for a client with the 85 1.2 , almost all at 1.2 , I don't see any missed eyeballs. Guess it depends on what you are shooting , I also shoot birds at dusk and dawn and it keeps up well. Is the Canon better, yeah most likely , but the lenses ... oh the lenses. At least for wild life , it just aint worth the switch to me. Everyone has different criteria.
From my experience and other people’s posts from the past few months, the issues seem to arise more when shooting with slower lenses and with lower light.
Shooting at 1.2 in daylight would not show the issue per se.
Shooting with an F4 lens indoors is more likely to produce the problem. Especially if the lighting is not ideal.
For example, in my experience with the Z8 and the Canon R5 side-by-side each with f/4.0 lenses indoors, the Canon would nail focus regardless, and the Z8 would indicate that it is focused, but then the resulting photo is blurry. This is with the latest Z8 firmware.
Aside from the above, my real issue with the Nikon was when shooting video, ridiculously poor auto focus even in daylight.
And I love the Z8, but did not keep it for the above reasons. Focus is obviously more important than dynamic range and the other stuff people get crazy about in forums, if the thing is not in focus then who cares about the other image characteristics (D.R., colors, etc etc.)?
p.21 #15 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
1bwana1 wrote:
I shot the Z6III in indoor light yesterday. Despite what some say my hit rate was very good. Not quite up to what I am used to with the A1 but they are different class of cameras. That said, I would be content with the hit rate, the DR, Resolution, the ergonomics, and workflow with the Z6III in most use cases.
Here is an attempt to answer exactly the question you are asking. The Nikon guys will say that these people are biased against Nikon. Maybe true, probably not, but take that into consideration. For sure, it is no longer their preferred camera brand like it once was.
...Show more →
Why would you share that junk video lmao. Their bias is clear to me (motive is also there) and it’s now affecting how they test and report on YouTube.
p.21 #16 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
tester_V wrote:
I really wanted to get Z8, and it seems it is totally clear now, Nikon has a problem. What is not clear, why so many people pretending the problem does not exists. And the most important question, why Nikon does not do anything about it? OK, photographers are taking pictures not only of people, but come on! $3800 for a camera that cannot properly focus on a human eye? Until we'll send a signal to these companies, they will keep selling us pipe dreams.... This is sad, Nikon should send a "we are sorry" cards with at least $500 check to all Nikon users... Imagine, you bought a new car, but at night, the lights are turning off by itself. And a car company would not do anything about it. It is not exactly the same situation here, but you got my point... ...Show more →
Who is it a problem for? People that want to go against the preferred look and have the back eye in focus or those who want to ignore how to circumvent the issue. Didn’t the OP determine his issues to be a flash TTL bug.
p.21 #17 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
ronno wrote:
From my experience and other people’s posts from the past few months, the issues seem to arise more when shooting with slower lenses and with lower light.
Shooting at 1.2 in daylight would not show the issue per se.
Shooting with an F4 lens indoors is more likely to produce the problem. Especially if the lighting is not ideal.
For example, in my experience with the Z8 and the Canon R5 side-by-side each with f/4.0 lenses indoors, the Canon would nail focus regardless, and the Z8 would indicate that it is focused, but then the resulting photo is blurry. This is with the latest Z8 firmware.
Aside from the above, my real issue with the Nikon was when shooting video, ridiculously poor auto focus even in daylight.
And I love the Z8, but did not keep it for the above reasons. Focus is obviously more important than dynamic range and the other stuff people get crazy about in forums, if the thing is not in focus then who cares about the other image characteristics (D.R., colors, etc etc.)?...Show more →
“Ridiculously poor video af with good light?” I find Z8 video af to surprisingly be one of the strengths vs other brands I’ve used.
p.21 #18 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
I also have found the Z8 to have excellent video AF in daylight. Even when the subject is moving and the camera is moved with a gimbal, the focus stays on really well (e.g. with the Z 35/1.8 or 50/1.8 lenses). With telephoto, I've used the 70-200/2.8 on a fluid head with tripod and although while I felt during the shooting that the approaching subject didn't stay in focus the whole time, the actual footage when viewed on computer was perfectly in focus.
Buckeye2604 wrote:
“Ridiculously poor video af with good light?” I find Z8 video af to surprisingly be one of the strengths vs other brands I’ve used.
p.21 #20 · Z8 extremely unreliable/inconsistent AF in mildly low light
Buckeye2604 wrote:
“Ridiculously poor video af with good light?” I find Z8 video af to surprisingly be one of the strengths vs other brands I’ve used.
Indeed Buckeye, I think inconsistency with this camera is the issue here.
I have no doubt that some people have great experiences, but some of us don’t.
I’ve had times where the Z8 would simply stop focusing at all during video (servo)… Just not focus on anything until I turn it off and back on.
This happened a number of times and I was baffled, then I tried it at home just to confirm that I was seeing what I thought I was seeing:
This happened when I was shooting landscapes and various other things, that is what prompted this little test.
With the camera like the Canon, it is close to 100% *repeatable*, which makes it a lot more attractive as a professional tool when I’m shooting a job.
And now the R5 II is even better.
I also have a Sony A1, but have not shot much video with that. Battery life is miserable on that thing 😂.
